Anyone have a daily driver Nissan Leaf?

ironclaw

Pkiernan wrote: »

"Expensive" is a subjective term.

I will have zero fuel costs, the equivalent for me of €5000 (pre-tax) savings per year. And that's at current petrol/diesel prices. When we hit €2 a litre (probably by the end of this year), that will go up to €7000 per year.


But I digress. I had asked for reviews from people who drive the Leaf.

I didn't ask for opinions from ill informed Jeremy Clarkson/Rush Limbaugh worshipers.

If you spend €25k, and save say €6000 avg per year. Even if you had everything for free, it would take 4 to 5 years to pay it back. And it won't be free. New batteries cost a small fortune I'm told (Much more than your saving anyway) And they will not be free to charge forever. Its the next revenue stream for the likes of ESB etc so they will have to capitalize on it. Add to that tires and servicing, I don't see any great advantage over a decent diesel.

Its like the vegetable oil conversions, a mate did the math on it and it would be close to 10 years before the cost were recouped, by which the car would have been knackers regardless. He was planning on using an older diesel Golf if I recall. Yes the oil was cheaper than diesel (Still is) but the cost of the conversion didn't make economic sense. The same applied when he costed actually making biodiesel. The best result came from using a standard diesel car and biodiesel. However its very heavy on injectors / lines (To the extent were VW tell you not to use it) so that cost has to be factored as well.

I'm all for eco, but there are other options that are just as good.

Pkiernan

Why on earth would do you care how much I save?

Mind your own business please.

If you read my first posts, I will get free charging for as long as I work for my employer.

Pkiernan

ironclaw wrote: »

New batteries cost a small fortune I'm told (Much more than your saving anyway) ... Add to that tires and servicing, I don't see any great advantage over a decent diesel.

...

I'm all for eco, but there are other options that are just as good.

So, it would appear that according to you:

1. New diesel turbos, DMF's and DPFs are free.
2. The tyres on diesel cars last forever.
3. You don't have to service your diesel car.

That changes everything - where can I get one of these cars?

Pkiernan

RoverJames wrote: »

Petrol is €1.64 ish/litre at the moment not €1.40ish/litre

OMG - I have been away too long. It's causing outrage at $4 per gallon here.

ironclaw

Pkiernan wrote: »

So, it would appear that according to you:

1. New diesel turbos, DMF's and DPFs are free.
2. The tyres on diesel cars last forever.
3. You don't have to service your diesel car.

That changes everything - where can I get one of these cars?

They don't. Thats not what I'm saying. But if you took a diesel car, and an electric car.

Saying they both cost €10k brand new.

The diesel over 5 years might run up a bill of €13000 (€100 every two weeks). The electric car, as your said would be free to charge for that period.

Tires, service etc would be comparable, so theres no point comparing them.

However to change the batteries could cost €10,000+ (€600 or so per cell) And Nissan themselves put a lifetime of around 5 years on them (10 years for 'short trips'). Not to mention the major inconvenience if you wanted to go on a long journey, which charging would then cost you. Lastly, given the micro market for electric cars, your resale prospects would be very slim in my eyes.

I appreciate cost isn't your major concern, which is a personal outlook I respect, but you could actually lose money based on a comparable conventional model.

EDIT: If you don't mind me asking, why do you want electric? Is it the free recharging or the eco aspect? Genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic.

Lon Dubh

Hi OP, here are 2 recent threads on electric cars you might be interested in (one of the posters has a Leaf)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056582106


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056580765

Zurich insurance also have a special insurance for electric cars, with some electric car specific breakdown assist things that look good (I don't know if other companies have this, I just came across it when I was looking for quotes on car insurance http://www.zurichinsurance.ie/car-insurance/electric-car-insurance.htm ).

I'd love an electric car myself but cannot afford to buy a new car, so will have to wait a while until second hand ones are on the market.

Bigus

Secondhand leafs seem very cheap in the uk and vrt is feck all so check out these first.:p

Sesshoumaru

Pkiernan wrote: »

Anyone actually drive one daily?

Do you like it?

Happy you got it?

What real world range are you getting?

I will have a round trip of about 100 km per day when I get back to our wonderful over taxed country.

I believe that I will get free charging at work (and better parking too).

I joined the dark side on April 21st 2011. After 3 months / 7500km I posted some of my thoughts about the car:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

That's probably a good place to start A few weeks to go until I've had it one year. I am going to do a one year report at that stage. But basically we've now covered 22,500 kilometers. I have a wife and 2 young kids, no other car but the Nissan Leaf. I do however own 1 motorcycle and one large scooter. After the extra mileage I'm now more impressed with the car than I was when I did the above post.

