Clear Examples of Goodies Vs Baddies

Mickeroo · 11-03-2012 09:37PM

Dudess wrote: »

Well in the context of WWII alone, and not prior to that, the nazis and soviets were the clearcut baddies.

The russians fought with the allies in WWII......

Regardless of that its really not that simple, if the germans/japanese had won the war we'd all be disgusted with the war crimes commited by the allies.

Here's a couple of quotes from former US secretary of defence Robert McNamara to put things into perspective.

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command. Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?

History is written by the winners, there's no such thing as moral high ground when it comes to war, just different(not better or worse) points of view, it really is all about perspective.

karma_ · 11-03-2012 09:48PM

Let's not forget that Russia was not prepared for war when they were invaded, and the war the Germans brought was something new, it was total war with no quarter offered or given.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-03-2012 09:53PM

44leto wrote: »

The Israelis are not all that bad, if terrorists in Northern Ireland start randomly firing rockets into Dublin or anywhere in Ireland and the Northern Irish government turned a blind eye and Ireland had the military strength of the Israelis we would behave the exact same way. Nobody could tell me any different.

An awful lot of people in Northern Ireland were killed by explosions controlled by command wires into the Republic.

So Yes it happened, and No the UK security forces didn't launch any attacks down here, even though they had the military strength to do so.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-03-2012 10:08PM

Woo-sung Jung - the goodie
Byung-hun Lee - the baddie
Kang-ho Song - the weird

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0901487/
South Korean Western set in Japanese occupied Manchuria

Dudess · 11-03-2012 10:15PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Well in the context of WWII alone, and not prior to that, the nazis and soviets were the clearcut baddies.

The russians fought with the allies in WWII......

I know. The OP suggested "nazis - bad; allies - good" - I was saying it's not that clear-cut about the allies but the nazis were undoubtedly baddies. That's not a subjective view, they committed genocide.

Love Fog Of War btw.

Mickeroo · 11-03-2012 10:20PM

Dudess wrote: »

I know. The OP suggested "nazis - bad; allies - good" - I was saying it's not that clear-cut about the allies but the nazis were undoubtedly baddies. That's not a subjective view, they committed genocide.

Love Fog Of War btw.

Pardon, my mistake. Genocide is a pretty regular occurance in human cultures, its the efficiency at which they carried it out that set them apart. Again, they're only "evil" now because they lost the war. Don't get me wrong, I think they were evil too but I acknowledge I only think that because of the culture I live in. If you get what I mean...

44leto · 11-03-2012 10:24PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

An awful lot of people in Northern Ireland were killed by explosions controlled by command wires into the Republic.

So Yes it happened, and No the UK security forces didn't launch any attacks down here, even though they had the military strength to do so.

I just looked up the figure for last year and from the Palestinian territories 680 rockets and mortars were fired into gaza. I am willing to conjecture maybe 2 thirds of that figure is propaganda. From Lebonan there is an uneasy truce since the war but they are still firing the odd ones.

You want to tell me the command wire for 200 bombs in the whole of the troubles was in the republic??

Dudess · 11-03-2012 10:25PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

I know. The OP suggested "nazis - bad; allies - good" - I was saying it's not that clear-cut about the allies but the nazis were undoubtedly baddies. That's not a subjective view, they committed genocide.

Love Fog Of War btw.

Pardon, my mistake. Genocide is a pretty regular occurance in human cultures, its the efficiency at which they carried it out that set them apart. Again, they're only "evil" now because they lost the war. Don't get me wrong, I think they were evil too but I acknowledge I only think that because of the culture I live in. If you get what I mean...

I don't agree with all of that - the nazis wouldn't be considered evil if they won the war?

Mickeroo · 11-03-2012 10:33PM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't agree with all of that - the nazis wouldn't be considered evil if they won the war?

Pretty much, the history books certainly wouldn't have portrayed them that way, nor would the countless war movies etc. These things have a huge part to play in how our culture perceives the nazis. The nazis were well educated, intelligent, articulate people, they weren't crazed villains foaming at the mouth for jewish blood. If our culture was based around their ideals(as it mostt likely would be if they had won the war) there's no way we would see them as evil and if society at large does not see something as evil it is thereby no longer evil.

Dudess · 11-03-2012 10:41PM

I agree the nazis didn't behave like bloodthirsty savages or camp villains the way they've been portrayed in popular media, but surely they'd be considered baddies either way considering what they did to millions of people?

Jimoslimos · 11-03-2012 10:47PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

goodie saccharomyces cerevisiae

baddie candida albicans

All fungi are opportunistic baddies, drop your defences for a minute......

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0141022999000861

Killer Wench · 11-03-2012 10:47PM

WTF!

Outside the context of the stylized American western movie, since when have Indians (eye twitching at Injuns) been the bad guys?

