Aircoach Dublin-Cork express

devnull

They've 'updated' a few more pages on their site thanks to the Ballsbridge changes it seems as well, but many of them have been done in a quite lazy way similar to the way the Cork one was done lacking attention to detail.

They've also removed all of those FAQ's that are hopelessly out of date, rather than actually updating them, they removed out of date text from the "Our Coaches" page but not updated the existing text they've left there to mention Wifi for instance.

Speaking of Ballsbridge, they forgot to change this page:
http://www.aircoach.ie/table.routes.dublin.citycentre.php

This page is good however:
http://www.aircoach.ie/table.routes.ballsbridge.php

Similar error to the Cork one here (look at the first table)
http://www.aircoach.ie/aircoach.fares.php

They removed Ballsbridge, but didn't fix the spelling error right next to the word:
http://www.aircoach.ie/coach.bus.transport.dublin.airport.service.php

I was hoping when they updated the site due to the Ballsbridge changes they'd fix all of the existing errors, some are still there, some new ones have been created, some out of date info has been left there, whereas other things have simply been removed totally rather than brought up to date.

Attention to detail fail. Again.

devnull

They appear to have fixed all those issues and even updated the 'Our Coaches' page to mention Wifi, hopefully someone has been reading here and has finally come around!

With the BE strike on, it seems that Aircoach have added a lot of extra capacity:
https://twitter.com/alansmith90/status/333505202940436480

bk

devnull wrote: »

With the BE strike on, it seems that Aircoach have added a lot of extra capacity:
https://twitter.com/alansmith90/status/333505202940436480

I'm really surprised by this!

I assumed that BE had already lost most of their Cork to Dublin passengers to Aircoach and GoBE already. Unless like you mentioned in the other thread, GoBE passengers assuming that GoBE is also effected by the strike.

Great news for Aircoach, not only lots of nice extra revenue, but also an opportunity for them to show off their service to BE passengers and potentially gain lots of new long term customers.

Just a pity they don't have a fleet of new toilet equipped coaches to really impress.

I also expect Aircoach will do very well to Belfast, where the BE/Ulsterbus is cut in half, with only Ulsterbus services running. I expect even with Ulsterbus still running, because Busaras is closed, many will assume that this service isn't running at all and they will go for Aircoach instead. This could be particularly damaging for BE/Ulsterbus, as I've gotten the impression that the Aircoach service to Belfast hadn't taken off as well as the Cork service as BE/Ulsterbus are much more competitive on this route (faster journey time, 24 hour hourly schedule).

Specially with the Aircoach service being about 15 minutes faster, good opportunity for them to show off.

This is the foolishness of a BE strike that I mentioned in the BE strike thread, potentially driving the remaining BE passengers to private operators. Really couldn't come at a worse time for BE.

BenShermin

devnull wrote: »

They appear to have fixed all those issues and even updated the 'Our Coaches' page to mention Wifi, hopefully someone has been reading here and has finally come around!

With the BE strike on, it seems that Aircoach have added a lot of extra capacity:
https://twitter.com/alansmith90/status/333505202940436480

Do Aircoach still have the "stage carriage" licence between Dublin and Cork I wonder. The strike will leave a lot of people on the BÉ X8 corridor without any bus, a good niche for a private.

devnull

The Aircoach Belfast route is not very well known though so I'd be surprised if it was that much of a benefit. Especially when they have no information at the bus stop or even any timetable there, although apparently that is not down to them. I'd hope the shop they have is open though and staff are actively being seen around the stop.

The Bus service is ran with CIE and Translink in Partnership through their subsidiaries and the train service is ran by their subsidiaries too,, so I'd be surprised if they were not being directed to the trains, since it would be in the interests of both parent groups to do that even if there are better options for passengers.

There are still a number of people who are taking Bus Eireann end to end, be that free travel pass holders who had to pay on GoBE and Aircoach, students who had special tickets, passengers who bought those special offer tickets recently as well as the ones who think GoBE is Bus Eireann. There are also some people who would only ever travel with a state company no matter what.

The fact is, even if only a small number of customers find out about, and switch to private operators this is more income lost for BE and this is why long term this strike isn't good for anyone, the longer it continues the better it is for the privates.

