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Juvenile Members in GC - How welcome are they?

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  • 23-03-2012 4:53pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭


    Hi All,

    Just wanted to test the water here to determine members views on how Juveniles should be managed in a golf club?

    Items such as approved playing times, eligibility to play/win Men's Competitions, eligibility to play on Club Teams etc....

    What's your view?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭Whyner


    What's your view OP?

    If they're good enough, they're old enough


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    golfbgud wrote: »
    Hi All,

    Just wanted to test the water here to determine members views on how Juveniles should be managed in a golf club?

    Items such as approved playing times, eligibility to play/win Men's Competitions, eligibility to play on Club Teams etc....

    What's your view?

    Ask Greebo aka the Grump, he'll prob tell u that they should only be allowed out from 4-5am on a monday morning and only if there's no seniors competition on that day even if the comp starts at 1pm. Oh and it has to be raining as well for Juveniles to play because if its sunny the timesheet should be left free just in case the more senior members wish to play.

    Seriously though, I believe they should have allocated times for juvenille competitions and apart from that they can play provided the timesheet is free. I believe single figure juvenilles should be allowed play in mens comps expect for the capt, pres and matchplay and obviuosly should be allowed represent club teams. If they are better than a full/older member then whats the problem?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭Whyner


    Redzah wrote: »
    Ask Greebo aka the Grump

    Or Redzah, The Grudge

    Can't believe you're still going on about this :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    Take it easy Redzah


  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭golferAC


    Their the future of the club is that a good enough answer for you........


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  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    Take it easy Redzah

    i'm taking it easy charly, i was referring to my views on juveniles and contrasting them with another members views from a similiar thread, alls good with me here bro.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭Pacly


    Im a student member and had the best score on captain's day last year, but only got the second prize... I knew i couldn't get first prize before i played and i was happy just to have played as well as I did, but still can't understand why students shouldn't be able to win it??


  • Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭cackhanded


    Pacly wrote: »
    Im a student member and had the best score on captain's day last year, but only got the second prize... I knew i couldn't get first prize before i played and i was happy just to have played as well as I did, but still can't understand why students shouldn't be able to win it??[/QUOTE]

    Do you pay the same sub as full members? Did you pay any hello money to join?
    If "no" to both then there's your answer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭Pacly


    Obviously students in general dont make near as much income as older people?? Why should that dictate what we should be able to win?


  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭acejeff


    last year our junior cup preliminary weekend was won by borris - one guy in his 30s and the other 4 playing were 15-17, enough said


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    golferAC wrote: »
    Their the future of the club is that a good enough answer for you........
    Very true.
    The club in which I'm a member brought in a new rule this year whereby all members under 16 must be accompanied by an adult at all times .
    Something to do with new recommendations on child protection .:rolleyes:
    It is a ludicrous ruling and will seriously hinder juveniles ability to play golf.
    I hope this practice isnt becoming commonplace,as its a farce.


  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭golfbgud


    Zardoz wrote: »
    Very true.
    The club in which I'm a member brought in a new rule this year whereby all members under 16 must be accompanied by an adult at all times .
    Something to do with new recommendations on child protection .:rolleyes:
    It is a ludicrous ruling and will seriously hinder juveniles ability to play golf.
    I hope this practice isnt becoming commonplace,as its a farce.

    That's interesting - wonder if its accurate?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭Zardoz


    golfbgud wrote: »
    That's interesting - wonder if its accurate?
    Its political correctness gone mad.
    At the AGM,it was explained that the new ruling was to protect children on the course from "sinister forces".
    As we all know you'd never know what pervert could be hiding in the bushes waiting to pounce .:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    Pacly wrote: »
    Obviously students in general dont make near as much income as older people?? Why should that dictate what we should be able to win?

    Look at it this way - membership categories are like products or service bundles in the normal commercial world.

    Membership categories are differentiated based on price and on benefits attached.

    Obviously, clubs want to maximise their income from those paying the highest amounts in fees, i.e. full 7 day members, so these folk have the highest level of benefits - simple economics.

    All other memberships have reduced benefits, typically around playing rights (e.g. 4, 5 or 7 day), eligibility to enter or win certain competitions (at weekends or club "majors"), possibly timesheet booking restrictions,voting rights at AGMs / EGMs, etc.

    As regards the Captain's Prize, some clubs don't allow anyone other than full 7 day members participate. Others grant restricted participation in majors to students, juniors above an agreed handicap level, etc., and that's to be welcomed. These limited concessions enable clubs to retain their product differentiation and at the same time offer encouragement to "non-full", younger members.

    It's a tough job these days, trying to balance the books so that clubs survive and product differentiation is just one weapon in a club's armoury to do just that.

    You don't get a dollar song for a nickle or a BMW for Micra prices. So, my advice is cut your club some slack and remember your committee has to look at the business side of things as well as the golf stuff that we all take for granted.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Look at it this way - membership categories are like products or service bundles in the normal commercial world.

    Membership categories are differentiated based on price and on benefits attached.

    Obviously, clubs want to maximise their income from those paying the highest amounts in fees, i.e. full 7 day members, so these folk have the highest level of benefits - simple economics.