Killer Wench · 11-03-2012 10:50PM

ThinksAmoral wrote: »

You'll never see a westernised movie where America is the baddie.

And I don't mean cowboys and Indians.

Not even this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_Iwo_Jima

Mickeroo · 11-03-2012 10:50PM

Dudess wrote: »

I agree the nazis didn't behave like bloodthirsty savages or camp villains the way they've been portrayed in popular media, but surely they'd be considered baddies either way considering what they did to millions of people?

Well you see to them the jews et al weren't really people, once a race or culture is considered sub-human its pretty easy to wipe them off the face of the earth without any qualms, this has happened a lot in human history. Take the african slaves for example, slave owners weren't evil people, the africans were just livestock to them, they were bought and sold like cattle and this was completely culturally acceptable at the time. Its completely repulsive now to the vast majority of people of course but if I had grown up in certain parts of the US back then I'd probably think its fine too, people went war to fight for their right to keep slaves sure.

Killer Wench · 11-03-2012 10:52PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Take the african slaves for example, slave owners weren't evil people, the africans were just livestock to them, they were bought and sold like cattle and this was completely culturally acceptable at the time.

I am assuming you mean that not all of them were downright evil doers whereas there were others that were.

hal9000 · 11-03-2012 10:54PM

Arnold Swarchenegger in Terminator 1 = Baddie
Arnold Swarchenegger in Terminator 2 = Goodie
Arnold Swarchenegger in Governor of California = Baddie

Mickeroo · 11-03-2012 10:55PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

I am assuming you mean that not all of them were downright evil doers whereas there were others that were.

Depends what you mean, I don't think anyone at the time could be called evil because they kept slaves.

Killer Wench · 11-03-2012 11:00PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Depends what you mean, I don't think anyone at the time could be called evil because they kept slaves.

I disagree when you consider that babies were taken from the arms of their mothers to be sold, and then were used as feet warmers. Then, you have the stories of the women who were raped and the men who were made into eunuchs. Nah, some of them were quite evil.

Mickeroo · 11-03-2012 11:06PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

I disagree when you consider that babies were taken from the arms of their mothers to be sold, and then were used as feet warmers. Then, you have the stories of the women who were raped and the men who were made into eunuchs. Nah, some of them were quite evil.

Yes I don't condone any of that stuff but the act of keeping a slave in itself was not considered evil at the time. You're also making the mistake of applying our morals to another culture, remember you and I see the slaves as humans, a lot of people at the time would not have. There's things we do today that will most likely be considered equally as repulsive in 300 years time. There's thousands of cultures where our social taboos aren't considered taboos at all.

Dudess · 11-03-2012 11:07PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

WTF!

Outside the context of the stylized American western movie, since when have Indians (eye twitching at Injuns) been the bad guys?

I think they're being ironic. Hope so anyway.

quickbeam · 11-03-2012 11:18PM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't agree with all of that - the nazis wouldn't be considered evil if they won the war?

I fear that they wouldn't have been considered evil if they won the war. It's a scary prospect but it does happen time and again in history.

Consider the Crusades - Richard I of England, glorified as The Lionheart, played as honourable and chivalrous in countless movies - he committed horrible attrocites throughtout the Middle East on his campagin that were considered shocking even for their time. Yet now he's undeniably seen as the goodie by most.

Killer Wench · 12-03-2012 01:07AM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yes I don't condone any of that stuff but the act of keeping a slave in itself was not considered evil at the time. You're also making the mistake of applying our morals to another culture, remember you and I see the slaves as humans, a lot of people at the time would not have. There's things we do today that will most likely be considered equally as repulsive in 300 years time. There's thousands of cultures where our social taboos aren't considered taboos at all.

Unlike you, Black slaves aren't just humans. They are my actual gg-grandparents. I know the atrocities done against them as their stories were passed down from generation to generation. There were evil slaveholders; they weren't just products of their time.

If you ever hear of a man picking up a baby and slamming its head against a wagon wheel, that's pretty damn evil.

Mickeroo · 12-03-2012 01:49AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

Unlike you, Black slaves aren't just humans. They are my actual gg-grandparents. I know the atrocities done against them as their stories were passed down from generation to generation. There were evil slaveholders; they weren't just products of their time.

If you ever hear of a man picking up a baby and slamming its head against a wagon wheel, that's pretty damn evil.

I'm not denying that, but they were products of their time, everybody is. Thats beside the point anyway, the point i was trying to make that someone who was a slaveholder was not evil by default(even though it's grossly immoral by our standards), if they were a sadistic bastard(which is what you're talking about) thats a different story, there could be other stuff at play there. I'm not talking about any other atrocities that were carried out towards black slaves, I'm only referring to the act of owning a slave which was perfectly acceptable at the time.