Irish Recessions - Then & Now

happyman81

I have been wondering lately whether the current recession or the 80s recession was worse, in terms of the experience of the average person. We keep hearing about this being the worst recession since the 1930s, but that is based on statistics. I am interested in what the experience was like then.

Although I was alive in the 80s, I was just a pup and have no concept of how bad things were then. So, to those who were part of the working population then and now, which recession was worse to experience, in your opinion?

Note that anything in this thread will be entirely subjective, thus no amount of stats or charts will make a difference here. Cheers.

RichardAnd

Well the the recession '80s was a different beast to what is happening today. To me, there are a few key differences.


1. The 1980s was not a recession that followed a period of boom. The 1970s were hardly what could be considered good times so the '80s was less of a bust and more a case of things being worse than they had been.

2. In the '80s, the recession was largely confined to Ireland. An emigrant could easily move to the USA or to England and find work without too much trouble. England was a favoured destination as it's pretty close to home.

3. Debt. This is the big issue of this recession because in the '80s, the levels of personal debt ubiquitous today simply did not exist. People might have been strapped in many cases in the '80s but that's preferable to being thousands of euros in debt.


There are of course, other factors to consider but in my opinion, the 1980's recession simply isn't all that comparable to the crisis we are currently experiencing.

happyman81

I'm still interested in people's experience of both, rather than an analytical overview, such as you provided. I know they are not the same recession. There are literally thousands of articles that I can read that say exactly what you did, I'm not really interested in that for this thread. Just experiences of both, just purely out of interest, without regard to it's merit as an analytical tool. That ok?

I guess this restricts the thread to over 40s, in a way!

jester77

I lived through the 80's recession. It was tough going, but people just go on with it. The only person I knew that had a phone was the parish priest, house's didn't have central heating, everyone grew their own vegetables and potatoes, clothes were all hand-me down, few people had cars, everyone had family that emigrated and you would only see them every few years & summers were spent in the bog trying to rear turf. There was one year in the 80s that was pure torture, I'll never forget that Summer, it never stopped raining, up to the knees in bog carrying wet sods out to the road so they could be taken home to dry in a shed. You appreciated what you had, I know families who couldn't put food on the table back then.

I haven't lived in Ireland in over 10 years but I don't know anyone living there who cannot put food on the table. I read about people being out of their depth with debt problems, but from where I am they seem to be the few.

RichardAnd

You know, one thing that I know was popular in the '80s was home brewing. I can still remember, vaguely, that Easons on Talbot Street sold brewing products in the early '90s. My parents made pear wine at some point, I recall that it was bright green, smelled like urine, had the consistency of olive oil and was as strong as whiskey. Nothing like a good old 1980's session on the home brew

n97 mini

RichardAnd wrote: »

1. The 1980s was not a recession that followed a period of boom.

It sort of was, as it was the hangover (as in pain) of government borrowing and increased spending in the late 70s. Some here might remember the civil service unions looking for a large pay increases in 1979. In that year alone public service pay bill increased by 34%, and between 1977 and 1981, the combination of tax cuts with huge spending increases resulted in a trebling of the National Debt. It was the first time an Irish Govt had borrowed for day to day spending. Prior to that borrowing had been for capital projects only.

It's not unlike today. The party is over, there's no money left and there has to be cuts now to get us back to balancing the books, and the borrowed money will have to be paid back.

However, that's not what the OP asked.

I remember the 80s recession well, and in the west of Ireland, as now, there was massive emigration. The state-owned Aer Lingus and British Airways had a duopoly on air travel between Ireland the UK, and a return flight typically cost £200. As a result the boat was the favoured mode of travel, connecting either by coach (cheaper) or train. Because of this people didn't travel home very often.

The luckier ones who could get the money together went to the US. The cost of the plane ticket was huge (again largely thanks to Aer Lingus), and generally you only had people coming home once a year or two, assuming they got a well paid job on the other side. People didn't go to Australia and very few intentionally went to Canada. The vast majority went to England.

As the dole was comparatively little back then (I think it was higher in the UK), people who were on the dole were genuinely poor. Very few had cars, and of course there was no such thing as mobile phones, expensive games consoles or satellite TV back then anyway.

The country had a genuine doom and gloom feel to it, and so it should have, as it was a complete kip. As a nation we had very little, if anything, to be proud of. The Brits gave us back the keys of the gaff and we wrecked it.

swampgas

I was in school & college in the 80's - I finished college in 1987. I had one job offer, which was overseas, and as a result I ended up living overseas until 2003.

