Surprised by Enda Kenny?

jank

View wrote: »

Just because Enda K doesn't agree with your political opinions doesn't make him a facist.

Agreed, otherwise prove to us what his facist tendancys are?
Is he trying to ban other political parties for example? Or passing legislation that will discriminate on the basis of sex/religion/race etc.?

jank

On Enda, I agree he is doing better than allot of people are giving him credit for and I knew he would surprise people. The media don't hold people from rural Ireland with much light. If your a minister or a leader who is not from Dublin, you are going to get more stick. thats a given.

At least he has a strategic plan in place to get Ireland out of the mire they were in. All you have to do is go back 12-18 months and look at the state of the country then under FF and Cowen and co. The country was in a perpetual crisis and there was no knowing how bad it was going to get. There was times where you actually feared for the future viability of the state.

At least now we have a bit of stability. Bond yields have halved. Negotiations under way on the promissory notes that will hopefully ease the debt burden. Greek debt is now isolated to a certain extent so a more open and liberal deal on Ireland is still possible. There is talk of entering the bond market sometime next year which would be great news.

On the home front, Croke Park is still there but that is Labours baby and I believe that when/if the "reforms" promised by the unions fail to materialise then Enda and FG will take out the axe and start chopping. They are playing the long game here.

I would like more though on the political reforms front and I understand the constitutional convention is due to be held later in the year. I also understand that the eyes of the government are probably on other things like the EU treaty, promissory notes etc so they cant do everything you want in one year. Hopefully though they will get their asses in gear on this sooner rather than latter.


On a side note, it is natural to think that your own leaders and politicans are the worst in the world and they bring a certain shame onto the country. OK, Cowen was pretty bad alright in appearance and ability.

Here in Australia lots of people hate Julia Gillard but what they hated more was Kevin Rudd who was foreign affairs minister. He was seen as aloof, weak and needy. Compared to the strong and steely Chinese, Israelis, Russians. Everyone thinks their own leaders are the worst when in reality other countries don't really care.

Enda carries himself well enough, talks well enough, and plays a good game in drumming up positivity about Ireland. You would swear that some people would want him to talk Ireland down judging by some of the Joe Duffy brigade.

"The country is on its knees, Joe!!!!!, nd there Enda's talking Ireland up to American Businessmen, its a disgrace Joe!!!!!"

Carlos_Ray

darkman2 wrote: »

Sorry to burst the bubble but the average Irish person is partly to blame for this mess. That's a fact. No gun was put to the head of "average" Irish people that went mad on credit which was a darn large percentage of "average" Irish people. People choose to live beyond their means. Now they get the swing of it and must take responsibility for their failings in financial discipline.

The recession wasn't caused by the "average" person though. It was caused by failures and corruption at a much higher level in global financial institutions (including Ireland). The knock on effect in Ireland, uncovered a lot of flaws within Irish society, one of which was people living in houses etc, they couldn't afford. However, as was already mentioned this situation was orchestrated by the banks, who not only advised people to take out loans and buy property etc, but actually scared them into doing so. In the last three years of the boom the message coming out from the majority of government associated economists was " if you don't get on the property ladder now, you'll never be able to afford to get on it." The insane real estate rush in Ireland was great for politicians, banks, and builders, as brown envelopes were thrown around like confetti.Despite this, Enda Kenny (like his predecessors) has refused to take on the big boys who are truly responsible for the disaster, preferring instead to let average Joe take the brunt of blame and cost.

Of course Irish people should honour their debts, however, to blame them for what happened with the economy at best betrays a total lack of understanding of economic affairs, and at worst is a cowardly calculated act designed to divert attention.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

As a reminder, the topic of this thread is Enda Kenny's performance as taoiseach, not the cause(s) of the economic crisis. I know there is a fine line here when discussing how Kenny has led the country in a time of economic crisis, but let's not get bogged down in the 'whose fault is it anyway' debate.

later12

I have two problems with Enda Kenny

(i) I share the growing concern that Enda Kenny doesn't fully engage with economic arguments pertaining to the European debt crisis. That's acceptable when if one thinks that he sees himself more as an executive chairman than a managing director. The awkward truth for Kenny is that when he is sitting at a table in European and Eurogroup summits, his role is as a director. His role is strategy,not oversight. So a lack of understanding of the economic and financial detail is problematic when we are sitting at home expecting him to be making arguments on strategy.

