What could we miss out on by not baptising?

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

This has kind of been asked before, but was a good while ago, so hope don't mind me starting a new thread.

....

We're thinking of not baptising our now six-month child and are wondering if she will practically miss out on anything - particularly schooling. But also anything else we might not have considered.

There's absolutely no moral objection to any of the religions, just seems like we would be going through the motions. Although if means she has more certain access to good schools then we would be happy to baptise her for that practical reason. No reason why she should miss out on going to a good school just because the schooling system gives preference to religiosity.

Is religion still a factor in school admittance? We're in Howth-Sutton where the primary schools seems to be identifiably either Protestant / Catholic and we wouldn't have any connection to the schools to get in on the 'child of a former student' rule. Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school, but no idea if this is actually necessary, and not sure if school can overtly tell you that it is important.

What's in the back of my mind is that where I went to school there were three schools - two Catholics schools and a 'tech' (think that's what it was called). The tech was the non-religious school but also the dodgy school; you would have been quite disadvantaged in you had ended up there. Just not sure if that type of schooling is still in place.

I am a friend

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school

I am really shocked that anyone would make this statement to be honest.

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

mcbert

I am a friend wrote: »

I am really shocked that anyone would make this statement to be honest.

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

Shocked? Really? A little out of touch there me thinks! Its pretty common.

If there was more choice in non-religious schools, people wouldnt have to resort to this sort of nonsense. I dont condone it, but it has been forced onto alot of people.

I know a couple who, after a catholic baptism, were then considering having a protestant baptism to get their child into a different/better(in their opinion) school.

mikemac1

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

We're thinking of not baptising our now six-month child and are wondering if she will practically miss out on anything

Well they won't be getting the sacraments, first holy confession, first communion and so on.
So for a primary school they can go sit in another classroom to be supervised. No big deal but all children will feel left out.
You asked for a practical example and there is one

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Is religion still a factor in school admittance? We're in Howth-Sutton where the primary schools seems to be identifiably either Protestant / Catholic and we wouldn't have any connection to the schools to get in on the 'child of a former student' rule.

Schools must have a policy and you are free to call in and ask for a copy.
Having brothers or sisters there is a common one, living in the locality is another, some use waiting lists and there are lots of different policies and it's up to the school how they rank them.

So ask for the policy from the local schools and read them.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school, but no idea if this is actually necessary, and not sure if school can overtly tell you that it is important.

All too common attitude and once you read the schools admissions policies it might be unneccesary

You obviously don't care about religion, fair enough but maybe then don't baptize the child and they can make their own decision when they are older

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

What's in the back of my mind is that where I went to school there were three schools - two Catholics schools and a 'tech' (think that's what it was called).

You're talking about primary schools.
I know for secondary school our town had a CBS, what we called the convent for girls as nuns ran it and the tech was run by the local VEC
All as good as each other realy. You live in a city so maybe it's much the same for primary schools

gbee

mcbert wrote: »

Shocked? Really? A little out of touch there me thinks! Its pretty common.

Seemingly some 80% of parents just follow on for convenience while holding no religious faith whatsoever. So, pretty common it certainly is.

Draupnir

I am a friend wrote: »

I am really shocked that anyone would make this statement to be honest.

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

That's your opinion of religion. Others unfortunately see it as a nonsense that acts as a barrier to entry for innocent children to a proper education.

It's not the OP's fault that schools prejudge children based upon membership of another, completely unrelated, organisation.

Grawns

I'm not so easily shocked but I wouldn't baptise my child as a catholic because I hate the institution of the Catholic church. Hate is probably not a strong enough word. I certainly wouldn't judge you for doing it but unless you are a Protestant the church might look askance at you for baptising your child as a Protestant. Luckily for me my husband is Protestant so we can baptise her if we need to. I would rather not but education is very important and getting into a good school is the best start.

My 1st choice school, (excellent and only a short walk) says religion is not a criteria for entry even though it is nominally a catholic school. I put her religion down as Protestant on the application form.

Get in touch with the schools you are interested in and find out their enrollment policies.

gbee

My view suggest that it's child abuse to bring up a child in a religion, any one of them. The child needs to be free to explore and if it wants religion there are many available and one does not need to be tied to one only.

So, I applaud your thinking and I do respect your opinion that religion would not be a stumbling block, as you are rightly putting your child's benefit first.

mcbert

gbee wrote: »

Seemingly some 80% of parents just follow on for convenience while holding no religious faith whatsoever. So, pretty common it certainly is.

Ohh, interesting. Where d'ya get that number from? My partner wanted our child baptised. I didnt. So we all went to the church, and I just sat there and didnt take part in the ceremony. I took a small stand, made my point, nobody else cared in the slightest.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Draupnir wrote: »

That's your opinion of religion. Others unfortunately see it as a nonsense that acts as a barrier to entry for innocent children to a proper education.

It's not the OP's fault that schools prejudge children based upon membership of another, completely unrelated, organisation.

Thanks!

Sorry might have sounded flippant in OP. Would attach strong importance to idea of spirituality, but tbh couldn't keep up the pretence of supporting a religion. But if system is set up in such a way as to favour expressed religiosity, then surely natural to take account of that.