Unemployment was pretty high. Part-time work was hard to find. Full time work was very hard to find.

A lot of the kids I was at school with did not go on to college (couldn't afford it) and were resigned to unemployment or emigration. Emigration was the only option for most - England or the US mostly. I remember that most of my family and friends were living outside Ireland for quite a few years.

This was before the era of cheap flights, travelling to/from Ireland was expensive, so visits home were limited. The rates Telecom Eireann charged for international calls at the time were pretty outrageous, so phone calls from home were rare. The internet didn't exist so no email/Facebook/Skype to help maintain contact.

The standard of living in Ireland is much, much higher now, IMO, than it was in the 80's.

OS119

swampgas wrote: »

...The standard of living in Ireland is much, much higher now, IMO, than it was in the 80's.

i'll go with that - i visited Ireland as a kid in the early eighties from the UK with family to see family (now long dead). my parents, who i don't think had visited since the 60's, were really, really astonished to see the levels of deprivation/poverty that were in evidence.

i couldn't believe that people didn't have phones, or cars, or more than one pair of shoes - or that people tried to burn soil for heating and the roads were merely collections of potholes going in various directions. and fcuking potatoes for every bloody meal...

if i, in my little Home Counties, 9 year old bubble thought that i can only imagine what my parents thought.

there was was no 'longing for the auld sod' in chez OS119 i can tell you...

RichardAnd

n97 mini wrote: »

It sort of was, as it was the hangover (as in pain) of government borrowing and increased spending in the late 70s. Some here might remember the civil service unions looking for a large pay increases in 1979. In that year alone public service pay bill increased by 34%, and between 1977 and 1981, the combination of tax cuts with huge spending increases resulted in a trebling of the National Debt. It was the first time an Irish Govt had borrowed for day to day spending. Prior to that borrowing had been for capital projects only.

It's not unlike today. The party is over, there's no money left and there has to be cuts now to get us back to balancing the books, and the borrowed money will have to be paid back.

However, that's not what the OP asked.

I remember the 80s recession well, and in the west of Ireland, as now, there was massive emigration. The state-owned Aer Lingus and British Airways had a duopoly on air travel between Ireland the UK, and a return flight typically cost £200. As a result the boat was the favoured mode of travel, connecting either by coach (cheaper) or train. Because of this people didn't travel home very often.

The luckier ones who could get the money together went to the US. The cost of the plane ticket was huge (again largely thanks to Aer Lingus), and generally you only had people coming home once a year or two, assuming they got a well paid job on the other side. People didn't go to Australia and very few intentionally went to Canada. The vast majority went to England.

As the dole was comparatively little back then (I think it was higher in the UK), people who were on the dole were genuinely poor. Very few had cars, and of course there was no such thing as mobile phones, expensive games consoles or satellite TV back then anyway.

The country had a genuine doom and gloom feel to it, and so it should have, as it was a complete kip. As a nation we had very little, if anything, to be proud of. The Brits gave us back the keys of the gaff and we wrecked it.

I agree but I think I made my point badly. I know that there was a correction of a deficit during the '80s but what I was saying was that for the average person, the years before the '80s recession were not exactly "good times" in the sense that the boom years were prior to this recession.

n97 mini

RichardAnd wrote: »

I agree but I think I made my point badly. I know that there was a correction of a deficit during the '80s but what I was saying was that for the average person, the years before the '80s recession were not exactly "good times" in the sense that the boom years were prior to this recession.

I don't recall the late 70s really, but there was an episode of Reeling in the Years on a while back where they were saying that in 1979 the more something cost the more people wanted it, and that consumer spending was off the charts.

swampgas

Not only was the country in poor shape economically, socially we were pretty backwards as well. Limited access to contraception and no divorce for example.

In my experience the Ireland of today, recession or not, is a much more pleasant place to live than the Ireland of the 80s.