Your commute is 50km each way and you can charge at your work place, range wouldn't be an issue even if you couldn't charge at your workplace. However being able to charge at your workplace means you can be a little more carefree with your energy usage. You could set a preheating timer on the car or just activate it from the website or smartphone app a little bit before you leave your office. You could use your employers electricity to heat or cool your car before leaving for home.

In winter, real world range depends on how far you're going, do you need the heating on all the time and did you save some energy by preheating. But I've never seen less than 100km even on colder days and using the heating all the time.

In milder weather conditions we might get anywhere from 120km to 150km depending on whether it's predominantly motorway driving or city driving. I think the best we got on one charge in mild weather (which also included a fair bit of motorway) was about 154km with a mixture of slower country roads and faster motorway driving. That was my wife a few days after we got the car and she wanted to go to kildare village outlet. She missed the exit and continued for another 30km before she realised she'd gone by it. When she got home the battery was displaying 0%. Not bad range though considering we were pretty much driving it like our old diesel car at that stage.

Lon Dubh

I saw a forum here for UK leaf owners that might be interesting

http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/

I noticed from an article there that Nissan are working on a wireless charger. I wonder if this might be a future option for people living in flat complexes, to avoid the problem with cables going across footpaths to get to charging points?

RandomAccess

Lon Dubh wrote: »

I saw a forum here for UK leaf owners that might be interesting

http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/

I noticed from an article there that Nissan are working on a wireless charger. I wonder if this might be a future option for people living in flat complexes, to avoid the problem with cables going across footpaths to get to charging points?

Cables running everywhere could result in bumper profits for "claims direct" alright.
I thought the cables would be high-vis but apparently not?

Sesshoumaru

This is map of where the public charging points are located. It also tells you what type they are.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=http:%2F%2Fwww.esb.ie%2Felectric-cars%2Fkml%2Fall.kml&hl=en&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=10.098809,19.753418&vpsrc=0&t=m&z=7

RandomAccess

Bigus wrote: »

Secondhand leafs seem very cheap in the uk and vrt is feck all so check out these first.:p

Of those listed used on autotrader.co.uk the price range is £20-24k which is about €24-29k using xe.com

Used prices in Ireland on carzone are from €25-29k
The NEW price on carzone would appear to be about €32k, not sure if this is the price before the grant/rebate is applied?

So those in the UK don't seem to be all that much cheaper to me? (You would get that extra charger cable though if you bought a UK car.)

RandomAccess

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

This is map of where the public charging points are located. It also tells you what type they are.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=http:%2F%2Fwww.esb.ie%2Felectric-cars%2Fkml%2Fall.kml&hl=en&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=10.098809,19.753418&vpsrc=0&t=m&z=7

Some questions.
The ability to remote pre-heat the car via your smartphone for example, does this require you to have a sim card in the car or something? Or is there a datalink via the charge cable?

The reason I ask is because I was wondering does the in-car GPS leverage any realtime updates in relation to the charging network.

Such as,

Whether newly commissioned chargers are added to the map

Whether chargers that are offline due to a fault are communicated to the cars GPS

Similarly, it would be useful to know if a charger was occupied or not if you were in an area with other chargers available

Bigus

RandomAccess wrote: »

Of those listed used on autotrader.co.uk the price range is £20-24k which is about €24-29k using xe.com

Used prices in Ireland on carzone are from €25-29k
The NEW price on carzone would appear to be about €32k, not sure if this is the price before the grant/rebate is applied?

So those in the UK don't seem to be all that much cheaper to me? (You would get that extra charger cable though if you bought a UK car.)

Sorry they were a whole lot cheaper in the uk a few months ago . Now there is only 9 for sale in the uk and prices seem to have firmed up.

Sesshoumaru

RandomAccess wrote: »

Some questions.
The ability to remote pre-heat the car via your smartphone for example, does this require you to have a sim card in the car or something? Or is there a datalink via the charge cable?

The reason I ask is because I was wondering does the in-car GPS leverage any realtime updates in relation to the charging network.

Such as,

Whether newly commissioned chargers are added to the map

Whether chargers that are offline due to a fault are communicated to the cars GPS

Similarly, it would be useful to know if a charger was occupied or not if you were in an area with other chargers available

The car has a sim card built-in for data connectivity. So yes to your first question in your list, it goes online and checks for new charging stations. No to your second question, however the ESB ecars app for Android / iPhone does tell you if a charger is online or not. ESB ecars tell me they update this as soon as a fault becomes visible to them. Third question is no again, it is feature myself and other EV owners are requesting though.

