Irish Recessions - Then & Now

happyman81

n97 mini wrote: »

happyman81 wrote: »

Yeah, don't teach less religion, just increase the length of the year.

Complaining about the time devoted to something while not complaining about all the time devoted to nothing is very Irish.

Who said I wasn't concerned about the latter? Funny how you managed to come to that conclusion from nothing.

later12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And yet you've suggested that there was an issue of commands being passed down from the Church which were obediently followed by parliamentarians, and are implying that the whole thing is really that straightforward ("In many cases, it was exactly that straightforward."). T

You're consistently committing the same error in presuming that the public and its leadership were victims of the Church instead of recognizing a possibility that that public were quite emphatically at times the real drivers of both the leadership and the RC Church.
How can that not affect your suggestion that "many times, [Church control] was exactly that straightforward". That makes no sense.

I think there was actually quite a complex transaction in power and influence going on between the three parties in question.

It's entirely unclear what you're trying to argue here, other than a version of your usual "it's all more complex and nuanced than anyone other than I can appreciate."

Indeed. Heaven forbid an opinion which is not ridiculously black or white.

n97 mini

happyman81 wrote: »

Who said I wasn't concerned about the latter? Funny how you managed to come to that conclusion from nothing.

If you are concerned, I haven't seen you mention it.

happyman81

n97 mini wrote: »

happyman81 wrote: »

Who said I wasn't concerned about the latter? Funny how you managed to come to that conclusion from nothing.

If you are concerned, I haven't seen you mention it.

Nor have I mentioned an infinity of other possible concerns. Where are you going with this exactly? Just seems like this is a waste of time, to me.

Sand

Recessions tend to hit the younger generations much harder. In the current recession, the only evidence pensioners would have of a recession being on is that their state pension isnt being increased anymore. And much of the dumb policy decisions by the Irish government have been made with the aim of protecting the older generation at the expense of the younger. Hence its not much surprise that those who remember the 1980s think it was far harsher and tougher than todays recession. Back then they were young, straight out of education and desperately searching for a job - any job.

Now they are older, experienced, probably well established in a career theyve been working in for 20+ years, mortgage paid off or close to it. Of course this recession is much softer for them than the 1980s was. In this recession they are on the top of the pyramid, whereas back in the 1980s they were on the bottom. Back then, they were the people whose interests were sacrificed.

Back in the 1980s anyone who remembered the 1950s would have similarly told young people that they never had it so good, etc, etc.

However, for the young people today who are straight out of education and desperately searching for a job - any job - things are vastly worse. At least back in the 1980s young people could emigrate to find work with a great degree of confidence.

Socially of course, Ireland is far advanced over the 1980s but that would be true regardless of us being in a recession or not.

swampgas

Sand wrote: »

Recessions tend to hit the younger generations much harder. In the current recession, the only evidence pensioners would have of a recession being on is that their state pension isnt being increased anymore. And much of the dumb policy decisions by the Irish government have been made with the aim of protecting the older generation at the expense of the younger. Hence its not much surprise that those who remember the 1980s think it was far harsher and tougher than todays recession. Back then they were young, straight out of education and desperately searching for a job - any job.

Now they are older, experienced, probably well established in a career theyve been working in for 20+ years, mortgage paid off or close to it. Of course this recession is much softer for them than the 1980s was. In this recession they are on the top of the pyramid, whereas back in the 1980s they were on the bottom. Back then, they were the people whose interests were sacrificed.

Back in the 1980s anyone who remembered the 1950s would have similarly told young people that they never had it so good, etc, etc.

However, for the young people today who are straight out of education and desperately searching for a job - any job - things are vastly worse. At least back in the 1980s young people could emigrate to find work with a great degree of confidence.

Socially of course, Ireland is far advanced over the 1980s but that would be true regardless of us being in a recession or not.

Good points. In additition, many young graduates in the 80's were getting into IT and related fields like mobile telecoms, new areas where there wasn't too much competition from older workers. Ericsson, for example, went on a massive re-training exercise to introduce the concepts of digital electronics to thousands of older engineers who previously had only worked with analog. Young graduates with degrees in computer science and electronic engineering were able to leapfrog a generation.

Today's graduates in IT (for example) have to compete with people who have been working in that field for 10-20 years.

K-9

Sand wrote: »

Socially of course, Ireland is far advanced over the 1980s but that would be true regardless of us being in a recession or not.

It hasn't advanced that much socially since the 80's, abortion laws haven't really changed, divorce in the mid 90's which is due reforming and updating now, homosexuality was legalised 20 years ago. Civil partnership was probably the first big social legislation since divorce so I wouldn't pat too much on the back for that.

Sand

I didnt give us a pat on the back for being far advanced over the 1980s socially, I noted we were far advanced over the 1980s socially - sure, maybe thats like saying were a little more liberal than the Taliban, but at the end of the day its still true...we are a little more liberal than the Taliban.

Farmer Pudsey

I remember the eighties and while it was bad at least nearly everyone shared the pain. There was no high level of debt and it did not effect rural Ireland except by emigration. Also most families had only one Bread winner and there was a good bit of tempory work, I remember working in hotels for weddings, Dinner dances as they were called also you were safe going out. I remember walking home which was 6 miles at 2 in the morning and if someone passed you they would give you a lift and when I got a car a couple of years later I returned the favour to someone else.

There was no demand for consumer goods usually one TV in house, washing machine and a radio. In rural Ireland most people had there own source of Fuel and when I say rural I mean up to mid sized towns. There was a couple of years in the eighties that were tough I think 86&87 however the rest of it was Ok. I think now is much harder the level of debt carried from the Celtic Tiger is cruifying people. We are nearly four years into it now and I cannot see it starting to lift for another two or three years. There is no way austerity is going to work we can see already that when extra tax is added to people they stop spending somewhere else.

While emingration was a issue people who went abroad got good well paid jobs and were able to get home every 2-3 years and while this seems a lot even if someone worked in Dublin the most they came home was once every4-6 weeks and even if you worked only 40 miles away from home you stayed there very few people commuted above 30 miles to work unless they were married and even then they usually had some place they could stay a night or two a week. In the house we stayed in there was a lad that stayed once or twice a week during the winter he had a bunk bed that was in one of the rooms.

It was a completly different livestyle to now if youu went out you did not need to get plastered every night it was ok to drive with a couple of pints as long as you were not bloto or speeding and around christmas you drove in turns so there was no hugh cost in taxi's. We did not have to be in resturants twice a week and you took your sambo's to work and cooked dinner in the evening when you came home.

To be honest there was less demand on the money you earned you did not need a new set of clothes ever month and boy was there a smell off the one set of football gear but the shower after was grand and off you went

K-9

Sand wrote: »

I didnt give us a pat on the back for being far advanced over the 1980s socially, I noted we were far advanced over the 1980s socially - sure, maybe thats like saying were a little more liberal than the Taliban, but at the end of the day its still true...we are a little more liberal than the Taliban.

We were playing catch up and in some cases haven't even caught up with the 80's.

The point being:

Socially of course,Ireland is far advanced over the 1980s but that would be true regardless of us being in a recession or not.

Even 70's Ireland was more liberal than 50's Ireland. Natural progression isn't worthy of any praise at all, its natural order. Put it this way, if a Garret figure was about now, his agenda would put FF and FG to shame.