Manach

My own impression was the 80s were better, as there was still a sense of overreaching traditional community and we were not awash in relativist moral consumerism that presaged this recession.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

OldNotWIse

From experience, the 80's one was worse (though I was still a kid then too) My best friend's Dad was out of the country for years working, as he could not find work here. She saw him maybe twice a year for 4 or 5 years. Looking back, we did not have much (macaroon bars on a Sunday evening were the highlight - take out violin lol) but I suppose we never had it to miss it. The difference between then and now is that in the more recent recession, people had further to fall.

donkey balls

I was still going to school during the 80s but from what I can remember if your father had a job to go to they were lucky as most of my class mates fathers could not find work here,As Permabear pointed out the Life of Brian being banned was crazy and people from other countries who I have met while travelling around the world think I'm winding them up about the film getting banned.
Also the 80s recession kinda overspilled into the early 90s regarding finding work for young school leavers like myself,Fast forward to the present situation there is still work out there in certain industries although it's lowly paid and agency temping with no o/t after 40hrs or shift allowance/sunday premium etc.
Also during the 80s we as kids would go out and play from the morning and not be seeing till lunch time before heading back out the door again till evening time,These days kids stay in and play on their computer consoles we had deadly times playing soldiers in the local forest:Drunning about,Also back in the 80s the likes of teachers/Gardai/clergy were always right and you would never question their authorithy if you thought they were wrong.

swampgas

OldNotWIse wrote: »

<snip>
The difference between then and now is that in the more recent recession, people had further to fall.

I suppose many people today are comparing their current situation with better times a few years ago, and subjectively feel hard done by.

However I do remember the 80's as being unrelentingly grim - I don't have any figures, but it seemed that the suicide rate among young men was very high. There simply wasn't any hope for a lot of people.

Bad and all as things seem now, they are a lot better than the 80's, and there is a real sense that things will improve over time.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RichardAnd

I would tend to believe that things are better these days. Have a look at the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGIhzWXAoQ

It's a series of photographs taken of Dublin in the '80s. To be fair, alot of them seem quaint but the city looks run down, parochial and to be honest, a bit of a kip. Dublin today, or at least, parts of Dublin, look modern and clean.

donkey balls

Ah the memories I still walk up by the canal on the way back from a game in Croker.

stringed theory

Wages, social welfare etc. tended to be similar to the UK, and Ireland was never a "poor" country, in the real sense, but more like a poor region of a rich country. Many middle class people were better off, with spectacularly cheap property prices. And if you had a car driving was much more enjoyable than today. Imagine three hours Dublin to Cork on the old road (if you were hard hearted enough to ignore the lines of hitch hikers outside towns!)

Unemployment was high. However, poverty was exacerbated by social conditions. There were often very large families with five, six, or even a dozen children, and only the father working, if he was lucky.

RichardAnd's pictures of Dublin were interesting - even St Stephen's Green was half derelict - but there was definite progress during the decade. The last Victorian slums were vacated. The financial services centre was started. We got the DART, the first motorway, the first city centre shopping mall. The Liffey stopped stinking. We got clean air.

meglome

My father was a bricklayer back in the day and I always took an interest in buildings growing up. Dublin was a kip in the 1980's, there were derelict sites all over the place and many of the old buildings were falling down. I can't think of anything that wasn't run down to some degree. The tenements on Gardiner street were only being pulled down.

Anyone who compares the situation now to the 1980's hasn't a clue, it was way worse in the 1980's.

K-9

RichardAnd wrote: »

I would tend to believe that things are better these days. Have a look at the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGIhzWXAoQ

It's a series of photographs taken of Dublin in the '80s. To be fair, alot of them seem quaint but the city looks run down, parochial and to be honest, a bit of a kip. Dublin today, or at least, parts of Dublin, look modern and clean.

That was my memory of inner city Dublin in the 80's from visits, my first Summer working there was 1990 so the World Cup brightened it up a bit! But yeah until urban renewal in the mid 90's for Gardiner Street and Christchurch there was a sense of it just being drab and neglected, the new apartments meant more than tax breaks, it was a sign that there was life in the inner city and the IFSC with its 3/4 office blocks reinforced that.

stringed theory wrote: »

Wages, social welfare etc. tended to be similar to the UK, and Ireland was never a "poor" country, in the real sense, but more like a poor region of a rich country. Many middle class people were better off, with spectacularly cheap property prices. And if you had a car driving was much more enjoyable than today. Imagine three hours Dublin to Cork on the old road (if you were hard hearted enough to ignore the lines of hitch hikers outside towns!)

Unemployment was high. However, poverty was exacerbated by social conditions. There were often very large families with five, six, or even a dozen children, and only the father working, if he was lucky.

RichardAnd's pictures of Dublin were interesting - even St Stephen's Green was half derelict - but there was definite progress during the decade. The last Victorian slums were vacated. The financial services centre was started. We got the DART, the first motorway, the first city centre shopping mall. The Liffey stopped stinking. We got clean air.