You can also pre-heat the car even if it's not plugged in. Of course you are using battery power if you do so. Pre-heating on plug will turn off automatically after 120 minutes if you haven't gotten to the car and started it. On battery power pre-heating turns of automatically after 15 minutes if you haven't gotten to the car.

RandomAccess

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The car has a sim card built-in for data connectivity. So yes to your first question in your list, it goes online and checks for new charging stations. No to your second question, however the ESB ecars app for Android / iPhone does tell you if a charger is online or not. ESB ecars tell me they update this as soon as a fault becomes visible to them. Third question is no again, it is feature myself and other EV owners are requesting though.

You can also pre-heat the car even if it's not plugged in. Of course you are using battery power if you do so. Pre-heating on plug will turn off automatically after 120 minutes if you haven't gotten to the car and started it. On battery power pre-heating turns of automatically after 15 minutes if you haven't gotten to the car.

Last question!
Do you use a pay as you go sim in the car then or ?

Sesshoumaru

RandomAccess wrote: »

Last question!
Do you use a pay as you go sim in the car then or ?

It is supplied with the car, I don't even know where it is located Going through the menu in the car you can get information about it. There are no fees for using it.

RandomAccess

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It is supplied with the car, I don't even know where it is located Going through the menu in the car you can get information about it. There are no fees for using it.

Cool. Potentially something to bear in mind for those importing UK cars.

Guy:Incognito

RandomAccess wrote: »

Cool. Potentially something to bear in mind for those importing UK cars.

Presumably it works similar to the free 3g on the Kindle so shouldnt be a problem.

September1

RandomAccess wrote: »

Some questions.
The ability to remote pre-heat the car via your smartphone for example, does this require you to have a sim card in the car or something? Or is there a datalink via the charge cable?

SIM card is build into the car and is not user accessible. So to turn on heating you need smartphone with data plan or any internet connected PC would do.

The reason I ask is because I was wondering does the in-car GPS leverage any realtime updates in relation to the charging network.

No, Nissan has no idea about making usable software. They have some idea about making cars.

Such as,

• Whether newly commissioned chargers are added to the map

• No, they do not list even half of chargers

• Whether chargers that are offline due to a fault are communicated to the cars GPS

• No, but they list non-existent chargers

• Similarly, it would be useful to know if a charger was occupied or not if you were in an area with other chargers available

• No, but it can read RSS feeds to you

ironclaw wrote: »

Tires, service etc would be comparable, so theres no point comparing them.

Oh yes they would be comparable. Actually EV is more expensive to run, as you have to change engine oil much more frequently, high torque would kill your DMF and clutch. Clutches in LEAF are well known weak point. Mine is stuck in first gear since I bought it. Last time I went to Connemara I think I lost also my exhaust as I cannot find it any more. On other hand EV have not DPF or EGR, but who cares because they are extremely cheap. You change one for max 50 E and that would be for some BMW probably, much less for regular cars. Not to mention winter problem, when electrical engines die if used when cold on short distances, unlike modern common rail diesels. Not to mention that if you pick up a dodgy bunch of electrons they will stuck in your filter.


However to be serious I must add that tyres for EVs actually are significantly more expensive, everything else is cheaper (power train) or same cost (breaks, suspension). The reason is simple, modern diesel cars are super advanced, while people were connecting batteries to electrical motors for well over 100 years.

However to change the batteries could cost €10,000+ (€600 or so per cell) And Nissan themselves put a lifetime of around 5 years on them (10 years for 'short trips'). Not to mention the major inconvenience if you wanted to go on a long journey, which charging would then cost you. Lastly, given the micro market for electric cars, your resale prospects would be very slim in my eyes.

They are not dead after this, they just have capacity of 80%. You can still use your car as second car in family or sell it to someone who would be happy with smaller range. In worst case you could charge them at night and power house at day. Unlike components of ICE, electrical components have much more versatile usage.

Indeed resale value is propably the biggest risk connected with EV, what if price of petrol drops ? ESB abandons charging network? Cars would be worth very little.

David09 wrote: »

Electric cars are too expensive to buy and inherently unreliable due to limited range.

I made just 10kkm but never have been stranded without power anywhere. It is a little known fact but there are some villages that have no petrol station but have power sockets.

