Catholic, but don't want to be.

prestigio1977

Hi, I'm new to this so bear with me.
I've kind of known for a while now that I don't fit in with the small village Catholic community that I live in because I don't believe in God and the catholic way. I married very young because I had a baby at 17 and I've always conformed to the way I was expected to behave just to please other people. My family are catholic, was made go to mass every Sunday but we never discussed religion. So I brought my 2 children up in the catholic way, small country school, communion, confirmation, the lot, even though I didn't bring them to mass every Sunday. My children are 15 and 17 now and I regret that I wasn't stronger in listening to my feelings early on. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is, I'm searching for something, I've been looking into Humanism a bit and it interests me. I'm also wondering, is there a process to break away from the Catholic church, or do you just do it?? Anyone in the same boat?

beerbuddy

Done to death .......... try and look at the other threads they have all the info you need

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

if you don't beleve in god then you don't believe in god
there's no forms you need to fill out or any membership fees
your life doesn't change at all except for a bit more free time on a sunday morning

Galvasean

beerbuddy wrote: »

Done to death .......... try and look at the other threads they have all the info you need

Ah don't be mean. She's new.

OP, there used to be a form you could fill in to leave the Church but they don't pay attention to them anymore. Instead you just stop attending their masses, don't identify yourself as a Catholic on census forms etc., stop giving them your money and stop listening to what they have to say. Just ignore them and they won't be part of your live anymore.

prestigio1977

Haha, thanks for your support there Galvasean.
I suppose the biggest problems that lay ahead are my family, for instance, when I told my mother lately that I bought a sympathy card for my neighbours who's father passed away a few months ago, she was shocked that I wouldn't pay money for a mass card to have mass said for him, but I just don't believe in that. She reckons I should have done that because it's what they would have wanted and that I had better buy one for her when she goes..... I love my mother but I think that this is the general attitude of the catholic church. I believe in freedom of choice in what you want to believe, or not as the case may be. As long as you are a good person and responsible in your actions, then what's the problem? I know that sounds very ideallistic but That's MY belief.

number10a

Back in the days when I was still just dobtful and hadn't made the final call saying I don't believe, it was the whole mass card thing that pushed me on that little bit further.

My mother wanted a mass card and sent me into this office on Washington Street in Cork with a counter like a bank or a post office, glass screens and all, and nuns behind it. A nun called "next". Up I went. Asked for a mass card for my grandmother. Nun writes my grandmother's name in a book. Nun says "€4.00 please". I hand her the money. Then she says "Hang on a second. Is this person living or dead?" I tell her my grandmother is living. "Oh right, it's €7.00 for a mass card for a living person." I ask for my fiver back and get one of those pre-signed mass cards in a newsagents for €1.60. How the hell does it cost extra to pray for a living person??? Not that I even believe that they ever pray for the people who mass cards are bought for. Apparently one mass card equals one whole mass. Me hole! And then in school we were taught that the sale of indulgences went out the window at the time of Martin Luther!! How wrong my history teacher (also a nun) was.

Like Galvasean says OP, just give up going. Don't listen to them. Identify yourself as not being religious if you ever need too - it's not like you need to make a loud declaration to the whole village from your rooftop. I made my decision just after the church stopped allowing people to excommunicate themselves, or whatever it's called. Don't really care though. Like they say themselves, a baptism is a historical fact and it cannot be undone. Just look to the future now. Pay them no heed and everything becomes a whole lot rosier. People ask me if I feel the whole thing is a bit bleak if there's nothing after death and I just tell them it makes you appreciate life a hell of a lot more.

Nervous Wreck

prestigio1977 wrote: »

Haha, thanks for your support there Galvasean.
I suppose the biggest problems that lay ahead are my family, for instance, when I told my mother lately that I bought a sympathy card for my neighbours who's father passed away a few months ago, she was shocked that I wouldn't pay money for a mass card to have mass said for him, but I just don't believe in that. She reckons I should have done that because it's what they would have wanted and that I had better buy one for her when she goes..... I love my mother but I think that this is the general attitude of the catholic church. I believe in freedom of choice in what you want to believe, or not as the case may be. As long as you are a good person and responsible in your actions, then what's the problem? I know that sounds very ideallistic but That's MY belief.