Wages weren't that far out, tax rates were, 35,48 and 58% in 1987 and the tax bands and allowances less, I'm nearly sure we'd a 65% rate at one stage, with PRSI on top so disposable income was far less. The black economy was rife.

Excise duties were high, no filling stations whatsoever in towns like Ballyshannon and other border towns, boarded up filling stations a common sign.

Less tax overall in the North, there was some change in that over 20 years, all the Northerners had the best cars and best roads, all that changed, well, barring country roads.

Pretty basic items now would have been essentials then, not thinking iPods or laptops, things like oil heating and being able to run it, though turf was a cheap fuel for the range.

Hayte

RichardAnd wrote: »

I would tend to believe that things are better these days. Have a look at the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGIhzWXAoQ

It's a series of photographs taken of Dublin in the '80s. To be fair, alot of them seem quaint but the city looks run down, parochial and to be honest, a bit of a kip. Dublin today, or at least, parts of Dublin, look modern and clean.

I recognised the first shot instantly as the fruit & veg warehouse at Mary's Lane at St Michan's Street. I walk by it on the way to the Four Courts and it looks alot worse now than it did back then.

Edit: thanks for posting that video. I wasn't around in the 80s but it seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same. There are still beggars on the Ha'penny bridge every day. Henrietta place is still rundown (though slowly being restored). You can still see the scorch marks on the Four Courts buildings at the same time as you can observe the ugly modern extension they tacked on (now occupied by the PRA). Ringsend has gone glass front in alot of places but I remember the derelict cotton mills that were still around as little as 5 or 6 years ago. I remember the graffiti scrawled on one of the steel doors: "the garda are the smelly pigs". There is still shocking poverty, neglect and addiction.

I met an American family on the bus on the way out to Enniskerry and they were talking about inner city Dublin in a way that you never really think about when you live and work in it every day, because its just normality. But if you stop and think for moment, you realise that theres alot of history in this town. Its there on the face of every building on every street corner.

jimmycrackcorm

donkey balls wrote: »

I was still going to school during the 80s but from what I can remember if your father had a job to go to they were lucky as most of my class mates fathers could not find work here,As Permabear pointed out the Life of Brian being banned was crazy and people from other countries who I have met while travelling around the world think I'm winding them up about the film getting banned.
Also the 80s recession kinda overspilled into the early 90s regarding finding work for young school leavers like myself,Fast forward to the present situation there is still work out there in certain industries although it's lowly paid and agency temping with no o/t after 40hrs or shift allowance/sunday premium etc.
Also during the 80s we as kids would go out and play from the morning and not be seeing till lunch time before heading back out the door again till evening time,These days kids stay in and play on their computer consoles we had deadly times playing soldiers in the local forest:Drunning about,Also back in the 80s the likes of teachers/Gardai/clergy were always right and you would never question their authorithy if you thought they were wrong.

+1 on this. When I was at school, the natural thing was to emigrate after education. I was the only one from my college course to get a job at home but I fully expected to have to emigrate. In those days people didn't complain about their sons and daughters having to emigrate because it was a normal thing.

I definitely would not want to swap this recession with the eighties - I think the biggest difference is that, back then everyone was equally poor but now some people have negative equity and larger debt. But now we do get to have pizza.

NakedNNettles

Personally, I don't even think emigration is all that bad anymore either. What with the internet, skype and cheaper air travel. It's so easy to keep in contact with the home country.

There was a time back in the 80's when people were leaving, you really knew that you weren't going to hear from them for a while or even see them for years. That's all changed.

You would have to laugh nowadays at young lads on here having a hernia about 'emigrating' to London. I'm surprised these lads could even find the flaming airport.

RichardAnd

Hayte wrote: »

I recognised the first shot instantly as the fruit & veg warehouse at Mary's Lane at St Michan's Street. I walk by it on the way to the Four Courts and it looks alot worse now than it did back then.

Edit: thanks for posting that video. I wasn't around in the 80s but it seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same. There are still beggars on the Ha'penny bridge every day. Henrietta place is still rundown (though slowly being restored). You can still see the scorch marks on the Four Courts buildings at the same time as you can observe the ugly modern extension they tacked on (now occupied by the PRA). Ringsend has gone glass front in alot of places but I remember the derelict cotton mills that were still around as little as 5 or 6 years ago. I remember the graffiti scrawled on one of the steel doors: "the garda are the smelly pigs". There is still shocking poverty, neglect and addiction.

