Repair after timing belt failure....pic heavy.

-Corkie- · 18-03-2012 11:32pm

If your work is anything like the way this thread is wrote you must be outstanding at your work.

Great thread I really enjoyed it..

Nissan doctor · 18-03-2012 11:55pm

trixyben wrote: »

while back one of our vans were drove for some distance while the system was bone dry, the lad driving only noticed as the steam was really coming from under the bonnet when he slowed up, temp was at max on dash, he pulled up and stopped the van and filled with water, engine wouldnt start again...

if the engine was left to run and water put in would that have made any difference in this case? or would enough damaged been already done the block would you say?

If it had a leak or whatever and was kept topped up then chances are it would have been repairable. But even leaks can slowly cause damage as they can prevent the cooling system from pressurising properly. (the higher the pressure the higher the boiling point)

You'd have to wonder what sort of brain donor could drive for long enough to cause that damage without realising that the gauge/lights/lack of power/lack of interior heating/steam/engine noise etc was telling him something!:rolleyes:

SteelyDanJalapeno · 19-03-2012 12:07am

My belt snapped recently, Cracked one of the cams clean in 2

Nissan doctor · 19-03-2012 12:15am

TiltedBrain wrote: »

My belt snapped recently, Cracked one of the cams clean in 2

What car/engine?

SteelyDanJalapeno · 19-03-2012 12:33am

Nissan doctor wrote: »

What car/engine?

It was a 2000 corrolla h/b, Peugeot 1.9 diesel engine in it thou, same block from a partner I'd assume.

I was in traffic at time, some noise bang out of it! I had a local mechanic sort it for me, salvaged parts from a Partner thou to keep costs down, think he charged me 400 - 500 in the end

Nissan doctor · 19-03-2012 12:44am

TiltedBrain wrote: »

It was a 2000 corrolla h/b, Peugeot 1.9 diesel engine in it thou, same block from a partner I'd assume.

I was in traffic at time, some noise bang out of it! I had a local mechanic sort it for me, salvaged parts from a Partner thou to keep costs down, think he charged me 400 - 500 in the end

Sounds very strange, the cost of fitting the Peugeot engine into the Corolla and making it function correctly would be more then the value of either car or engine.

The only way that damage to the cam would be possible would be if the valve was driven up into the head, through the cam followers/lifters and into the cam and this could only happen at high RPM and would damage much more then just the valve and cam.

I'd suspect much more to that then a simple timing belt failure TBH.

SteelyDanJalapeno · 19-03-2012 12:47am

I would of presume the belt is under most strain while coming from stopped to moving like pulling off from a traffic light?!

Just on the engine, Toyota couldnt meet the emmisions regulations at the time, the Peugeot engine is in all the diesel type Corrollas for that period afaik

Owen · 19-03-2012 12:52am

Honestly, I think this is the very best thread I've ever seen in the Motors Forum. Well, apart from BMW535d, but this is outstanding. Best How-To on here by far! :cool:

Nissan doctor · 19-03-2012 12:57am

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I would of presume the belt is under most strain while coming from stopped to moving like pulling off from a traffic light?!

Just on the engine, Toyota couldnt meet the emmisions regulations at the time, the Peugeot engine is in all the diesel type Corrollas for that period afaik

I stand corrected, it seems they did use the peugeot engine for a year until they finished developing their 2.0d4d.

The belt is rotating the whole time once the engine is running. Its actually under most strain when starting the engine as it has no momentum to aid its rotation. Even though the engine is under load when pulling away from lights, the RPM is still low so the upward speed of the piston is still unlikely to hit the valve hard enough to drive it up into the cam. IMO anyway.

trixyben · 19-03-2012 12:59am

Nissan doctor wrote: »

If it had a leak or whatever and was kept topped up then chances are it would have been repairable. But even leaks can slowly cause damage as they can prevent the cooling system from pressurising properly. (the higher the pressure the higher the boiling point)

You'd have to wonder what sort of brain donor could drive for long enough to cause that damage without realising that the gauge/lights/lack of power/lack of interior heating/steam/engine noise etc was telling him something!:rolleyes:

still cant understand today how he didnt see the temp gauge and lights on the dash etc, ah well these things happen and happen more so when someone is driving someone elses motor!!!

Nissan doctor · 19-03-2012 1:15am

trixyben wrote: »

still cant understand today how he didnt see the temp gauge and lights on the dash etc, ah well these things happen and happen more so when someone is driving someone elses motor!!!

Wouldn't happen again if he was made to pay for it!

doctorchopper · 22-03-2012 10:19pm

If you are lapping a lot of valves, one of this is hady
http://www.mowforce.com/VALVE-LAPPING-TOOL-CRANK-STYLE_p_4989.html
I used to rebuild a lot of old ingersol rand kvs compressor engines. Pistons are about 450 lbs a piece. here's some pictures of one (not me though)

SouperComputer · 30-03-2012 1:26am

doctorchopper wrote: »

If you are lapping a lot of valves, one of this is hady
http://www.mowforce.com/VALVE-LAPPING-TOOL-CRANK-STYLE_p_4989.html
I used to rebuild a lot of old ingersol rand kvs compressor engines. Pistons are about 450 lbs a piece. here's some pictures of one (not me though)

Thats's a feckin great tool. Might get one! I rebuilt the top end and turbos in my T6 last year, I'll lob up a thread with some photos. Wont be as detailed as this one mind.

I love rebuilding engines. Hate working on cars, especally **king around with hard to get to bolts/rusted stuff but I could rebuild engines all day. Love looking at a nice clean air pump.

