Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:08am

Happyman42 wrote: »

What will happen if we can't raise the money?

We will raise the money, under more austere and worse conditions than the ESM.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:09am

Heads the ball wrote: »

Yeah i'd hate to see Germany get a bad deal; we should definitely draw the line there

It's not a bad deal to try to make me pay your debts, it's criminal.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 11:09am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

You implied earlier that they were actors within the EU, now you are saying the financial traders. If you are saying the traders are bottom feeders that will capitalize on others misery to make a quick buck, then we're totally in agreement.

We set up the ****ing mechanism that is attracting the bottom feeders (vultures) THE EURO!

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:11am

Happyman42 wrote: »

We set up the ****ing mechanism that is attracting the bottom feeders (vultures) THE EURO!

Yes yes, leave the euro and all will be rosy. At least you're honest that you hope a 'no' vote will precipitate the collapse of the Euro, if only Adams, Higgins & Boyd-Barrett were as honest.

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 11:11am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

It's not a bad deal to try to make me pay your debts, it's criminal.

The Germans have to be made realise that they are as responsible for the crisis as anyone.

Villain · 31-05-2012 11:13am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I don't believe we should have repayed bad bank debts, but that money is gone now and you want the German taxpayer to pick up the tab for some reason?

Why not the american tax payer, or the UK tax payer while we're at it? No? Just ze 'germans' because we all know they're the 'baddies' of everything.

You don't seem to understand that we don't have a 'hand'!

Any bank that bought Anglo bonds did so with Risk, we have now said we will bankrupt the country to pay those bonds back, well we can change our mind you know.

We have a hand to play it, a dangerous one perhaps but we have one, Simon Coveney even stated on TV3 the other night that IMF said we should have sought a write down?

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:15am

Happyman42 wrote: »

The Germans have to be made realise that they are as responsible for the crisis as anyone.

How, exactly?

carveone · 31-05-2012 11:15am

blowtorch wrote: »

Or - what's the justification for Irish taxpayers paying for the gambling debts of the German bankers?

Welcome to Casino Ireland where we guarantee your winnings. Special ongoing offer - Free bet, guaranteed winnings.

The way I see it is that it was US bankers not German ones. Which is probably why we ended up with carrying the can. Besides, it's spilt milk - say Bob cannot pay his credit card bill and I offer to cover that bill at low interest (or zero) so he can survive. It wouldn't be right for Bob to turn around and say that credit card bill was reckless lending by the bank (even if it was) and then refuse to pay me back on that basis.

Anyway - don't forget to leave boards.ie for 10 minutes and actually vote! We could argue this till the cows come home but it all looks very silly if we don't get out there, in the rain, and back up those arguments with our tick mark!

carveone · 31-05-2012 11:16am

Goddamn, you guys type fast

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:16am

Villain wrote: »

Any bank that bought Anglo bonds did so with Risk, we have now said we will bankrupt the country to pay those bonds back, well we can change our mind you know.

We have a hand to play it, a dangerous one perhaps but we have one, Simon Coveney even stated on TV3 the other night that IMF said we should have sought a write down?

Name the banks that bought Anglo bonds please, specifically ones in receipt of Irish taxpayer money? If you could go so far as to break them down by country of origin that would be great, thanks.

Max Power1 · 31-05-2012 11:17am

carveone wrote: »

Anyway - don't forget to leave boards.ie for 10 minutes and actually vote! We could argue this till the cows come home but it all looks very silly if we don't get out there, in the rain, and back up those arguments with our tick mark!

Yes (hehe especially if you intend voting no!)

Heads the ball · 31-05-2012 11:17am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

Yeah i'd hate to see Germany get a bad deal; we should definitely draw the line there

It's not a bad deal to try to make me pay your debts, it's criminal.

Why then is the Commission proposing that the ESM could be used to bail out other financial institutions?

Would the ESM be engaging in criminal activity?