I don't mean to sound like a dick but people like your mother piss me off no end....

Your beliefs are your own. The best thing you can do, as Galvasean said, is ignore the stuff you don't want a part of and allow (encourage) your children that same freedom.

Galvasean

prestigio1977 wrote: »

Haha, thanks for your support there Galvasean.

number10a wrote: »

Like Galvasean says

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

The best thing you can do, as Galvasean said,

Galvasean knows best :cool:

lynski

prestigio1977 wrote: »

Haha, thanks for your support there Galvasean.
I suppose the biggest problems that lay ahead are my family, for instance, when I told my mother lately that I bought a sympathy card for my neighbours who's father passed away a few months ago, she was shocked that I wouldn't pay money for a mass card to have mass said for him, but I just don't believe in that. She reckons I should have done that because it's what they would have wanted and that I had better buy one for her when she goes..... I love my mother but I think that this is the general attitude of the catholic church. I believe in freedom of choice in what you want to believe, or not as the case may be. As long as you are a good person and responsible in your actions, then what's the problem? I know that sounds very ideallistic but That's MY belief.

HA I can take that one!
My Dad died last year and we only got around to the mass cards this month. We loved the sympathy cards, the personal messages of condolence and anecdote. The mass cards meant less then nothing to us as all these people just went and paid a few quid, no thought, no meaning.
I would not have sent one anyway, but I will never again send anything unless I have something to say to the family.
At one point we were calculating the amount of money one of the local priests and another church made from the funeral. So cynical, money for the mass (abysmal, you would think they would get a little performance training?), money hand over fist for more masses in the cards, money for months mind(actually no, a family friend did a lovely service in the house), money for the years anniversary (not us, we decided not to bother)
what a racket.

prestigio1977

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I don't mean to sound like a dick but people like your mother piss me off no end....

Your beliefs are your own. The best thing you can do, as Galvasean said, is ignore the stuff you don't want a part of and allow (encourage) your children that same freedom.

Yea, my mother has been known to piss a few people off in her time, but I love her all the same .But it's not just my mother that I'm afraid of being judged by...now I know that sounds weak, but all my life, I've been a people pleaser, which meant that I never really had to think for myself, which I NOW know has been to my detriment, so much so that my marriage is falling apart. I'm struggling with a lot of stuff in my life at the moment apart from religion, and I know I have the strength to get through it, but I also know that it won't happen overnight. I think this is just another step towards being true to myself and that's where I want to be.
number10a, thanks for your kind words, it really does help to know I'm not alone. I know what your saying about the afterlife question, and I like your answer to it.
I love life, I love people, I love nature. I try to appreciate every new day as it comes, be it rain or shine, I will just make the best of it and that's good enough for me .
Just watched the debate on frontline about secularism... very interesting and what a coincidence!

Galvasean

prestigio1977 wrote: »

the best of it and that's good enough for me .
Just watched the debate on frontline about secularism... very interesting and what a coincidence!

There's a thread on that show in this very forum (be warned though, it's chock full of in jokes)

looksee

lynski wrote: »

HA I can take that one!
My Dad died last year and we only got around to the mass cards this month. We loved the sympathy cards, the personal messages of condolence and anecdote. The mass cards meant less then nothing to us as all these people just went and paid a few quid, no thought, no meaning.
I would not have sent one anyway, but I will never again send anything unless I have something to say to the family.
At one point we were calculating the amount of money one of the local priests and another church made from the funeral. So cynical, money for the mass (abysmal, you would think they would get a little performance training?), money hand over fist for more masses in the cards, money for months mind(actually no, a family friend did a lovely service in the house), money for the years anniversary (not us, we decided not to bother)
what a racket.

I don't have anything to do with mass cards and anniversaries, but it was never my flavour even when I had religious inclinations, so it doesn't make a difference. However the suggestion is that the church shouldn't charge for various services, but in fairness, church buildings have to be maintained and heated and cleaned, and people paid. I know the church is wealthy but on a local scale, if you want to use a service, I think you should be prepared to make a contribution towards it.