BenShermin wrote: »

Do Aircoach still have the "stage carriage" licence between Dublin and Cork I wonder. The strike will leave a lot of people on the BÉ X8 corridor without any bus, a good niche for a private.

I just checked on the NTA license list previously they had two Dublin to Cork licenses now they have one, so I would suggest the multi-stop one has lapsed.

bk

It is a pity that their Cork multi-stop license has lapsed, would have been a good opportunity for Aircoach.

I assume free travel pass users would switch over to Irish Rail (not really a win for them). I doubt many, if any free travel pass people take BE city to city, been able to take the train for free, and free travel pass users were probably on the other stops between the cities.

I suppose there could be some folks using BE with tax saver tickets, do Aircoach/GoBE take tax saver scheme, maybe a missed opportunity for them there.

I'd hate to be a GoBE driver today, there are going to be lots of arguments with passengers with BE tickets and maybe free travel passes trying to use them on GoBE.

I think GoBus partnering with BE may really end up biting them. Think they would have done better on their own.

I'm not so sure about the Aircoach Belfast service, certainly Aircoach could have done a way better job marketing it, but I think many regular travellers to Belfast might have been aware of it but not bothered to use it due to relatively little difference. Now with the strike they might seek it out and give it a try.

To be honest if I was Aircoach, I'd send some of the ticket sellers over to Busaras with a bill board and sell tickets there and direct people to the Aircoach stop. Fantastic chance for Aircoach to really sell this service.

TINA1984

bk wrote: »

To be honest if I was Aircoach, I'd send some of the ticket sellers over to Busaras with a bill board and sell tickets there and direct people to the Aircoach stop. Fantastic chance for Aircoach to really sell this service.

I have no doubt the biys in the union picketing the place would have no problem whatsoever with them doing that :pac:

bk

TINA1984 wrote: »

I have no doubt the biys in the union picketing the place would have no problem whatsoever with them doing that :pac:

And as long as it is on the public streets, what exactly could they do about it?

devnull

Don't think it's a good idea myself when there is a strike going on, will just stir up tensions.

TINA1984

bk wrote: »

And as long as it is on the public streets, what exactly could they do about it?

they'll probably be verbally abused by the picketers at the very least, mobs are like that.

devnull

Indeed, it's really not worth it, I wouldn't want to cross a picket for the same reason even if I didn't agree with a strike, you'd be called a scab and everything.

Padraig Mor

Is Aircoach becoming a victim of its own success? I caught the 17.30 Dublin Airport - Cork service on Monday and was rather less impressed than I have been previously (it's been several months since I used the service). Bus took on about 20 passengers at the airport before heading to the city centre, where our arrival was greeted with scenes reminiscent of the last chopper out of Saigon. A large number of people were waiting and what could best be described as a scrum developed as the bus pulled up, complete with people pushing, shoving and near fights. The bus driver had to physically push people out of the way to get the luggage doors open while being shouted and screamed at in assorted languages. After much hassle with boarding (including one lady who disembarked against the boarding passengers to pick up the baby she had left with a stranger while she brought her multiple bags onboard!), the bus left to angry shouts from some of the 20 or so passengers left behind. The bus was completely full and, while I'm sure this is great for Aircoach's revenue, it simply not comfortable for passengers on a long journey. The bus had no toilet, which I believe makes it the Jonckheere often cited here as being perhaps the most spacious bus on the route. Including a stop in Urlingford, the journey from airport to Cork took 4 hours, half an hour more than scheduled. It's worth noting that the goBE bus which left Dublin Airport 30 minutes after our Aircoach pulled up across the river in Cork within five minutes of us.

BenShermin

I've seen similar scenes on Westmorland Street on Friday evenings. While this scrum for the Cork bus occurs the bus stop also serves several other operators and routes. Something needs to be done about this mess before we've another Wellington Quay tragedy on our hands. It's going to get even worse when Luas BXD works start up.

The boarding of Go Bus, Wexford Bus and Bus Éireann at George's Quay is a much more civilised affair. Coaches there have their own dedicated set down area well away from traffic and the area is much safer for passengers.

As a matter of priority for safety reasons I think the 145 bus stop at Aston Quay should be moved to Westmoreland Street and the Dublin Coach/Cork Aircoach stop moved to Aston Quay. There's dedicated set down areas here with plenty of room for coaches to deal with 50+ boarding passengers.