    All other memberships have reduced benefits, typically around playing rights (e.g. 4, 5 or 7 day), eligibility to enter or win certain competitions (at weekends or club "majors"), possibly timesheet booking restrictions,voting rights at AGMs / EGMs, etc.

    As regards the Captain's Prize, some clubs don't allow anyone other than full 7 day members participate. Others grant restricted participation in majors to students, juniors above an agreed handicap level, etc., and that's to be welcomed. These limited concessions enable clubs to retain their product differentiation and at the same time offer encouragement to "non-full", younger members.

    It's a tough job these days, trying to balance the books so that clubs survive and product differentiation is just one weapon in a club's armoury to do just that.

    You don't get a dollar song for a nickle or a BMW for Micra prices. So, my advice is cut your club some slack and remember your committee has to look at the business side of things as well as the golf stuff that we all take for granted.:)

    I agree with some of the above and didn't have much beef when i was a student about not being able to play in the captains prize and the likes. However, apart from this, i believe there is some unnecessary restrictions on juvenille playing times in clubs and at times when the course would usually be free then it just doesn't make sense. Simple economics would also suggest that the prospect of revenue from a student member has the potential to last another 50 years in the club whereas from a more mature member could be another 5-10 years should be factored in. If clubs adopt excessive restriction on juvenilles and students then they'll eventually leave and will provide some other club revenue for the next 50 years.

    My gripe is not with not being allowed to play in captains prize etc. as this is an understandable way of not fuelling the grumps fire but other excessive restrictions is where a problem exists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    Redzah wrote: »
    I agree with some of the above and didn't have much beef when i was a student about not being able to play in the captains prize and the likes. However, apart from this, i believe there is some unnecessary restrictions on juvenille playing times in clubs and at times when the course would usually be free then it just doesn't make sense. Simple economics would also suggest that the prospect of revenue from a student member has the potential to last another 50 years in the club whereas from a more mature member could be another 5-10 years should be factored in. If clubs adopt excessive restriction on juvenilles and students then they'll eventually leave and will provide some other club revenue for the next 50 years.

    My gripe is not with not being allowed to play in captains prize etc. as this is an understandable way of not fuelling the grumps fire but other excessive restrictions is where a problem exists.

    Agreed, some clubs have been holding onto outmoded practices as regards juniors.

    Those that do move with the times and build a more balanced membership age profile are better positioned to survive over the long haul.

    Ultimately, it's about supply and demand and looking at the life-time value of a member rather that just a one year membership transaction.

    The trick is to bring as many members as possible along with changes being implemented by committee - requires a lot of time and effort in terms of product development, strategic long term planning, communications, etc.

    A lot of clubs are run and managed by volunteers, who may or may not have the skills necessary to do this type of thing.

    GUI have made recommendations and suggestions in their 2009 publication "Promoting Golf Club Membership" - see attached.


  • Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Redzah will you listen to yourself, constantly getting digs in about grumps ...... you're starting to sound like one. :D

    As for Juveniles, they are vital if a club is to have a future and I would always encourage young players to spend more time at the golf club. I would point out that the real issue is not about rules and juveniles, it should be about thanking the committee members who give up their free time to organise and work with the Juvenile sections of the clubs. Without these people, the Juvenile sections would simply not exist and theres no doubt that its a thankless job these days as some parents see it as free babysitting.

    Finally, for me the most important thing to teach juveniles is respect ..... respect for the game, the rules, the club, the members and respect for themselves. It is the key to a long and happy golfing life, I am now a senior BUT I still give and demand respect from all golfers..... it costs nothing to be polite and say hello as opposed to grunting and shoving past someone as if they are a lesser human.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Jul3s


    Children should be seen and not heard, likewise juniors are welcome as long as they behave themselves and show the respect that is due to those who provide the facilities in which they play.


  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭golfbgud


    Does anyone know what the "climate" is like in Navan GC?


  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭golfbgud


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Agreed, some clubs have been holding onto outmoded practices as regards juniors.

    Those that do move with the times and build a more balanced membership age profile are better positioned to survive over the long haul.

    Ultimately, it's about supply and demand and looking at the life-time value of a member rather that just a one year membership transaction.

    The trick is to bring as many members as possible along with changes being implemented by committee - requires a lot of time and effort in terms of product development, strategic long term planning, communications, etc.

    A lot of clubs are run and managed by volunteers, who may or may not have the skills necessary to do this type of thing.

    GUI have made recommendations and suggestions in their 2009 publication "Promoting Golf Club Membership" - see attached.

    Some interesting stuff in the attachment including:

    "The key to this process is attracting and retaining juniors who see golf as a sport and who are interested in participating in teams and playing representative golf. In this regard juniors should be actively encouraged to
    participate in club competitions once they achieve the necessary handicap qualification. Ability, not age, should be the criteria."