A diy anniversary is lovely, but even for a completely secular burial or whatever there would be costs involved. I am personally of the 'chuck me on the compost heap' school of thought, except the neighbours would complain, and the cats would probably get sick eventually, so I suppose I will have to be cremated. Except there is no crematorium closer than Dublin so far as I know. I think someone in Wexford has started a non-religious burial ground, maybe that would be the way to go.

Sorry OP, I have gone off-topic, but you see the problems you are heaping on yourself by leaving the Church? Go for it, girl!:D

fisgon

prestigio1977 wrote: »

Hi, I'm new to this so bear with me.
I've kind of known for a while now that I don't fit in with the small village Catholic community that I live in because I don't believe in God and the catholic way. I married very young because I had a baby at 17 and I've always conformed to the way I was expected to behave just to please other people. My family are catholic, was made go to mass every Sunday but we never discussed religion. So I brought my 2 children up in the catholic way, small country school, communion, confirmation, the lot, even though I didn't bring them to mass every Sunday. My children are 15 and 17 now and I regret that I wasn't stronger in listening to my feelings early on. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is, I'm searching for something, I've been looking into Humanism a bit and it interests me. I'm also wondering, is there a process to break away from the Catholic church, or do you just do it?? Anyone in the same boat?

You may feel alone there in a small village, but in the wider community in this country you are in the majority if you don't attend mass. It may not be a consolation but more and more people think the way you do. They may not raise their heads in a small conservative community, but I guarantee you that you are not the only doubter in whatever village you live in. Honestly, in some sections of society it is hard to find a true believer at the current moment.

LordSutch

prestigio1977 wrote: »

Hi, I'm new to this so bear with me.
I've kind of known for a while now that I don't fit in with the small village Catholic community that I live in because I don't believe in God and the catholic way. I married very young because I had a baby at 17 and I've always conformed to the way I was expected to behave just to please other people. My family are catholic, was made go to mass every Sunday but we never discussed religion. So I brought my 2 children up in the catholic way, small country school, communion, confirmation, the lot, even though I didn't bring them to mass every Sunday. My children are 15 and 17 now and I regret that I wasn't stronger in listening to my feelings early on. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is, I'm searching for something, I've been looking into Humanism a bit and it interests me. I'm also wondering, is there a process to break away from the Catholic church, or do you just do it?? Anyone in the same boat?

Ever thought of trying another Christian Church? C.o.I comes to mind, a subtle difference with a strong Christian ethos with a different vibe, new faces too! Just a thought, and good luck to you in whatever you do, as long as you find peace within on your spiritual quest . . .

Galvasean

prestigio1977 wrote: »

I don't believe in God

LordSutch wrote: »

Ever thought of trying another Christian Church?

.....Really?

Solair

Careful now: The type of traditional, rural, Catholics in Ireland who find atheists a bit weird may react even more extremely to "Mammy, I've become a protestant".

freda on the hill

Solair wrote: »

Careful now: The type of traditional, rural, Catholics in Ireland who find atheists a bit weird may react even more extremely to "Mammy, I've become a protestant".

How about "Mammy, I've become a witch"?

Sorry, just following this thread on my lunch break, I've not done this before, it's very interesting. I gave up on the catholic religion years ago, it just wasn't for me. Hope the girl who posted the OP finds the answers she's looking for.

sbsquarepants

prestigio1977 wrote: »

As long as you are a good person and responsible in your actions, then what's the problem? I know that sounds very ideallistic but That's MY belief.

It would be a nice world alright if everyone thought like that, wouldn't it! Have the courage to think for yourself OP, you'll be thankfull in the end. Life is too short to conform, you are what you are, accept yourself and insist everyone else follows suit. It's quite liberating to realise you don't "need" to be anything except a decent human being.


Oh and welcome to the club, we're a friendly bunch us atheists. You'll soon recieve an email detailing when and where the next human sacrifice takes place, perhaps one of those kids you mentioned? Do be a sweetheart and bring a bottle:)

number10a wrote: »

Then she says "Hang on a second. Is this person living or dead?" I tell her my grandmother is living. "Oh right, it's €7.00 for a mass card for a living person." .