I met an American family on the bus on the way out to Enniskerry and they were talking about inner city Dublin in a way that you never really think about when you live and work in it every day, because its just normality. But if you stop and think for moment, you realise that theres alot of history in this town. Its there on the face of every building on every street corner.

You're welcome. I know the area behind the courts well because I actually used to work for the PRA. The courts look fine from the front but the area behind them is very run down. The building boom saw Smithfield become a little busier for a while but now, I think it's likely that many of the developments will remain empty and gradually decay.

Certainly though, there is an awful lot of history to be had around Dublin.

later12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sort of off topic but I had a conversation with a friend about this a few weeks ago, and she vehemently disputes the popularly recounted level of control that the RC Church is nowadays said to have enjoyed over social values in the 1980s.

In light of my scepticism, she lately sent me as evidence a swell of Irish Independent, Times, Sunday Independent, Farmers' Journal and Irish Press articles (thereby taking in most social classes and backgrounds) with what were, for the standards of the day, some very liberally minded articles on homosexuality, abortion and contraception; and indeed the role of the Catholic Church.

I'm still mentally digesting these articles, and maybe I'll start a thread about it in the History forum, but such apparent contradictions to this popular hypothesis does make me question the validity of such claims as you make above. Let us not forget that the Irish people have been a very conservative group of people long before the institutionalisation of the 20th century Roman Catholic Church, and that is evident even today with the diminution of influence of that Church.

I wonder whether or not Irish people like to use stories of 20th century Roman Catholic dominance over society in the same way that those of a certain vintage like to look back on mid-late 20th century Ireland with a curious mixture of both nostalgia and disdain. The Things Were Thurrible In My Day, Joe brigade.

Or is the Roman Catholic church, an entirely voluntary organisation as it always has been, merely a way of Irish people to somewhat ashamedly explain their long held social conservatism by passing it off as veritable oppression?

I better make this post relevant, I suppose, and I should do so by suggesting that the same sort of bias exists with respect to the economy. It is very easy for us, when abandoning empirical evidence as the OP has requested, to look upon the past with a distinct bias, one which naturally seeks to avoid all personal implication in unpalatable group behaviour.

happyman81

later12 wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sort of off topic but I had a conversation with a friend about this a few weeks ago, and she vehemently disputes the popularly recounted level of control that the RC Church is nowadays said to have enjoyed over social values in the 1980s.

In light of my scepticism, she lately sent me as evidence a swell of Irish Independent, Times, Sunday Independent, Farmers' Journal and Irish Press articles (thereby taking in most social classes and backgrounds) with what were, for the standards of the day, some very liberally minded articles on homosexuality, abortion and contraception; and indeed the role of the Catholic Church.

I'm still mentally digesting these articles, and maybe I'll start a thread about it in the History forum, but such apparent contradictions to this popular hypothesis does make me question the validity of such claims as you make above. Let us not forget that the Irish people have been a very conservative group of people long before the institutionalisation of the 20th century Roman Catholic Church, and that is evident even today with the diminution of influence of that Church.

I wonder whether or not Irish people like to use stories of 20th century Roman Catholic dominance over society in the same way that those of a certain vintage like to look back on mid-late 20th century Ireland with a curious mixture of both nostalgia and disdain.

Or is the Roman Catholic church, an entirely voluntary organisation as it always has been, merely a way of Irish people to somewhat ashamedly explain their long held social conservatism by passing it off as veritable oppression?

I better make this post relevant, I suppose, and I should do so by suggesting that the same sort of bias exists with respect to the economy. It is very easy for us, when abandoning empirical evidence as the OP has requested, to look upon the past with a distinct bias, one which naturally seeks to avoid all personal implication in unpalatable group behaviour.[/Quote]

I had time only to glance at your post, but is there no possibility of selection bias on the part for your friend when researching these articles? How certain is your friend that this selection was representative? Those are the first two questions I would ask.

Of course, given my request for absence of tables and charts, such bias is absolutely guaranteed. But as I said, I am interested in the experience of enduring both recessions. Perhaps when all views have been posted, people can take want they want from the aggregate. But it is nothing more than a light conversation, not a thesis.

OldNotWIse

swampgas wrote: »

I suppose many people today are comparing their current situation with better times a few years ago, and subjectively feel hard done by.

However I do remember the 80's as being unrelentingly grim - I don't have any figures, but it seemed that the suicide rate among young men was very high. There simply wasn't any hope for a lot of people.

Bad and all as things seem now, they are a lot better than the 80's, and there is a real sense that things will improve over time.