The whole toilet situation with Aircoach is a joke. In my experience the coaches that do have toilets are prone to bad odours, the ones without toilets are almost guaranteed to be 15 to 30mins delayed at Urlingford. I'm happy to pay the extra €4 return to travel GoBÉ every time, their service beats Aircoach hands down IMO.

devnull

The Jonckheere is the biggest capacity bus on the route and is normally assigned to the busiest times to take the most people possible on those journeys, as stated before, booking online is the only way to guarantee a seat and if enough book online a second coach will be provided pretty much all the time and even when this isn't the case sometimes a second is provided.

As stated on here before, with the leasing situation (long leases signed in the boom) being the way it is with Aircoach, I'd say there is unlikely to be any change in the arrangement of coaches on that route until some of them come to an end. If they did acquire some more coaches they'd just make others redundant that they are paying for in leases which have a while to run, which would increase costs hugely.

The 6 coaches with toilet came from the parent company who no longer required vehicles with a toilet so they were sent to Dublin. As these were owned vehicles by the parent company sending them to Aircoach didn't change the cost base whereas leasing six new coaches with toilets would have vastly increased it. The Jonck's were never ordered with inter-city services in mind, but because of falling demand on the airport routes they had to be assigned elsewhere, since the company were committed to paying for them.

When I've stopped at Urlingford it's only been delayed 10-15 minutes.

bk

Yes, I think the Aircoach service to Cork has been a massive success and has gone way beyond Aircoaches expectations and that yes it is having serious growing pains.

I think they desperately need to change their online booking system so that you can book on the same day up to 30 minutes in advance. This will encourage more people to book online and give Aircoach a better idea of expected loadings so that can call in an extra coach when needed.

It also looks like they might need to buy/lease in some new double decker coaches to meet the demand.

Citylink to Galway and Dublin Coach to Limerick both use double decker intercity coaches at peak time.

BenShermin wrote: »

The whole toilet situation with Aircoach is a joke. In my experience the coaches that do have toilets are prone to bad odours, the ones without toilets are almost guaranteed to be 15 to 30mins delayed at Urlingford. I'm happy to pay the extra €4 return to travel GoBÉ every time, their service beats Aircoach hands down IMO.

Agreed. They really need to get new coaches and sort this mess out.

It will probably happen eventually. Their are also big fuel savings to make by getting new coaches. Citylink has all new 2013 coaches for this reason, even though their previous fleet were pretty young Jonckheeres.

devnull

bk wrote: »

It also looks like they might need to buy/lease in some new double decker coaches to meet the demand.

Now that would be a financial risk that I wouldn't say is worth taking right at the moment. Those double deckers both operators seem to quite a bit more time off the road than their single deck counterparts and have little luggage space and the Dublin Coach ones are far less comfortable than their double deck versions. Then you need to explore if their height would fit in the depot or preclude them from operating any route.

An overdecker such as what Citylink are bringing in may be more possible, but again it depends on costs and really only Vanhool will be in that market right now unless the upcoming Plaxton version is any good, which I doubt it is since most Plaxton coaches are not considered at the top of coach building.

Agreed. They really need to get new coaches and sort this mess out.It will probably happen eventually. Their are also big fuel savings to make by getting new coaches. Citylink has all new 2013 coaches for this reason, even though their previous fleet were pretty young Jonckheeres.

The fuel savings over those 2008/2009 Jonck's will be a few percent if that, there really would not be any big cost saving to be had by changing them and it could possibly even be weighed out by the time you lease new coaches which may or may not be expensive.

As I said before, when coaches come up for renewal there is a chance you'll see new coaches and a number and spec that is more suited to the services they are working, but also giving the company some flexibility as well in the future so they don't pin themselves down one road.

Citylink's coaches that have returned were all coming to the end of their leases or were owned directly by Callinan coaches. Even if Citylink fail Callinan's can still use the coaches for their private hire services since I understand they have a balanced portfolio of of owned and leased vehicles, this means it's less of a financial risk going forward.