I can't be the only one picturing father Ted saying mass on the milk float can I?
Extra cos the old dear hasn't had the decency to kick the bucket yet? Charming in the extreme!!

prestigio1977

Galvasean wrote: »

.....Really?

Yeah Galvasean, that's what I thought too!

prestigio1977

looksee wrote: »

I don't have anything to do with mass cards and anniversaries, but it was never my flavour even when I had religious inclinations, so it doesn't make a difference. However the suggestion is that the church shouldn't charge for various services, but in fairness, church buildings have to be maintained and heated and cleaned, and people paid. I know the church is wealthy but on a local scale, if you want to use a service, I think you should be prepared to make a contribution towards it.

A diy anniversary is lovely, but even for a completely secular burial or whatever there would be costs involved. I am personally of the 'chuck me on the compost heap' school of thought, except the neighbours would complain, and the cats would probably get sick eventually, so I suppose I will have to be cremated. Except there is no crematorium closer than Dublin so far as I know. I think someone in Wexford has started a non-religious burial ground, maybe that would be the way to go.

Sorry OP, I have gone off-topic, but you see the problems you are heaping on yourself by leaving the Church? Go for it, girl!:D

I realise there will be difficulties.
My point about the mass cards was not the money side of it, it's that I don't believe in it and thought it would be a nice gesture to give a sympathy card and it had my own personal message, which I know the family appreciated.

prestigio1977

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It would be a nice world alright if everyone thought like that, wouldn't it! Have the courage to think for yourself OP, you'll be thankfull in the end. Life is too short to conform, you are what you are, accept yourself and insist everyone else follows suit. It's quite liberating to realise you don't "need" to be anything except a decent human being.


Oh and welcome to the club, we're a friendly bunch us atheists. You'll soon recieve an email detailing when and where the next human sacrifice takes place, perhaps one of those kids you mentioned? Do be a sweetheart and bring a bottle:)



I can't be the only one picturing father Ted saying mass on the milk float can I?
Extra cos the old dear hasn't had the decency to kick the bucket yet? Charming in the extreme!!

Thanks sb, looking forward to the human sacrifice thingy... what's your preference.. red or white?

Galvasean

prestigio1977 wrote: »

Thanks sb, looking forward to the human sacrifice thingy... what's your preference.. red or white?

Hey, we're cannibalistic atheists, not racists! :mad:

Beruthiel

prestigio1977 wrote: »

But it's not just my mother that I'm afraid of being judged by

Oh yes. The joys of living in a small place down the country. Where, if you do not follow the herd, they'll be talking about you for miles around.

prestigio, there comes a point in your life when you have to live it for yourself.
Living for others, or, for what others think of you, is a sad, miserable existence.
Once you stop giving a crap what everyone else thinks, you'll be a happy, stress free person.
You don't have to declare your atheism to the world, but if the subject comes up, be honest about it.

robindch

Beruthiel wrote: »

Living for others, or, for what others think of you, is a sad, miserable existence.

Or indeed, what you think others think of you...

Amen(*), sister.

(*) Intended ironically.

joseph brand

LordSutch wrote: »

Ever thought of trying another Christian Church? C.o.I comes to mind, a subtle difference with a strong Christian ethos with a different vibe, new faces too! Just a thought, and good luck to you in whatever you do, as long as you find peace within on your spiritual quest . . .

Sounds hip! Are they into 'free love' and stuff?

Galvasean

Beruthiel wrote: »

Once you stop giving a crap what everyone else thinks, you'll be a happy, stress free person.

prestigio1977

Galvasean wrote: »

Beruthiel wrote: »

Once you stop giving a crap what everyone else thinks, you'll be a happy, stress free person.

Looking forward to the stress free life:-) I appreciate all the comments and words of support. Ye're good people :-). my faith is in the goodness of human nature.

Amtmann

Galvasean wrote: »

OP, there used to be a form you could fill in to leave the Church but they don't pay attention to them anymore.

Galvasean does not know best. You can still defect from the church: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76582180&postcount=53

I did, little over a month ago.

darealtulip

LordSutch wrote: »

Ever thought of trying another Christian Church? C.o.I comes to mind, a subtle difference with a strong Christian ethos with a different vibe, new faces too! Just a thought, and good luck to you in whatever you do, as long as you find peace within on your spiritual quest . . .