(ii)He appears to have established no policy unit as exists in many other jurisdictions whereby an 'executive chairman' type of leader can oversee the adherence of his Government to established policy direction, and which can evaluate Government performance in meeting targets and deadlines.

All we seem to have gotten so far are vague, qualitative assessments of Ministers' performances based one interview conducted by Kenny himself.

At a time of such crucial structural reforms, Enda Kenny needs a policy unit to alert him to Ministerial progress on an ongoing basis, alerting him to any problems that require immediate attention, and to evaluate performance in line with changes in the national economic outlook. To date, there seems to be no objective basis for this sort of continuous assessment. I find that strange, and slightly worrying.

_Gawd_

View wrote: »

Just because Enda K doesn't agree with your political opinions doesn't make him a facist.

Fascism is state power coupled with corporate power. Almost all western governments across the globe now participate in this little backstratch. The modern word is called corporatism. FG = support bailed out banks = fascists. Or has fascism now become mainstream, does this mean we must tolerate it??

jank wrote: »

Serious? I am flabbergasted at this statement.

You absolve responsibility of the people, yet claim everyone walked into a bank out of their own free will to get a loan, yet are not to blame for a property bubble. Serious identity issues there.

"I didnt kill the man Garda, the gun did"

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't blame the people - I blame the ECB printing money and the banks not operating under business principles. Let the people borrow as much as they want so long as the banks fall - it's their loss for being too stupid to compete in the modern world.

_Gawd_

jank wrote: »

Agreed, otherwise prove to us what his facist tendancys are?
Is he trying to ban other political parties for example? Or passing legislation that will discriminate on the basis of sex/religion/race etc.?

Your first mistake was thinking fascism only came in the form of Hitler. It has many faces.

Godge

darkman2 wrote: »

I have been fairly impressed with Enda Kenny since he became Taoiseach. I did not think he would be good at all before he got the job and like many thought FG should have got rid of him before the last election.

How wrong I was to think that now. He has proven to be able to represent us very well abroad and I am really surprised at that. He has a fantastic energy and drive about him. I was just looking at some tweet from a couple of traders on the wall street trading floor who seemed pretty impressed and he seems to be handling interviews very well. And he LOOKS the part. And that is something we have not been use to for a VERY long time. It's refreshing to see our leader even dressed properly.

What i'm wondering here is is my reassessment of Enda Kenny fair OR has it to do with getting over the shock of Cowen of Taoiseach rather then Enda's abilities (let's face it the smurfs would have given us more credibility then Cowen)?

And is my reassessment shared? I think he is doing quite well and deserves a bit of credit.

Have to agree with your assessment of Kenny.

Some people on this thread need anger management courses.

_Gawd_

Godge wrote: »

Have to agree with your assessment of Kenny.

Some people on this thread need anger management courses.

And some people need educational courses.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Let's stop the sniping and get back on topic (which is not fascism!).

There will not be any more warnings on this thread.

Godge

_Gawd_ wrote: »

And some people need educational courses.

I couldn't agree with you more:D.

If people were educated enough to understand that the crisis was brought about by a combination of ten years of stupid FF policies on spending and taxation, a poorly regulated banking system, an international downturn, a monumentally stupid decision of the FF government in September 2008 to guarantee the banks and most of all, the stupidity of the Irish electorate both in continually re-electing that FF government and also indulging themselves in an illogical frenzy to become propety owners whatever the price.

That education combined with a course to direct their anger away from the people sorting out the mess (the current government) and to working out the issues rather than casting blame.

The OP is right, Kenny has done well, we are further down the road to recovery than I thought possible when they were elected.