To use an analogy, if you can raise a child's reading ability by reading to them at night, then you will probably want to do that. Similarly, if you can raise a child's reading ability by getting them into a good school that requires a particular religion, then that's also something to at least consider. We all do these socially necessary things

Orion

Not specifically a parenting or school question so moving to A&A.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

mikemac1 wrote: »

Well they won't be getting the sacraments, first holy confession, first communion and so on.
So for a primary school they can go sit in another classroom to be supervised. No big deal but all children will feel left out.
You asked for a practical example and there is one

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

Mark Hamill

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

You know that you can put your 7 year old in a dress without having to bring them to a church as well? The church doesn't own all white dresses.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Orion wrote: »

Not specifically a parenting or school question so moving to A&A.

hmm guess Orion didn't actually read the thread before moving as specifically was asking about schooling

mcbert

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

My memory of that day is of boys being most interested in the money they got, and the girls comparing their dresses with each other. Kind of a clichéd memory... religion was a distant third anyway (if it was even at the races at all)

kylith

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

Is one ceremony worth years of indoctrination, and preaching that the child will go to hell?

Orion

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

But also anything else we might not have considered.

This was the reason - the op was fairly open - schooling or any other considerations. If you want to move it back that's fine by me too.

robindch

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

There's absolutely no moral objection to any of the religions,

Have a read up on them. Even better, read the bible.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Is religion still a factor in school admittance?

Yes. Schools which are controlled by unelected religious officials are able, at a whim, to refuse to educate any child on religious "grounds" alone.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school, but no idea if this is actually necessary, and not sure if school can overtly tell you that it is important.

As above, you might want to find out what's religious people will tell your child before you decide to leave them to it.

WRT management, here's an article which appeared in yesterday's Irish Times by somebody who claims to have been on the board of management of a school controlled by religious officials:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0306/1224312846810.html

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Orion wrote: »

This was the reason - the op was fairly open - schooling or any other considerations. If you want to move it back that's fine by me too.

ahh sorry! Would that be possible to move back? Maybe I could just specify that specifically talking about schooling related. By 'any other considerations' I meant, but didn't clarify, purely practical things like official documents etc. We're fairly clueless on the whole religion thing hence the 'and anything else'. But think its around now need to at least start considering schools, so that's the more immediate concern.

Zamboni

It is a fairly serious issue if you choose not to baptise a child in Ireland from an education perspective.
With the current baby boom recorded by the CSO and the Catholic First ethos undertaken by a vast amont of Catholic schools, it will be incredibly difficult to find a schooling place for your child without a baptism.
This is of course changing with the increasing number of Educate Together Schools but it is at a very slow pace and certainly not at a pace which will meet the demand for non catholic school places.
The current and indeed pipelined Educate Together schools are already vastly over subscribed on pre-enrolements.

gbee

mcbert wrote: »

I took a small stand, made my point, nobody else cared in the slightest.

I'm very sorry, maybe I should make that 100%

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Thanks for all the responses by the way, very interesting.

LordSutch

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

What could we miss out on by not baptising?

Schools (choice of).

Marriage?

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

LordSutch wrote: »

Schools (choice of).

Marriage?

Confused as to last one; but are most primary schools still religious? i.e. do we realistically have to suck-it-up and pick a religion if we want a good choice of schools? (nearest Educate Together is too far away in Kilbarrack).

magicbastarder

i'm curious as to how easy it is for two catholics to turn up at the door of a protestant church and get their kid baptised there?
if the parents are not familiar with the faith, surely there would be question marks about their ability to raise the kid in that faith?

Orion

Zamboni wrote: »

Catholic First ethos undertaken by a vast amont of Catholic schools, it will be incredibly difficult to find a schooling place for your child without a baptism.

Actually not all Catholic school operate a Catholic first policy. I was guilty of thinking that myself but one of the Primary mods recently set me straight - he works in a catholic school who don't use religion as an enrolment criteria.

Every school has its own enrolment policy. Any parent can (and should) get a copy of it and read it before enrolling.

Penn

School is the big issue. Have you checked to see if there are any Educate Together schools (non-religious) nearby that you could send your child to?

http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools-start-up-groups/#

MrPudding

LordSutch wrote: »

Marriage?

ONly baptised epople can get married now? :eek:

MrP

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm curious as to how easy it is for two catholics to turn up at the door of a protestant church and get their kid baptised there?
if the parents are not familiar with the faith, surely there would be question marks about their ability to raise the kid in that faith?

ah I'm Catholic but wife is Orthodox, so there should be a bit of flexibility in terms of choice. Think I've heard of an increase in Catholic parents christening their kids Protestant, but could easily have imagined that. Although ideally would just let the child make her own mind up rather than giving her a randomly selected religion, which seems like a somewhat out-of-date way of doing things.

robindch

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Confused as to last one; but are most primary schools still religious?

Around 98% are controlled by religious organizations -- 93% by the RCC, 5% by a range of protestant organizations and a smattering of minor ones, and around 2% by Educate Together who run their schools in an open, democratic manner with the full participation of parents.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

do we realistically have to suck-it-up and pick a religion if we want a good choice of schools? (nearest Educate Together is too far away in Kilbarrack).