As a friend of mine said; I am a Catholic but I don't believe in god.

I found that in Ireland believing in a god is not a requirement for being part of a religion.

Thanks LordSutch for pointing that out once again.

OP I lived in a small village and know exactly how hard it can be at times. People get used to it though and keep just telling them that non-religious people are the second largest group in Ireland.

I also found that more and more people came to me and told me they don't really believe either but they just don't want to rock the boat and keep going through the motions.

prestigio1977

Hi all,

Thought I'd give an update on this. It's taken me a while, but I'm getting there. I have left the Catholic Church behind me, in my mind anyway and I've moved on. My family and close friends know my views, and most of them are ok with it. Had a major row with my parents the week before my sister's wedding in March, but I think it finally cleared the air. My Mother reckon's I'm "lost" but I will find my way and my Father just doesn't understand it, but I'm just glad that they know now, whether they accept it or not. I feel like I don't need to pretend anymore, I can just be myself. I went to a talk on Humanism a few weeks back and found it very interesting and agreed with a lot of their views. I may or may not go again, but I know now that I'm happy with my choice. I'm still the same person I was before, the only difference is that I'm being true to myself

the culture of deference

prestigio1977 wrote: »

I realise there will be difficulties.
My point about the mass cards was not the money side of it, it's that I don't believe in it and thought it would be a nice gesture to give a sympathy card and it had my own personal message, which I know the family appreciated.

Well done Pres.

As for family ... don't worry. The more insane peoples beliefs are the harder it is for them to let them go.

Next time your family gets on to you bring up mass cards and the charge. Ask them why the think god would need money that humans invented, and why does he need more if the person is deceased.

Beruthiel

prestigio1977 wrote: »

I went to a talk on Humanism a few weeks back and found it very interesting and agreed with a lot of their views.

Are you looking for answers elsewhere prestigio?
Do you feel there is a hole left that religion used to fill?
Don't know why, but I get that vibe from your posts.

Have you read any books? We have a thread on some good reads here.

Dades

Good stuff.

If you don't mind me asking, how are your kids about this? Are they nominally catholic or did they start asking themselves questions at some point too?

I'd imagine once a parent looks behind the curtain, it doesn't take much for them to realise it's okay to think for themselves.

Beruthiel

Dades wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how are your kids about this? Are they nominally catholic or did they start asking themselves questions at some point too?

I'd bet good money they already don't buy most of it.

Sarky

Enjoy your Sunday lie-in, guilt-free sex, meat on Fridays and the knowledge that the only person controlling your life is you.

Dades

Sarky wrote: »

Enjoy your Sunday lie-in, guilt-free sex, meat on Fridays...

You mean like most 'catholics'?

Sarky

Precisely.

FiachDubh

lynski wrote: »

HA I can take that one!
My Dad died last year and we only got around to the mass cards this month. We loved the sympathy cards, the personal messages of condolence and anecdote. The mass cards meant less then nothing to us as all these people just went and paid a few quid, no thought, no meaning.
I would not have sent one anyway, but I will never again send anything unless I have something to say to the family.
At one point we were calculating the amount of money one of the local priests and another church made from the funeral. So cynical, money for the mass (abysmal, you would think they would get a little performance training?), money hand over fist for more masses in the cards, money for months mind(actually no, a family friend did a lovely service in the house), money for the years anniversary (not us, we decided not to bother)
what a racket.

OK, I know this comment is old, but it disgusts me so i'm going to take issue with it.

Your comment made me sick, physically.
You said the mass cards meant nothing to you, I can't get over that. Imagine an old woman that goes to mass every week of her life and starts each morning with a hail mary, I'm sure she can think of no better way to honour the dead then to give a mass card. And what, you laugh at it? you wouldn't wipe your arse with it? You say its cynical that you have to pay for the mass! that's most ironic thing I've ever heard because its you that's cynical. If you think that religion is so false, and that traditional religious condolences mean nothing, then why the **** didn't you hold a secular funeral!

redfacedbear

FiachDubh wrote: »

you wouldn't wipe your arse with it?