_Gawd_

Godge wrote: »

I couldn't agree with you more:D.

If people were educated enough to understand that the crisis was brought about by a combination of ten years of stupid FF policies on spending and taxation, a poorly regulated banking system, an international downturn, a monumentally stupid decision of the FF government in September 2008 to guarantee the banks and most of all, the stupidity of the Irish electorate both in continually re-electing that FF government and also indulging themselves in an illogical frenzy to become propety owners whatever the price.

That education combined with a course to direct their anger away from the people sorting out the mess (the current government) and to working out the issues rather than casting blame.

The OP is right, Kenny has done well, we are further down the road to recovery than I thought possible when they were elected.

Fianna Fail were stupid, but no more stupid than other governments across the world. The international downturn is not some unexplained phenomena. Austrians have been predicting this for years. It was Ludwig von Mises that predicted the great depression in the 20's. It's not a mystery and it's infuriating the way we see these people on TV looking like nobody knew what happened...it's ludicrous, it just doesn't mathematically add up. You cannot inflate the money supply...period! When will they EVER LEARN????

Regulation does nothing..we don't need more regulation, we need companies to go bust, simple. When there is talk of regulation, who are the first one's to be called? The top dogs in that particular industry getting the bailouts. It was the banks regulating and it will be the banks regulating their own industry again. Is there anything more ridiculous. Forget about regulations...if someone acts the maggot, they go out of business no ifs buts or maybes about it. Then they'll learn...quick.

We're nowhere near recovery because you seem to be forgetting one very important fact. This is not the first recession. There were many before and there will be many to come. Unless the economic system is changed, we'll continue these booms and busts.

JoeGil

Have to agree that Kenny has performed well since coming into government.

He has been very successful in molding the two coalition parties into a cohesive and effective government.

The economy has stabilised and while there is a long hard road ahead people can at least now see light at the end of the tunnel.

Internationally he has strengthened relationships with Europe and US and this will benefit the country in the long run.

kippy

Good points:
Relationships with UK, US, China, India appear to have been strengthened and improved upon.
He is definetly a far better public figure than Cowan and is up there with the best when it comes to delivering a speech.
He appears genuine and has a grasp on many facets of Irish life - he projects an honest image.
Some reputational damage has been reversed to a point.
The apparent change in attitude to the sex scandals that have engulfed the church is welcome.
A lot of what was promised is being delivered, or at least the process has begun.


Bad points.
There have been some complete turnarounds in what was promised versus what has been delivered - some of this can be put down to constraints they are under but they were aware of this at some point.
Still a large amount of political reform required. Still very little accountability, one only has to look at special advisors, the inkgate incident etc.

We are still at the mercy of EU/IMF and will be for a long time to come.
Yet again there is a lot of "turning the corner talk". We wont get close to turning any corners until the final of the "negative" budgets are out of the way. That is, on current policy a least 4 years down the road, and that is very very much dependent on figures which, in my opinion are way off.


There are lots more I could add but they are the main ones.

Bullseye1

This government has done nothing to improve our internal market. So I'll hold off on giving praise until I see some improvement on that front.

K-9

Steadied the ship, no more no less, can't think of any major achievement. Got a few percentage points of the EU money, retained and intensified efforts on getting new employers here, kept to the FF budget targets and well, can't really think of much else.

Never kept the minister report card promise, 100 day review promises, useless PR speak but would have been entertaining if nothing else.

The big challenges are ahead, the first political one is how he handles the Household charge debacle and climbs down with as little egg on his face as possible.

jank

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Fascism is state power coupled with corporate power. Almost all western governments across the globe now participate in this little backstratch. The modern word is called corporatism. FG = support bailed out banks = fascists. Or has fascism now become mainstream, does this mean we must tolerate it??

That is a hilarious statement.

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't blame the people - I blame the ECB printing money and the banks not operating under business principles. Let the people borrow as much as they want so long as the banks fall - it's their loss for being too stupid to compete in the modern world.