The changes have to be made in a sustainable way, it's all very well offering the newest coaches with every faculty under the sun, but if it sends the company deep into the red when it's survival could be at stake as it's took on far too much financial risk to do so then it's terrible judgement. I'm sure they want to improve the services, but it has to be done by what the company can realistically afford given it's financial position which is one of loss making.

We've seen with Bus Eireann the fact they are struggling financially after investing big money in new coaches and then had to ask the staff to take a cut because of the financial position less than a year later (whatever the rights or wrongs of the strike), Aircoach would not have the security or safety-net that such company has so they have to manage their business in a way that is sustainable and unfortunately that means keeping costs down as low as possible. I would suspect any investment will be looked at on a "How much return could we realistically get on it in the short to medium term" basis.

BenShermin

Does anyone know when the Aircoach Jonckheere leases come to an end?

With regards double decks, I travelled on one of these at the start of the month with GoBus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayats_Bravo

It was one of the most comfortable intercity coach trips I ever had. I also rate Bus Éireann's new double decks really high, although I've heard there's luggage storage problems on them.

devnull

Translink have a bunch of the Ayats in Northern Ireland since 2007/2008. Well known to be the most unreliable vehicle in the fleet by some distance some have already been withdrawn and are supposed to be awaiting sale due to the amount of problems they've had with them and drivers are supposed to be totally fed up with driving them and are reverting back to single deck coaches to replace them as they believe it's going to be more cost effective.

The trouble with less reliable coaches is the more unreliable a fleet is, the more coaches you need to cover for those that are off the road or broke down, you then need more drivers to rescue broken down services, or possibly hire in coaches from other operators, you then need to pay for towing and recovery costs, maintenance etc, it vastly drives costs up for the operator which could outweigh the whole benefits of the extra revenue achieved by running a larger vehicle anyway.

No idea when the Jonckheere leases come to an end but I'd guess late 2013/2014 at the earliest, the 2004 Setra's have been here for 9 years but I'd guess they had their leases renewed at some point (during the boom no doubt) as the 2003 Setra's departed at end of lease in late 2008 and early 2009.

Personally I haven't liked any twin deck coach I've been on apart from a new Vanhool overdecker similar to the one Citylink have and a German registered Setra double decker which still rates as the best vehicle I've ever been on of any type.

Padraig Mor

Should point out that I mention the Jonckheere not because I miss the bog (doesn't bother me, although I can see why it would others), but because I found the supposedly most comfortable coach on the route to be cramped and uncomfortable when full (although admittedly I ain't exactly petite!).

devnull

Well I've been on one completely full and never had a problem with it, although the Levante's with a toilet when full are not that comfortable.

The Jonck's have orange and blue full leather seats and are a much longer coach than the others but have around the same number of seats.

bk

Devnull, yes agree they aren't just going to buy/lease in new coaches while they still have the leases on the old coaches *

I think they might look at getting one or two over-decker or double decker immediately with the Cork service being so busy at peak time.

They seem to be putting on two or even three coaches at peak times on this route. Might make sense to save driver wages by using a new over-decker or double decker.

I wasn't suggesting that they immediately buy/lease in new coaches, but I would hope that they are planning to buy/lease in new toilet equipped coaches for the intercity routes as the leases for the Joncks and Setras come to an end. Hopefully this will happen over the next year.

* Unless they start another new route, Limerick perhaps, in which case they would need at least some new coaches.

devnull

bk wrote: »

I think they might look at getting one or two over-decker or double decker immediately with the Cork service being so busy at peak time.

They would need to attract high thousands of extra passengers on the capacity provided by the deckers over the course of the year to make that pay since there would need to be enough extra revenue to cover the full leasing cost of the company. That wound involve around 10,000 extra passengers per year for a couple of coaches just for the coach lease investment to break even.

That is a tall order bearing on mind such coach would only be able to add 24 seats or so over the Jonckheere it would replace and would only be able to operate a couple of peak services a day where capacity may be needed as the other ones would be off-peak.

If they wait until the leases are up the difference to the cost base becomes the difference between the cost of leasing the old coach and the new coach, adding something on it's own means the whole cost of that vehicle is added to the cost base.

They seem to be putting on two or even three coaches at peak times on this route. Might make sense to save driver wages by using a new over-decker or double decker.

Driver wages would not be a huge factor in this, the leasing costs would be a far bigger factor, there would be a point where this ceased to be yes, but I don' think Aircoach are near this yet.