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:17am

carveone wrote: »

Anyway - don't forget to leave boards.ie for 10 minutes and actually vote! We could argue this till the cows come home but it all looks very silly if we don't get out there, in the rain, and back up those arguments with our tick mark!

I can't vote!

beeftotheheels · 31-05-2012 11:17am

Happyman42 wrote: »

The Germans have to be made realise that they are as responsible for the crisis as anyone.

Because that's going to make them open their cheaque book?

No one is denying structural flaws in the euro. No one is denying that the EZ needs to change, and that change needs to involve Germany being a bit less German. But this treaty is part of the change required making it a sensible decision for Ireland to ratify it. And right now we need to bring the German's along, step by step, because we're asking them to depart from a national psyche since the era of the Hanseatic League (making things good - finance bad).

P!$$ing them off now, for no reason other than to p!$$ them off, how on earth is that going to inspire them to want to do more, rather than less, to save the euro?

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 11:18am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Yes yes, leave the euro and all will be rosy. At least you're honest that you hope a 'no' vote will precipitate the collapse of the Euro, if only Adams, Higgins & Boyd-Barrett were as honest.

Why are you using others percieved dishonesty to bolster your argument? You are the one who poo pooed conspiracy theories earlier. Let SF Higgins and Boyd Barrett have their say...you defend your own position.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:18am

Heads the ball wrote: »

Why then is the Commission proposing that the ESM could be used to bail out other financial institutions?

Would the ESM be engaging in criminal activity?

If there was no recourse to get the money back then possibly?

If they turned around to Ireland and said, hey you, you own this debt now after they had done it then certainly.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:20am

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why are you using others percieved dishonesty to bolster your argument? You are the one who poo pooed conspiracy theories earlier. Let SF Higgins and Boyd Barrett have their say...you defend your own position.

I'm just summarizing yours as 'leave the euro and it'll all be fine'.

That's not what this treaty is about though, so I can't defend a position on it, as I haven't taken one.

That's another conversation for another thread, probably in a different forum.

Heads the ball · 31-05-2012 11:22am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

Why then is the Commission proposing that the ESM could be used to bail out other financial institutions?

Would the ESM be engaging in criminal activity?

If there was no recourse to get the money back then possibly?

If they turned around to Ireland and said, hey you, you own this debt now after they had done it then certainly.

My understanding is there is no recourse

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 11:23am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

How, exactly?

By voting No to start with. Which would you prefer....telling the Germans to get around a table and take responsibility or watch our society tumble out of control back into the 1960's again?
Your the proponent of the EU, you are the one pointing to all it has done for us......you are now in favour of undoing all it has done for us???????????

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:26am

Happyman42 wrote: »

By voting No to start with. Which would you prefer....telling the Germans to get around a table and take responsibility or watch our society tumble out of control back into the 1960's again?
Your the proponent of the EU, you are the one pointing to all it has done for us......you are now in favour of undoing all it has done for us???????????

You're begging the question, your premise is your conclusion, I don't buy either.

beeftotheheels · 31-05-2012 11:26am

Heads the ball wrote: »

My understanding is there is no recourse

That understanding is wrong.

Check out Article 125 of the TFEU - while remaining a Member of the EU it is impossible to default on loan obligations to other EU Member States and EU bodies.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-05-2012 11:28am

Heads the ball wrote: »

My understanding is there is no recourse

Well then I don't know if I'd support that setup if that was the case, I don't think banks should become money pits.

That's not what we're voting on here though.

Heads the ball · 31-05-2012 11:30am

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

My understanding is there is no recourse

That understanding is wrong.

Check out Article 125 of the TFEU - while remaining a Member of the EU it is impossible to default on loan obligations to other EU Member States and EU bodies.

Thats a nice article but it doesnt address a situation where a country runs out of money and is unable to repay.

In that scenario we woul have no recourse.

carveone · 31-05-2012 11:30am

Heads the ball wrote: »

Why then is the Commission proposing that the ESM could be used to bail out other financial institutions?