The 2nd part I agree with, the banks should have been let fail, yet to you the people are still free of all blame. By your own simple logic. People want money = banks give them money = banks are corporations = people who borrow money are fascists = em.... New world order? I dont know, insert whatever you want as you sure do know how to make stuff up.

jank

K-9 wrote: »

The big challenges are ahead, the first political one is how he handles the Household charge debacle and climbs down with as little egg on his face as possible.

There can and will be no climb down on this. It simply HAS to happen, otherwise the government will have to give up on introducing new taxes to cut the deficit. The execution of it has not been great but people from the ULA have a lot to answer for IMO. They are fooling people, just as FF fooled them for years. Money grows on trees apparently.

Only in Ireland do people want no tax increases at all, yet want to maintain the level of services while also still running a 16 billion euro deficit.

Anyway, its written into the bailout package so it has to happen.

darkman2

lol - looks like Enda just copied one of O'bama's speeches again at the reception tonight:D

Yes, our challenges are tough. But we meet them head on. And because we know that every nation becomes what it ‘envisions’, we are envisioning success, this time a more authentic success…
Mr President, like you we believe Ireland’ s best days are still ahead. Like you, we believe that our greatest triumphs are still to come. When you came to Ireland, like your predecessor John F Kennedy, you made us dream again.
On these days of St Patrick we hope that you will fulfil his promise, to come home again in the Springtime.

K-9

jank wrote: »

There can and will be no climb down on this. It simply HAS to happen, otherwise the government will have to give up on introducing new taxes to cut the deficit. The execution of it has not been great but people from the ULA have a lot to answer for IMO. They are fooling people, just as FF fooled them for years. Money grows on trees apparently.

Only in Ireland do people want no tax increases at all, yet want to maintain the level of services while also still running a 16 billion euro deficit.

Anyway, its written into the bailout package so it has to happen.

It's gone past the stage of having to happen, speaking as somebody who has advocated it and sees no problem with it. If he carries on with this into the Summer he will look weak and a very poor politician, this €100 charge was badly advised from the start. He, his advisers and Ministers had plenty of time to organise it properly, they didn't.

There is room in the bail out package, especially on €160 Million, I'd worry about the long term effects of an annual charge that could have had an income of a Billion a year being so mishandled, our bail outers could well just give up on it, and find it from somewhere else.

jank

K-9 wrote: »

It's gone past the stage of having to happen, speaking as somebody who has advocated it and sees no problem with it. If he carries on with this into the Summer he will look weak and a very poor politician, this €100 charge was badly advised from the start. He, his advisers and Ministers had plenty of time to organise it properly, they didn't.

There is room in the bail out package, especially on €160 Million, I'd worry about the long term effects of an annual charge that could have had an income of a Billion a year being so mishandled, our bail outers could well just give up on it, and find it from somewhere else.

TBH, I would blame the civil service on that one. Remember they are the permanent government.

I would also give them a break on the timing. Having a year to implement such a controversial and unpopular tax in a recession to my mind is rushed and brave. The troika said that there had to be a charge in 2012. Would you have preferred they went all in and asked for up to 1,000 euro per household?
It is hard to play out a better and different scenario. They went in soft, yet opposition is still massive.

It is no win for them. It should have been introduced back in the good times, but hey thats FF's legacy for you.

washman3

Enda Kenny's infamous words at Davos said it all for me. insulted the very people that voted him into power. even if he, or some deluded people think his words were correct(i dont) he should never have uttered them. A clown forever in my book.:mad:

K-9

jank wrote: »

TBH, I would blame the civil service on that one. Remember they are the permanent government.

Why though? FF knew this tax was coming, so did FG/Labour despite the protestations, Hogan was well able to outline what the tax would be next year and the rough system.

Nope, the Civil Service had the draft ideas drawn up, the politicians wanted to ease it in gradually and they fecked up.

I would also give them a break on the timing. Having a year to implement such a controversial and unpopular tax in a recession to my mind is rushed and brave.

It was there from 6 months previously.

The troika said that there had to be a charge in 2012. Would you have preferred they went all in and asked for up to 1,000 euro per household?