Are you suggesting one ought to wipe one's arse with it? Now that's disrespectful!

Weep! Wail! Won't somebody think of the poor little old ladies!

Dades

I mostly agree with FiachDubh's sentiments (who mentioned arse-wiping?)

Unless someone cynically buys a mass card for someone who died a staunch atheist, then it's a meaningful gesture from someone whose only frame of reference is the RC way of doing things. That the church make money from it is a different complaint, and should take nothing from the person who paid a few quid and said a few prayers in 'good faith'.

prestigio1977

Dades wrote: »

Good stuff.

If you don't mind me asking, how are your kids about this? Are they nominally catholic or did they start asking themselves questions at some point too?

I'd imagine once a parent looks behind the curtain, it doesn't take much for them to realise it's okay to think for themselves.

I don't mind you asking at all.
We have spoken about it and they say that that they believe in God and an afterlife and consider themselves Catholic, but they do accept my views. I do encourage them to think for themselves and I'm perfectly happy with whatever they choose to believe, so long as they're being true to themselves.

Solair

The only thing I found a little odd was I got two Mass cards at my leaving cert!

Clearly some of those elderly neighbours had very little confidence in my academic ability lol

robindch

FiachDubh wrote: »

Your comment made me sick, physically.

[...] you wouldn't wipe your arse with it?

A bit of consistency on your part wouldn't go amiss here. Please avoid references to arse-wiping in future. They really don't add much to the conversation.

thanks.

prestigio1977

Beruthiel wrote: »

Are you looking for answers elsewhere prestigio?
Do you feel there is a hole left that religion used to fill?
Don't know why, but I get that vibe from your posts.

Have you read any books? We have a thread on some good reads here.

Hi Beruthiel, I'm not sure if it's a hole to be filled, religion never really filled any hole for me! I think it's that I like the idea of likeminded people getting together and sharing their views and opinions. I have done some reading, not much now I will admit, it's just something I'm interested in. Thanks for the thread, I'll check it out.

Kiwi in IE

OK guys I'm going to have to ask a silly question. I realise that having resided in this country now for three years next month, I should know this already but; What is a mass card exactly?

Kiwi in IE

I thought they were the little cards from funerals with people's picture and prayers, but from reading in this thread about them being given for leaving cert and to living people, I realise I don't actually know what they are.

Kiwi in IE

Just looked it up and seems they are Catholic sympathy cards that have to be bought through the church. You can even buy 'bouquet' mass cards. Hmmmmmmm

redfacedbear

Dades wrote: »

I mostly agree with FiachDubh's sentiments

Ah yeah, "it's the thought that counts" would most likely be my attitude too. I did find the post quite hysterical in trying to make that point though.

Aoifums

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

OK guys I'm going to have to ask a silly question. I realise that having resided in this country now for three years next month, I should know this already but; What is a mass card exactly?

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I thought they were the little cards from funerals with people's picture and prayers, but from reading in this thread about them being given for leaving cert and to living people, I realise I don't actually know what they are.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Just looked it up and seems they are Catholic sympathy cards that have to be bought through the church. You can even buy 'bouquet' mass cards. Hmmmmmmm

You pretty much got it. Mass cards are sympathy cards but (apparently) a mass gets said for whoever the card is purchased for :rolleyes: Mass cards are for dead people, mass bouquets are for people who are still alive.

TheChizler

Aoifums wrote: »

You pretty much got it. Mass cards are sympathy cards but (apparently) a mass gets said for whoever the card is purchased for :rolleyes: Mass cards are for dead people, mass bouquets are for people who are still alive.

Aren't they legally protected actually? Newsagents aren't allowed to sell generic ones, they must be certified by the local parish? I think it was a big news item a few years ago, though the more I think about it it feels like it was just a dream I had...

Bannasidhe

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

OK guys I'm going to have to ask a silly question. I realise that having resided in this country now for three years next month, I should know this already but; What is a mass card exactly?

Buying a mass to be said for someone.

They get a greeting card with a priestly signature telling them a mass will be said for them - unless they are dead, in which case the family get it.