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  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Jul3s wrote: »
    Children should be seen and not heard, likewise juniors are welcome as long as they behave themselves and show the respect that is due to those who provide the facilities in which they play.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Greebo is that you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Redzah wrote: »
    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Greebo is that you?

    ahh the ignore button, freeing the internet of trolls since 1992.
    <click>


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    golfbgud wrote: »
    Some interesting stuff in the attachment including:

    "The key to this process is attracting and retaining juniors who see golf as a sport and who are interested in participating in teams and playing representative golf. In this regard juniors should be actively encouraged to
    participate in club competitions once they achieve the necessary handicap qualification. Ability, not age, should be the criteria."

    I dont think you can take just ability on its own though.
    IMHO you need a certain level of experience and maturity to be allowed to wander around the golf course without any supervision.
    We have lots of Juvenile coaching sessions at my club and how they dont kill each other I have no idea. Walking in front of each other on the range, swinging clubs wildly in the middle of a crowd...firing clubs after a bad shot, its mental out there sometimes. That said, its usually the guys and not the girls who are at this.
    Maybe the problem is young male drivers again :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I dont think you can take just ability on its own though.
    IMHO you need a certain level of experience and maturity to be allowed to wander around the golf course without any supervision.
    We have lots of Juvenile coaching sessions at my club and how they dont kill each other I have no idea. Walking in front of each other on the range, swinging clubs wildly in the middle of a crowd...firing clubs after a bad shot, its mental out there sometimes. That said, its usually the guys and not the girls who are at this.
    Maybe the problem is young male drivers again :)

    Ya, i understand what you're saying Greebo but I think there's a number of reasons in favour of ability being important;

    1. Helps the juvenille further progress his game through competeing with adults.

    2. A Juvenille who plays at a high level is more likely to know the rules and etiquette that needs to be demonstated (i'm just an exception to the rule ;)) and thus would not piss off the older members when playing with them

    3. A juvenille who plays at a high level is likely not to cause slow play by hitting it all over the shop and thus piss off older members.

    4. A juvenille who plays at a high level is likely to be pushing for a place on the club teams and thus playing regularly with other team members in an adult environment will help with familiarity when it comes to matchday.

    In relation to the juvenille training sessions at your club, this would prob be common in most clubs but they're young, its a learning curve so they should be cut a bit of slack, we're irish not german and that's a good thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Redzah wrote: »
    , we're irish not german and that's a good thing.

    you've just put down a whole race of people and for what .... to score some petty point about Juvenile golfers?

    No need.


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    you've just put down a whole race of people and for what .... to score some petty point about Juvenile golfers?

    No need.

    Ah come on, it was a light hearted comment. It was about a what is widely excepted as a more regimented german culture (and not race), thats all.

    This comment is absolutely out of order to interpret my comments in this fashion, as it was a light hearted comment on a forum of irish golfers. You say their was no need for my comment but then you post the above and bring a whole question of race and putting a race down which has the potential to ruin a thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭link_2007


    golferAC wrote: »
    Their the future of the club is that a good enough answer for you........

    Is this really the case? I could be completely wrong but I would have thought that the important target age for a club looking to secure consistent future revenues would be people in their mid to late twenties?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,088 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    link_2007 wrote: »
    Is this really the case? I could be completely wrong but I would have thought that the important target age for a club looking to secure consistent future revenues would be people in their mid to late twenties?

    Totally.
    Possibly the future golfing results of the club are tied to the juvenile members, but the continued existence of the club is purely down to the people paying the most money. If you piss them off and they leave then you can have 37 Junior Tiger Wood's in your club and win all the GUI comps right up until the day the door closes and NAMA moves in.

    Sure its a balance, but imo its more important the keep the people who pay happy than the younger members, give it a few years and the younger members are now full members and the problem has gone away. I think pretty few juveniles will leave a course that their family and friends are at purely because they dont have the same playing rights as someone paying X times the amount they are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Dtoffee


    Redzah wrote: »
    Ah come on, it was a light hearted comment. It was about a what is widely excepted as a more regimented german culture (and not race), thats all.

    This comment is absolutely out of order to interpret my comments in this fashion, as it was a light hearted comment on a forum of irish golfers. You say their was no need for my comment but then you post the above and bring a whole question of race and putting a race down which has the potential to ruin a thread.


    "we're irish not german and that's a good thing"

    So its my fault you sound like Basil Fawlty :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Dtoffee wrote: »
    "we're irish not german and that's a good thing"

    So its my fault you sound like Basil Fawlty :rolleyes:

    Dtoffee with the click of a button you've attempted to turn a light hearted comment into a racist or offensive slur. German culture is more regimented and disciplined than Irish culture and this is a fact and I prefer irish culture, others prefer german culture, no big deal. This is in no way racist. You are misconstrueing my words to discredit me and attempting to paint me as a racist.

    There was absolutely no need for your comment on this matter when u said i've put down a whole race and it was purely posted to cause trouble and paint me as a racist. Furthermore, my comments were addressing juvenille golfers and your comment was completely off topic and provided no benefit whatsoever to the debate and was only to cause trouble.

    If you wish to discuss this any further then PM me as all you have done by your comment is taken this thread off topic and accused a fellow boards member (me) of racism. Completely out of order!!! :mad: :mad::mad::mad:


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