Would the ESM be engaging in criminal activity?

I believe I was that was reported in the Guardian business blog as one of the mooted possibilities. But I see this posted yesterday:

"The option of a backdoor bailout for Bankia via the European Central Bank also seems to be closed. It was a cheeky idea anyway – stuff Bankia with government-backed IOUs and advise the bank to turn them into cash by offering them as collateral in Frankfurt. That soft-shoe shuffle won't be allowed if Germany says no."

Happyman42 · 31-05-2012 11:31am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I'm just summarizing yours as 'leave the euro and it'll all be fine'.

That's not what this treaty is about though, so I can't defend a position on it, as I haven't taken one.

That's another conversation for another thread, probably in a different forum.

I never said leave the Euro. I am saying we need to do something about the Euro as a Union....together, in EVERYONE'S mutual interest.
You fall back to the default Yes position...'that's not what this Treaty is about'....of course this Treaty is about the future of the Euro, it is everything to do with the future of the Euro.....what is this Treaty vainly trying to fix ffs!
You are talking nonssense if you are saying that a vote on this Treaty is not political...it is, no matter which way you vote.

Heads the ball · 31-05-2012 11:32am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

My understanding is there is no recourse

Well then I don't know if I'd support that setup if that was the case, I don't think banks should become money pits.

That's not what we're voting on here though.

What we are voting on is absolutely tied into the ESM. The preamble to the treaty references the ESM and the ESM is constantly touted by the yes side as the reason to vote yes

beeftotheheels · 31-05-2012 11:34am

Heads the ball wrote: »

Thats a nice article but it doesnt address a situation where a country runs out of money and is unable to repay.

In that scenario we woul have no recourse.

No, because in three, four, five years time when the country has money they have to start paying back (with interest).

A default (i.e. not making a payment) is different from a repudiation, in that the defaulted on debt is still there, and has to be paid at some point in time, or negotiated down with the consent of both parties.

Repudiations (saying you'll never pay the debt) are rare, and reserved for the likes of Cuba, North Korea and Bolsheveik Russia.

Villain · 31-05-2012 11:34am

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Name the banks that bought Anglo bonds please, specifically ones in receipt of Irish taxpayer money? If you could go so far as to break them down by country of origin that would be great, thanks.

LOL why ask a queston that you know the Government hasn't released the details on, it doesn't matter which banks or even which country those banks reside in, the points I made still stand.

Instead of asking questions which you know can't be answered why not reply to the fact that a Minister has told us the IMF said we should get a write down but our Taoiseach has said we haven't and won't ask for one!

Heads the ball · 31-05-2012 11:40am

carveone wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

Why then is the Commission proposing that the ESM could be used to bail out other financial institutions?

Would the ESM be engaging in criminal activity?

I believe I was that was reported in the Guardian business blog as one of the mooted possibilities. But I see this posted yesterday:

"The option of a backdoor bailout for Bankia via the European Central Bank also seems to be closed. It was a cheeky idea anyway – stuff Bankia with government-backed IOUs and advise the bank to turn them into cash by offering them as collateral in Frankfurt. That soft-shoe shuffle won't be allowed if Germany says no."

Rte reported last night that the commission is considering using the esm to bail banks.

What you are citing is the ecb. Not directly related to what we are discussing but noted.

Heads the ball · 31-05-2012 11:43am

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

Thats a nice article but it doesnt address a situation where a country runs out of money and is unable to repay.

In that scenario we woul have no recourse.

No, because in three, four, five years time when the country has money they have to start paying back (with interest).

A default (i.e. not making a payment) is different from a repudiation, in that the defaulted on debt is still there, and has to be paid at some point in time, or negotiated down with the consent of both parties.

Repudiations (saying you'll never pay the debt) are rare, and reserved for the likes of Cuba, North Korea and Bolsheveik Russia.

Ok. Theyll pay us when they are ready.

Not "recourse" in my book.

Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

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