The best way to do it right now is to wait it out, I can't see any coaches coming in, unless the company gets some investment, raises some money by asset sales or frees up budget by the ending of leases of existing coaches.

The Limerick run is a non starter, simply because again it will be heavily loss making at the start like any service is and the business really couldn't sustain another service like that at the moment. They need to reduce losses and that will involve taking no risks that could increase them.

Mikehaw

bk wrote: »

It will probably happen eventually. Their are also big fuel savings to make by getting new coaches. Citylink has all new 2013 coaches for this reason, even though their previous fleet were pretty young Jonckheeres.

Wrong
Citylink still operate 07 and 08 volvos on the Galway non stop run

Wrong
The fuel usage between a 9700 Volvo and a 131 daf is very very minimal, certainly not enough to warrant a 300k plus investment by Callahan so id say your speculation is well wide of the mark

bk

Mikehaw wrote: »

Wrong
Citylink still operate 07 and 08 volvos on the Galway non stop run

Not that I've seen, but I don't regularly use the service, perhaps they use them if a new coach needs to be taken out for cleaning/repair or as a second coach at a particularly busy time?

They certainly don't seem to be regular coaches.

Mikehaw wrote: »

Wrong
The fuel usage between a 9700 Volvo and a 131 daf is very very minimal, certainly not enough to warrant a 300k plus investment by Callahan so id say your speculation is well wide of the mark

That isn't what I've heard on the grapevine. If it isn't fuel, then why would Callahan spend 300k on a new coach. What benefit did they get in replacing such a relatively new fleet?

devnull

bk wrote: »

Not that I've seen, but I don't regularly use the service, perhaps they use them if a new coach needs to be taken out for cleaning/repair or as a second coach at a particularly busy time?

They are on it every day, I see them quite often, it just may be the times that you are around that you don't see them, there are nowhere near enough Vanhools to run the Galway service solely with them.

That isn't what I've heard on the grapevine. If it isn't fuel, then why would Callahan spend 300k on a new coach. What benefit did they get in replacing such a relatively new fleet?

Those Volvo vehicles I'm 99% certain are leased and from reports I've read those Vanhools are leased as well. Callinan's do a lot of sub-contract and private hire work and note originally some of those Vanhools were going to be operated on such services and were even operating for Citylink in Callinan's livery at one point.

Mikehaw

bk wrote: »

That isn't what I've heard on the grapevine. If it isn't fuel, then why would Callahan spend 300k on a new coach. What benefit did they get in replacing such a relatively new fleet?

What do you or I know about calahans lease arrangements? As usual you present your opinion as if it came from the ceo when you are really are basing on gossip.

You seem to be saying that calihan went out of his way to get rid of the joks(so assuming you think that he broke his leases early for which there is a substantial penalty for), entered a more expensively lease(vanhools are a more expensive bus) all to save a few bob on diesel?

bk

Mikehaw first of all your approach here is a little bit too much confrontational. You can make your point without it being so confrontational. We are all just volunteers posting here on this boards after all.

I'm not an expert and I've never claimed to be and I'm always open to learning new things.

If you have a better explanation, then please do share it rather then just attacking a poster.

currins_02

The Volvo 9700 is one of the most expensive vehicles on the road at present to purchase, price wise it is in the same ballpark as a two axle VanHool integral Alicron TX16 alowing for buyer preferences, spec etc.

The big thing killing Volvo since the introduction of the B12M/B12B and now the B9R/B13R is the poor fuel economy. Most operators are reporting fuel figures in the mid to high single figures. The big selling points of the 9700 were availability fo stock vehicles and availability of leasing/finance through Volvo finance when banks weren't entertaining bus operators. The 9700 as a concept is generally viewed as a failure in right hand drive markets failing to secure a single bulk order in the key market of the UK, in Ireland they met great favour with avowed Volvo buyer Callinan Coaches who were followed by GoBus (who previously subcontracted Callinan so was familiar with the product) and most recently the Bernard Kavanagh group. A few indepenents bought them. Mangan Tours of Donegal had a few but recently tweeted to other operators that they were disappointed by back up and hence moved away from the marque.