For Forks Sake wrote: »

No, don't think it's ever been mentioned by anyone on here before...







Sesshomaru to appear in 5,4,3,2,1......

8 mana in third turn? Two explores ?!

RandomAccess

September1 wrote: »

However to be serious I must add that tyres for EVs actually are significantly more expensive

While the RRP for the OEM fit tyres is listed at an alarming €120 on eiretyres they are actually selling them at a more realistic €93.
(Bridgestone Ecopia 205/55R16 91V - Ecopia EP150)

Assuming you don't pay the RRP it is not that much different a price than other popular OEM tyres such as Michelin energy savers.

I suppose if you wish to get the maximum range from the car then an energy saver tyre of some sort would be somewhat mandatory.
(But there is nothing stopping people from sticking a set of ultra cheap tyres on it)

ironclaw

September1 wrote: »

They are not dead after this, they just have capacity of 80%. You can still use your car as second car in family or sell it to someone who would be happy with smaller range. In worst case you could charge them at night and power house at day. Unlike components of ICE, electrical components have much more versatile usage.

So if we took a round figure of 120km for daily range, on a full charge with 100% battery health, in 10 years you'll have 96km at best. Assuming of course that the projection is correct. My roundtrip drive every day is 40km in city traffic. Even with 100% battery health, in cold conditions where I might want heat, the range just isn't there. Sure, you couldn't even get to Galway (204km) from Dublin.

The only electric car I would consider would be the Tesla, at least at 390km or there abouts, its a decent enough range obviously at a (somewhat ridiculous) high price tag.

I'm not being pedantic, but I cannot see the point, economically or technologically, with this technology as it stands.

September1

ironclaw wrote: »

So if we took a round figure of 120km for daily range, on a full charge with 100% battery health, in 10 years you'll have 96km at best. Assuming of course that the projection is correct. My roundtrip drive every day is 40km in city traffic. Even with 100% battery health, in cold conditions where I might want heat, the range just isn't there. Sure, you couldn't even get to Galway (204km) from Dublin.

I must take a note drink less, as I was sure I did Dublin to Galway many times in LEAF with 80% charge - my disconnect from reality is getting stronger. I also did over 100kms on 80% charge... or so I dreamt. It will do easily 160km in city traffic now, actually at 30km/h city crawl you could do probably 200km. Unlike ICE those cars like stop and go traffic and slow speeds.

I'm not being pedantic, but I cannot see the point, economically or technologically, with this technology as it stands.

Yes, but this thread is not about you buying EV. I also do not think EVs are magic bullet, for some uses they are OK, for other not so much. I love Alfas but I know people that prefer Passats and then they are those who need vans. Indeed as it stands EV does not make economical sense before taxes and grants. I would not even consider it if not government grants, no VRT and low taxation of my fuel. Oh and this terrible road tax that forces people to use diesels, which are so so for short distance and cold engine drives.

okidoki987

The dealer price of the Leaf includes the Government grant!

I notice the new price of the leaf at some dealers is 32,000 up from 29,990

What's the story with that?

Zoe can charge in under an hour from any on street charger and is rumoured to be more efficient than the leaf., giving more range. It doesn't have the dc fast charging capability and I can't understand why not ?

So here are currently the differences between Zoe and leaf

Leaf has 30 min from 0 fast dc charging
Zoe can fast charge in 30 mins from 0, but the esb's ac chargers are limited to 20kw and is unknown if they can be made to take more power or need to be upgraded.

Leaf can only charge in 8 hrs or so from 0 from street charger (non fast dc)
Zoe can charge in 8 hrs from 0-100 from home
Leaf charges in 8 hrs from home from 0-100 %
2013 leaf will charge from home in 4 hrs
Zoe's efficient heater gives 3 kw of heat and 2kw of cooling all from 1kw
Leaf motor is more powerful by about 20 hp

Leaf costs 30,000 with battery

Zoe costs 16,000 and battery lease starts from 90 pm for 12,500 Km per year or 22.50 per week

22.50 per week at about 55 mpg diesel = 14.5 miles per litre. 1.55 per litre of diesel x 14.5 litres = 22.47 euros so 14.5 litres x 14.5 miles per litre for 55 mpg =210 miles x 52 weeks per year = 10,920 miles a year for 90 pm of diesel at 155 c per litre or 17,541 Kim's!

Now work out electricity 8 cent per kw/hr for 20 kw/hrs required to charge Zoe for around 100 miles = 190 euros per Year 17,000 Kms per year or over 1000 in diesel.