Agree. My parents said their mortgage interest rate was something crazy (I can't remember the exact figure but I know was in the teens). I cant imagine how difficult that could have been for people.

OldNotWIse

later12 wrote: »

Sort of off topic but I had a conversation with a friend about this a few weeks ago, and she vehemently disputes the popularly recounted level of control that the RC Church is nowadays said to have enjoyed over social values in the 1980s.

In light of my scepticism, she lately sent me as evidence a swell of Irish Independent, Times, Sunday Independent, Farmers' Journal and Irish Press articles (thereby taking in most social classes and backgrounds) with what were, for the standards of the day, some very liberally minded articles on homosexuality, abortion and contraception; and indeed the role of the Catholic Church.

I'm still mentally digesting these articles, and maybe I'll start a thread about it in the History forum, but such apparent contradictions to this popular hypothesis does make me question the validity of such claims as you make above. Let us not forget that the Irish people have been a very conservative group of people long before the institutionalisation of the 20th century Roman Catholic Church, and that is evident even today with the diminution of influence of that Church.

I wonder whether or not Irish people like to use stories of 20th century Roman Catholic dominance over society in the same way that those of a certain vintage like to look back on mid-late 20th century Ireland with a curious mixture of both nostalgia and disdain. The Things Were Thurrible In My Day, Joe brigade.

Or is the Roman Catholic church, an entirely voluntary organisation as it always has been, merely a way of Irish people to somewhat ashamedly explain their long held social conservatism by passing it off as veritable oppression?

I better make this post relevant, I suppose, and I should do so by suggesting that the same sort of bias exists with respect to the economy. It is very easy for us, when abandoning empirical evidence as the OP has requested, to look upon the past with a distinct bias, one which naturally seeks to avoid all personal implication in unpalatable group behaviour.

Perhaps there may be some truth there, I would love to see the articels. From a subjective point of view, I would disagree. I have been told (by my parents and grandparents) examples of the control their particular parish had over them as a family and it beggars belief really. PP dropping in without notice, everything had to be dropped, tea made etc. Didn't matter that my gran had 5 young children, some running around in nappies, trying to cook a meal for her working husband. The PP called around and everything was put on hold. There was a respect fear there that we do not (thankfully) have any more.

Manach

The fear is now reserved for the social workers of whatever stripe that now show up at the door.

swampgas

From a Corkonian perspective, the 70's and 80's was a time when "traditional" industries were on the way out. Dunlop and Ford shut their doors, and Irish Steel were discovering that without cheap electricity they were never going to compete internationally. Verolme dockyard was another casualty - Ireland couldn't compete in the global ship-building market. The transition to an economy more heavily based based on Pharma/IT/Finance took quite a few years and left many older men effectively unemployable.

The prospects for recovery in Ireland are much better now than they were in the 80's, but competitiveness is key. IMO the government could do much more to improve education - the next generation will be competing in science, IT and technology with the rest of the world, and the rest of the world isn't hanging about.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Manach

Permabear however does not mention how much that social liberal change was not as a result of grass roots support, instead it was imposed by an elite wish to be closer to European levels and as well imposed by membership of EU and ECHR.
The imposition of the legislation of homosexuality was as a result of the Norris decision in Europe. Divorce was only passed on the second time around, and that was with the support of what it retrospective illegal Government spending on behalf of the Yes campaign.
What might be called parochial values were conservative traditional virtues of an excellent education provided at low cost by Church resources and a social care model a of network of dispensaries that provided a level of care to the poorest members of society.
Today we are burdened by a historically over-large state sector that seeks to expand its control over economic, social, proprietorial sectors which is the now dominant stakeholder in Irish society. Initiatives such as the property tax seek to institutise a tithe that will allow the State to better follow the European norm instead of the alternative US model which does mix conservative social values with a free marker economy.

later12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But I wonder if that did not have more to do with the public consistently electing socially conservative, traditionalist politicians with more direct dominion over their lives than had been the case with absentee MPs at Westminster. Not only were Irish politicians now stationed at Dublin, there were a lot more of them, with a direct mandate to oversee Irish policy and institutions without having to worry much about outsiders.

So I'm not sure that one can directly ascribe responsibility for the rise in conservatism to the voluntarily supported Roman Catholic church.