Nope, the system they plan for next year outlined now.

It is hard to play out a better and different scenario. They went in soft, yet opposition is still massive.

Asking everybody to pay the same is not soft. In this political climate, it's complete madness when fairness is key.

It is no win for them. It should have been introduced back in the good times, but hey thats FF's legacy for you.

Agreed. That's Government, making up for past Governments mistakes, it repeats itself as the next one will find out, if Enda doesn't handle this booboo right.

yourpics

Am I surprised by Enda Kenny? No, not really, he is as useless as I suspected. I am suprised though at some of his backbenchers and members of the LAB party. My quality of life was bad before Kenny & Co came to power, now it is much much worse due to the various austerity measures and lack of economic growth. Kenny & Co are career politicians, full of arrogance, elected through lies and deceit.

darkman2

yourpics wrote: »

My quality of life was bad before Kenny & Co came to power

It was ALWAYS going to get worse no matter who got power. The country was insolvent and bankrupt.

yourpics

darkman2 wrote: »

It was ALWAYS going to get worse no matter who got power. The country was insolvent and bankrupt.

No I don't agree, Kenny claimed he was going to create jobs. If I had a job it would make a big difference!
Kenny & Co decided to make the wealthy wealthier at the expense of the less well off. They lied and broke many promises.
Kenny should have taken Vincent Browne's advice.

_Gawd_

jank wrote: »

That is a hilarious statement.

The 2nd part I agree with, the banks should have been let fail, yet to you the people are still free of all blame. By your own simple logic. People want money = banks give them money = banks are corporations = people who borrow money are fascists = em.... New world order? I dont know, insert whatever you want as you sure do know how to make stuff up.

What is the definition of fascism? This is not my statement, this is plain and simple out in the open and mainstream. When you're in bed with corporations, create monopolies, bail out banks you're a fascist. I don't see where any confusion arises....

jank wrote: »

Please do share because you haven't yet proved or even commented what makes Enda Kenny a fascist. I am free to call Declan Kidney a fascist however that doesn't mean he is one, in fact if I don't substantiate my claims I look like a rather big tit.

*obviously the Irish rugby coach is not one, in case there are senstivie souls out there*

Well what is Kenny in you're opinion...a capitalist? If you think Kenny is market orientated, you're living on another planet. Lets call a spade a spade...when you support bank bailouts..taking public money to fill private debt, you're a fascist.

jank

yourpics wrote: »

No I don't agree, Kenny claimed he was going to create jobs. If I had a job it would make a big difference!
Kenny & Co decided to make the wealthy wealthier at the expense of the less well off. They lied and broke many promises.
Kenny should have taken Vincent Browne's advice.

Here we go again, more socialist tripe.
Topped off with a remark that he should go kill himself.
I see the socialist intelligentsia hasnt progressed much over the last 30 years anyway.

jank

K-9 wrote: »

Why though? FF knew this tax was coming, so did FG/Labour despite the protestations, Hogan was well able to outline what the tax would be next year and the rough system

Nope, the Civil Service had the draft ideas drawn up, the politicians wanted to ease it in gradually and they fecked up.
.

Percisely how did the mess it up and how would you have done it better?

K-9 wrote: »

Asking everybody to pay the same is not soft. In this political climate, it's complete madness when fairness is key..

That is subjective. People who own a home must pay the household charge. If you dont own a home you dont pay it, if you do, you must. Fair enough to me. Of course when the rates will increase a progressive system will be implimented. Which "may" be more fair. As I said fairness is subjective.

BluntGuy

yourpics wrote: »

No I don't agree, Kenny claimed he was going to create jobs. If I had a job it would make a big difference!
Kenny & Co decided to make the wealthy wealthier at the expense of the less well off. They lied and broke many promises.
Kenny should have taken Vincent Browne's advice.

They said they would facilitate the creation of 100,000 jobs over four years. Is it really fair to judge him on this basis barely over a year into his term? If so, how could he have been expected to create these jobs, and what kind of jobs would they have been?