Discodog · 30-03-2012 9:11am

Those lappers are OK for people who know what they are doing but it would be easy for a novice to over grind the valve seat. When I did mine they only needed a total of about 5 minutes of lapping by hand per valve.

doctorchopper · 31-03-2012 11:50am

Discodog wrote: »

Those lappers are OK for people who know what they are doing but it would be easy for a novice to over grind the valve seat. When I did mine they only needed a total of about 5 minutes of lapping by hand per valve.

You are absolutely correct, they are very quick at lapping the valves, so be careful

CJhaughey · 01-04-2012 10:37pm

Try this lapper.
http://www.louis.de/_10905472c2a8622ac4322a3cc41ec5c874/index.php?topic=artnr_gr&article_context=detail&grwgr=370&wgr=465&list_total=32&anzeige=0&artnr_gr=10002886

Nissan doctor · 01-04-2012 10:44pm

Either of the tools mentioned above remove the 'feel' for what your doing.

When lapping by hand you can feel when the paste is working, can feel when it needs to be brought back onto the seat and feel when the surface is getting to the condition you want.

Tools like that make it very easy to over do it IMO.

Personal preference of course.

trixyben · 01-04-2012 11:21pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Either of the tools mentioned above remove the 'feel' for what your doing.

When lapping by hand you can feel when the paste is working, can feel when it needs to be brought back onto the seat and feel when the surface is getting to the condition you want.

Tools like that make it very easy to over do it IMO.

Personal preference of course.

Doc,

On an engine where no damage is done with a snapped timing belt, how are these engines timed and how are the valves operated etc?

Nissan doctor · 01-04-2012 11:33pm

trixyben wrote: »

Doc,

On an engine where no damage is done with a snapped timing belt, how are these engines timed and how are the valves operated etc?

Non interference(free running) engines work in exactly the same way. The only reason that damage isn't caused is due to how far the valves open in relation to the stroke of the piston. On these engines, when the valves are fully open, they still have clearance between then and the piston crown.

Avns1s · 01-04-2012 11:34pm

trixyben wrote: »

Doc,

On an engine where no damage is done with a snapped timing belt, how are these engines timed and how are the valves operated etc?

Not wishing to speak on behalf of the Doc (whom I guess will soon be a professor! :-) ), I presume you are talking about a "non-interference" engine.

They operate exactly the same as an "interference" engine but the stroke of the piston does not intercept the valve at any point hence if the belt breaks, the piston does not strike the valve regardless of the valve position.

Avns1s · 01-04-2012 11:35pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Non interference(free running) engines work in exactly the same way. The only reason that damage isn't caused is due to how far the valves open. On these engines, when the valves are fully open, they still have clearance between then and the piston crown.

Hmmm, beat me to it. On the ball as usual, Doc!!

trixyben · 01-04-2012 11:55pm

makes ya think why (apart from the fact of having to pay garage for repairs) use the interference engine with the possible damage ahead of you?

Is there pros and cons of both?

Avns1s · 01-04-2012 11:58pm

trixyben wrote: »

makes ya think why (apart from the fact of having to pay garage for repairs) use the interference engine with the possible damage ahead of you?

Is there pros and cons of both?

Well, in fairness, if the timing belts are changed at the recommended intervals, there is rarely a problem with timing belt failure.

trixyben · 02-04-2012 12:05am

Avns1s wrote: »

Well, in fairness, if the timing belts are changed at the recommended intervals, there is rarely a problem with timing belt failure.

it happened me on a seat inca van on the motorway, belt snapped and only 30k done on it, required new engine which of course means hassle and €€€€€

just wondered was there maybe a down side to the non interference engine or why they arent used on by most manufacturers

Nissan doctor · 02-04-2012 12:06am

trixyben wrote: »

makes ya think why (apart from the fact of having to pay garage for repairs) use the interference engine with the possible damage ahead of you?

Is there pros and cons of both?

There are less and less non interference engine these days. The design of the combustion chamber is the main factor which determines interference or non interference and the most efficient combustion chamber designs require an interference set up.

trixyben · 02-04-2012 12:24am

Nissan doctor wrote: »

There are less and less non interference engine these days. The design of the combustion chamber is the main factor which determines interference or non interference and the most efficient combustion chamber designs require an interference set up.

Cheers Doc...

Have you any other well documented repairs in the pipeline?

Nissan doctor · 02-04-2012 12:31am

trixyben wrote: »

Cheers Doc...

Have you any other well documented repairs in the pipeline?

I'll have to see what I can do....the problem with things like a clutch change, for example, is that, apart from changing the clutch unit itself, the job(connections, linkages, shafts, box etc etc) is pretty vehicle specific so doing a pic thread of a clutch change on a Focus would give very little pointers to someone wanting to try it on another car. That's why in this thread I went into very little detail on removing/refitting the engine external components.

Leave it with me though.

There might be a thread soon about building a Nissan 200sx from scratch:eek:

Discodog · 02-04-2012 1:12am

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Either of the tools mentioned above remove the 'feel' for what your doing.

When lapping by hand you can feel when the paste is working, can feel when it needs to be brought back onto the seat and feel when the surface is getting to the condition you want.

Tools like that make it very easy to over do it IMO.

Personal preference of course.

I totally agree. There is a common misconception that grinding by hand is hard work. If you are replacing worn or damaged valves it shouldn't take more that 5 mins total grinding per valve. You are only trying to achieve a couple of mm of ground seat.

The other huge problem with lapping attachments is you can't hear the paste working. When you lap by hand you can hear when the paste is no longer grinding & it is then time to change to a finer paste.

Repair after timing belt failure....pic heavy.

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