The alliance between the Fianna Fáil of De Valera (a man deeply and trenchantly opposed to modernity and liberalism in all its forms) and the Catholic Church quickly saw legislative prohibitions on many freedoms that the Irish had previously enjoyed under British rule. Over the ensuing decades, Irish people were banned from using contraceptives. Many books that had been freely available under British rule were banned, as Ireland suffered a regime of censorship that Robert Graves in 1950 described as "the fiercest ... this side of the Iron Curtain." The school curriculum became overwhelmingly dominated by religion and Irish. Female civil servants came to face statutory retirement upon marriage.

Again, nobody doubts that the conservatism outlined existed. Nobody denies who implemented it. Ireland was a very conservative place in 1930 and 1950 and 1970 and so it is today, as well.

However, what I feel you are trying to say, and what I responded to, is this issue of the RC Church 'dictating' social policy. That is very questionable. What I am questioning is whether or not Irish people were not the ones very keenly dictating the popularity of the RC Church and essentially ranking their political choices in order of the most absurd levels of social conservatism.

It seems to me that throughout the 20th century, there was always a spark of resistance to conservatism, this is certainly evident in Irish media. However, that spark seems never to have been taken up and made into something more reformative, and perhaps the desire was never there to do so. I wouldn't be so quick to blame all of this on the diktats of a religious institution who was totally dependent on a public who apparently gladly propped it up, and does so to an extent today too.

When Irish people look back on society in 50 years time, what vehicle will they find to blame socially conservative laws on marriage, divorce and abortion legislation, without implicating us, their ancestors who are actually responsible? I think they will simply come to the ultimate conclusion that Irish people were simply a very conservative bunch. No need to prop it up by blaming it on enforced conservatism by a voluntary organisation.

K-9

Permabear wrote: »

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Probably a lot of truth in your post and DeV gets a lot of blame but he was in power from 1932 on, Cumann na Gael were very socially conservative and started the cosy relationship with the Church from the start, IIRC they organised the Eucharist congress in 1932, DeV just happened to have taken over power a few months before it actually happened.

Laws may have been different under Britain pre 1922 but the influence of the Church was huge before independence, widespread in society, independence just saw them get more influence officially.

CnaG/FF/FG, not much difference between any of them socially (the Mother and Child scheme a great example) until the 70's and Garret, mavericks like McBride or Browne tended to be outside the main parties.

Permabear

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Permabear

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swampgas

Permabear wrote: »

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Interesting - do the books listed address economic factors much?

I often wonder how much regressive/conservative social attitudes might inhibit economic development, as economic factors seem to affect social attitudes. Perhaps the less conservative social values we have today compared with the 80's are a positive factor when it comes to economic recovery. (I was wondering if you know of any research in this area.)

Sleepy

later12, when indoctrination into a religion takes place side-by-side with education in reading and arithmetic etc., at the hands of the clergy of that religion for generations, is it any surprise if the population are consistently electing socially conservative, traditionalist politicians who adhere (at least publicly) to that religions teachings?

An ignorant population is an easy one to control with religion. When the only education available tells you from a young age that you'll burn in a place of everlasting torment if you don't tow their line alongside demonstrable facts (e.g. 2+2 = 4) you're inclined to believe them and tow their line.

Is it any wonder that religious adherence is lower amongst the knowledge generations? When anything can be looked up on-line (or even in the case of those of us who were children in the 80's: absorbed via foreign media with the emergence of NTL /cablelink / satellite television in the 80's) you come across more evidence of the contradictions within the teachings of that religion.

The church controlled the schools, the hospitals and the soup kitchens. Of course people were religious.

Permabear

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K-9

Permabear wrote: »

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I see where you are coming from. Ferriter I think mentioned how Cumann na Gael basically inherited the British civil service which would have had many Catholics employed and these became the new establishment themselves. Being a "good Catholic" would have been an extension of that so by the time DeV came to power the foundations had been set, he sadly just built on them.

Sleepy wrote: »

later12, when indoctrination into a religion takes place side-by-side with education in reading and arithmetic etc., at the hands of the clergy of that religion for generations, is it any surprise if the population are consistently electing socially conservative, traditionalist politicians who adhere (at least publicly) to that religions teachings?

An ignorant population is an easy one to control with religion. When the only education available tells you from a young age that you'll burn in a place of everlasting torment if you don't tow their line alongside demonstrable facts (e.g. 2+2 = 4) you're inclined to believe them and tow their line.

Is it any wonder that religious adherence is lower amongst the knowledge generations? When anything can be looked up on-line (or even in the case of those of us who were children in the 80's: absorbed via foreign media with the emergence of NTL /cablelink / satellite television in the 80's) you come across more evidence of the contradictions within the teachings of that religion.