Callinan's engaged in a project in 2012 to identify an alternative to Volvo based on fuel economy and reliability. RUMOUR would have it that their Bova double deck coach with DAF power was returning better fuel economy than the Volvo's. They took an MAN powered VanHool integral and a DAF powered one which were identical in every way except the engine. The regs of those 2 are 12D5741 / 12C2566. After running them on Citylink, private hire and tours they opted for DAF power. Figures quoted were that at best the Volvo's return 8mpg (as low as 6mpg on bad work) while at worst the DAF VanHool gave just over 10mpg (as high as almost 14mpg on good work), a best case scenario difference of 2mpg. Based on every 100,000km that would mean that at 8mpg and todays average fuel price (149.9c inc VAT according to pumps.ie) it would cost €52,699.22 to run the Volvo (100,000km=62,500miles, 62,500miles/8mpg=7,812.5Gal, 7,812.5Gal=c35,156.25Ltr, 35,156.25Ltr*1.499€/ltr=€52,699.22). At 10mpg for every 100,000km it would cost €42,159.38 to run the VanHool (62,500miles/10mpg=6,250Gal, 6,250Gal=c28,125Ltr, 28,125Ltr*1.499€/Ltr=€42,159.38). It should be noted that there is no allowance there for ad-blue usage but by all accounts that is comparable between the DAF and Volvo.

Given that Callinan vehicles cover over 250,000km per annum on the service (up to 5 laps Dublin-Galway return every 2 days) then a cost figure would be €131,748.05 per annum for the Volvo for fuel and €105,398.45 per annum for the DAF VanHool. That is a potential annual difference of €26,349.60 per vehicle per annum. They have added 10 TX16 VanHools officially so far (source www.dttas.ie - 12 new 12 reg/131 reg VanHools, 2 of those are the TDX21 Altano's so 10 TX16's) so that is a potential annual saving of €263,496 approx. "Very very minimal"????? In my books the numbers are simple, by changing to the DAF's Callinan is saving over a quarter of a million per year on his fuel bill that's far from minimal.

Since Callinan's foundation in 1994 they have bought nothing except Volvo's until the DAF Bova decker (and that was only because Volvo couldn't supply an option suitable at that time). A number of the 08 vehicles have returned off lease anyway with 08G805 now with Bernard Kavanagh via Volvo Coach Sales in Coventry - don't know whether Kavanagh's have bought or leased it. The reality is such a volume buyer of the product and a commited customer is not moving for no reason- the fuel was the biggest issue. Bear in mind my figures are simplistic and actually biased towards the Volvo (yes 10mpg is the worst DAF's have reported allegedly averaging 12mpg while the Volvo 9700 will only get 8mpg max). As one Volvo sales rep said at last years NEC & Dublin Coach shows they "hope" the new B11R chassis (to replace the B13R for Euro 6 although available now in Euro 5) will acheive average fuel returns in double figures (i.e. 10+mpg), that rep accepted that while Volvo build a generally robust comfortable product they ahd lost ground in recessionary times due to worst in class fuel performance.

The Altano's are a different beast, there is nothing to compare to them on Irish roads but with a 510HP DAF engine they are allegedly (according to the drivers) averaging 14mpg on the service work which is primarily steady motorway cruising. I haven't compared the Altano is my figures as it is not possible to fairly compare a 68 seat over decker with a 50 odd seat single deck coach.

bk

Thanks for the detailed explanation currins_02, I had heard similar, but you have given a much better explanation then I ever could have.

If the Altano's can get 14mpg with 68 seats they seem like a superb coach, with excellent performance per passenger km.

I assume the only downside is that they are probably significantly more expensive to buy then the typical 50 seater?

But the overdecker does seem to be an exciting development in the coach industry.

Also isn't there a tax write-off benefit to operating a new coach on international tour duties for 6 months, before moving them over to intercity duty? This might explain why Callinan has 12 new coaches (easily enough to 100% cover the Galway intercity direct route) but are still running the odd older coach on the route.

monument

Mikehaw wrote: »

What do you or I know about calahans lease arrangements? As usual you present your opinion as if it came from the ceo when you are really are basing on gossip.

If you are used to BK's posts you should also be used to the rules around here including the one which says attack the post and not the poster.

If not read the charter before posting again.

Do not reply to this post.

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