So Zoe battery rental + electricity works out at about 100 pm or 18,061 Kms per year at 55 mpg and diesel costing 1.55 per litre

So the difference is about 5500 Kms a year in favour of the diesel,at 55 mpg

So total cost of battery lease over 3 years = 3600 still by far cheaper than the leaf

You won't have to worry about the battery, which I doubt is a cause for concern anyway. The nimh in toyotas rav 4 ev lasted well above 150,000 miles and Nissan and renaults nmc chemistry has 4 times the cycle life but Callander life does remain fairly unknown.

The same will,apply for the higher mileage lease packages making the Zoe a little more expensive than a car that can do,55 mpg

The other thing to note is there is almost no maintenance, the motor and the drive shafts and the single gear reduction are the only moving parts.

Service on an ev is changing brake fluid every 2 years and maybe coolant, they will make you bring it in every year and charge you for inspection and tell you it's for your warranty!

So with the introduction of the Renault Zoe will narrow the gap between ev and ice substantially!!!

RandomAccess

I like the Zoe, I think it has a lot of potential.

But I have a few things that I am uncertain about
What do you actually get for your lease payments?

Here is a quote,

Thierry Koskas, Renault’s electric vehicle programme boss, said: ‘The purchase price of EVs with batteries would be too high. By leasing them at around £70 a month we can get the retail price of EVs down to the same level as equivalent petrol or diesel cars with government incentives.

‘It also means that when new battery technology comes along, owners will be able to upgrade their battery.’

So benefit one is that the upfront cost of purchase is lower.
Potential negative is, if battery leasing falls out of favour or competition forces the price down will you be stuck paying the same potentially high price? do you end up with an unsaleable asset, if nobody else wants to take on your lease. Potentially somewhat similar to pre 2008 taxed diesel cars or negative equity in homes.

Second benefit he mentions is that as new battery technology comes along the owner will be able to upgrade their battery.
Potential negative, who decides when you get to upgrade? You are not the owner so do you have a say? Maybe only once the pack is degraded to 75% range they will upgrade you? who knows..

Insurance and battery leasing.
What happens if you drive your car through a flood or crash the car by your own fault and just wreck the battery pack. Who insures the pack? Your car insurance or the lease?

I guess in some ways we may be moving toward a mobile phone style bill pay arrangement, especially since you pay monthly bills which are not necessarily reflective of your usage.
Too many questions right now for me to buy into something like this. I doubt I am the only one.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

I notice the new price of the leaf at some dealers is 32,000 up from 29,990

What's the story with that?

I think price of LEAF went up, I think in UK as well.

Zoe can charge in under an hour from any on street charger and is rumoured to be more efficient than the leaf., giving more range. It doesn't have the dc fast charging capability and I can't understand why not ?

Because European standard for fast charging is 43kW AC so Renault decided to follow it and maybe save money on CHAdeMO installation.

So here are currently the differences between Zoe and leaf

Leaf has 30 min from 0 fast dc charging
Zoe can fast charge in 30 mins from 0, but the esb's ac chargers are limited to 20kw and is unknown if they can be made to take more power or need to be upgraded.

I think ESB plans to upgrade CHAdeMO charges to be able to do 43kW AC charging as well - as power is already there, this should be actually pretty easy.

Leaf can only charge in 8 hrs or so from 0 from street charger (non fast dc)
Zoe can charge in 8 hrs from 0-100 from home
Leaf charges in 8 hrs from home from 0-100 %
2013 leaf will charge from home in 4 hrs
Zoe's efficient heater gives 3 kw of heat and 2kw of cooling all from 1kw
Leaf motor is more powerful by about 20 hp

New LEAF would have more efficient heater, it already has efficient A/C

piston

Sorry Boss, I can't make it to work today as the ESB are doing line maintenance and I can't charge my car:cool:

Sesshoumaru

piston wrote: »

Sorry Boss, I can't make it to work today as the ESB are doing line maintenance and I can't charge my car:cool:

I can't remember the last time I had a power cut. Do petrol pumps work without electricity? But there are alternatives to charging a Leaf with a plug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sujv90PLLY

naturalblue

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Here's a blog by an Irish guy who has owned one for a few months. It's pretty interesting and seems honest http://selfficiency.wordpress.com/

I thought it was funny he doesn't count the cost of all the coffees he buys on the M6 when stopping for a quick blast of electricity.

Actually I only had to use the fast charge for a little while as I can use the charger near work now. Also I always got a coffee even when I had the diesel.