The church controlled the schools, the hospitals and the soup kitchens. Of course people were religious.

Free Education was a big player in the eventual crumbling of the Churches power. You can see it in the North as well, though it happened at a slower rate due to the Troubles. Third Level Education was for the privileged few, once that was opened up it was only a matter of time.

Permabear

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happyman81

swampgas wrote: »

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Interesting - do the books listed address economic factors much?

I often wonder how much regressive/conservative social attitudes might inhibit economic development, as economic factors seem to affect social attitudes. Perhaps the less conservative social values we have today compared with the 80's are a positive factor when it comes to economic recovery. (I was wondering if you know of any research in this area.)[/Quote]

There is research in this area, but I don't have it off the top of my head. Try Google 'Centre for Economic Development Harvard' and have a browse around there as they have a good collection of articles, papers and datasets in this broad area.

Sleepy

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree. And agree that it should be done away with.

OldNotWIse

Manach wrote: »

The fear is now reserved for the social workers of whatever stripe that now show up at the door.

Yup, nanny state beckons. We'll be taxed on farting next, sorry for being crude On the other hand you have cases where the children should be taken away, and are not. Not too long ago, a woman in the city centre was arrested after she drunkenly pushed her baby in his buggy into a wall.... :mad: And of course (in the UK) the terrible plight of Baby P comes to mind... No they would rather inspect kids lunch boxes for sugary drinks and ban parents from photographing their own children at swimming contests

OldNotWIse

Permabear wrote: »

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Quite disturbing statistics...

OS119

Sleepy wrote: »

...The church controlled the schools, the hospitals and the soup kitchens. Of course people were religious.

chicken and egg?

i don't for a moment doubt that the church used its pivotal societal position to do the kind of 'strong-arming' you suggest, but did not the churches position - and therefore capability - come from the 'will of the people' in that they elected conservative, insular, knee-bending politicians on a ticket of conservative insularity and bening the knee?

a viscious circle certainly, but was it really one not entered into freely?

happyman81

OS119 wrote: »

Sleepy wrote: »

...The church controlled the schools, the hospitals and the soup kitchens. Of course people were religious.

chicken and egg?

i don't for a moment doubt that the church used its pivotal societal position to do the kind of 'strong-arming' you suggest, but did not the churches position - and therefore capability - come from the 'will of the people' in that they elected conservative, insular, knee-bending politicians on a ticket of conservative insularity and bening the knee?

a viscious circle certainly, but was it really one not entered into freely?

Like an offer you can't refuse...

swampgas

Sleepy wrote: »

< ... >

Is it any wonder that religious adherence is lower amongst the knowledge generations? When anything can be looked up on-line (or even in the case of those of us who were children in the 80's: absorbed via foreign media with the emergence of NTL /cablelink / satellite television in the 80's) you come across more evidence of the contradictions within the teachings of that religion.

I read A Great Feast of Light a while back - it has an interesting take on the influence of TV on Ireland, especially as many of the American soaps depicted quite the decadent lifestyle ... you didn't see JR heading off to mass on Sunday.

later12

Sleepy wrote: »

later12, when indoctrination into a religion takes place side-by-side with education in reading and arithmetic etc., at the hands of the clergy of that religion for generations, is it any surprise if the population are consistently electing socially conservative, traditionalist politicians who adhere (at least publicly) to that religions teachings?

i fully recognize the interplay between society and church, and the cause and effect that the informally institutional role the Roman Catholic church has had in Ireland for centuries.

My point was simply that it was not as straightforward as Permabear's assertion about diktats being passed down from the Church which were obediently followed by parliamentarians.

That's a suspiciously neat, simple idea and I think it ignores the possibility that Irish people were aware of moral and logical arguments to the contrary and chose not to engage with them. The fact that some people clearly were engaging with alternatives --and in commercially popular newspapers -- makes me suspicious of the overbearing oppression we are sometimes led to believe was exerted by the Roman Catholic Church.

I think the danger here is absolving the Irish people of all blame for their failure to engage in any dialogue, failing to ask questions and failing to address an imbalance with how their society dealt with the inequality and mistreatment of individuals.

We are in danger of using the RCC as a scapegoat, when I think that there is a possibility its relationship with the public was more symbiotic than that, with the public perhaps using and promoting it as a vehicle for Irish society's own conservative ideals.

I'm not arguing overwhelmingly for one or the other explanation, I just don't think the nature of the relationship is as easily described as may have been suggested. We cannot just overlook personal responsibility by deeming ourselves oppressed.