If you have no ET school close by, then you may have to do some religious kowtowing. It depends completely on the school, and on the board of management, principal, etc. Some schools are unashamedly sectarian and others couldn't care less -- you'll simply have to suck it and see. Or speak to parents who have kids in the various schools in your area and find out what they had to do. Bear in mind that picking a religion in order to be able to ensure that your child receives an education appears to be quite common.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Orion wrote: »

Actually not all Catholic school operate a Catholic first policy. I was guilty of thinking that myself but one of the Primary mods recently set me straight - he works in a catholic school who don't use religion as an enrolment criteria.

Every school has its own enrolment policy. Any parent can (and should) get a copy of it and read it before enrolling.

Actually threw out the brochure from one of the local schools, must get it again. Do you know whether even if religion is not an enrolment criteria, that 'no religion at all', might be frowned upon? Or is it literally that they simply do not consider anything to do with religiosity?

/ Thanks for all the responses. Seems like the next step is really to contact the local schools and see what their policies are, as that's presumably going to be the key factor.

runawaybishop

I baptised my kid purely so he wouldn't be left out when the school was doing communion/confirmation etc. Shouldn't have bothered. I was imagining him sitting by himself in class as all his friends were off doing stuff in school time but the reality is there are a significant amount of kids in his class that aren't involved in any of the religious outings.

I would imagine that these days this is becoming more and more prevalent.

Apart from that, the muck they get taught about religion in school and the influence the church has, makes it really hard for me to bite my tongue, but that's just me I guess

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

robindch wrote: »

Around 98% are controlled by religious organizations -- 93% by the RCC, 5% by a range of protestant organizations and a smattering of minor ones, and around 2% by Educate Together who run their schools in an open, democratic manner with the full participation of parents.If you have no ET school close by, then you may have to do some religious kowtowing. It depends completely on the school, and on the board of management, principal, etc. Some schools are unashamedly sectarian and others couldn't care less -- you'll simply have to suck it and see. Or speak to parents who have kids in the various schools in your area and find out what they had to do. Bear in mind that picking a religion in order to be able to ensure that your child receives an education appears to be quite common.

That's great Robin thanks! Oh wouldn't even be a seconds thought if there was an Educate Together school nearby. Have heard only excellent things about those schools.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote: »

ONly baptised epople can get married now? :eek:

MrP

And even if that were the case, there is nothing stopping them deciding as adults to get baptised before the wedding. There is not some kind of limited time window on it

Dades

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

/ Thanks for all the responses. Seems like the next step is really to contact the local schools and see what their policies are, as that's presumably going to be the key factor.

That seemed to me to be a first step.

Most schools have their enrolment policies on their website. Failing that, an (anonymous!) phone call should sort it out. Be warned though, as per Robin's post from earlier today - don't take anything for granted. Religious school boards may be espousing one policy and applying another.

The very best thing would be to try and talk with parents whose kids are in that school - ideally ones who aren't baptised. You should also find out how over-subscribed or not those schools are.

My take would be if the religious school you want is oversubscribed - find another school unless you're willing to splash the child.

pwurple

We were in the same boat, and after a review of the local schools went for the baptism. We will be teaching our children to be critical thinkers anyway, and let them make up their own minds in their own time, as we did.

The vows are very full on, but our thinking was that it's less of a fuss to do this now, rather than try to get a 7 year old baptised later if she wants to do communion with her pals. Plus, it really was a big deal to the older generation. I had no idea how much, as none of the cousins got baptised and they never batted an eyelid. But they told us it made a huge difference to them, and they hugely appreciated being able to go to the ceremony and welcome the baby. There was a 100 year old christening robe produced, and the same candle used as was used for 4 generations etc.

robindch

pwurple wrote: »

The vows are very full on

They're intended to be -- this is cult psychology, after all.

A few years back, down the country, I was at some religious knees up for a neice (must have been a confirmation) and the bish was up on the stage, doing his back and forth with the mike, hamming it up, really getting into the whole thing. Eventually he got around to addressing the kids, thusly:

Bish: And you're all here of your own free will?
Kids (en masse): YES!

Straight out of Monty Python and myself and my neice's dad creased ourselves.

pwurple wrote: »

But they told us it made a huge difference to them, and they hugely appreciated being able to go to the ceremony and welcome the baby. There was a 100 year old christening robe produced, and the same candle used as was used for 4 generations etc.

The robe + candle work just as well outside a church

Zamboni

pwurple wrote: »

We were in the same boat, and after a review of the local schools went for the baptism. We will be teaching our children to be critical thinkers anyway, and let them make up their own minds in their own time, as we did.

I am in the position right now and I am attempting to go the route of non baptism.
I don't judge you, you have to do what is right by your child.
But we need people like you to stand up and say 'no more'.
The more parents that don't baptise their children then the harder and harder it is for the educational authorities to ignore the call for change.

I would genuinely call on any non catholic parents to be to step up and fight the good fight.
Contact Educate Together, canvass your local politicians, fight the catholic first ethos in schools were it exists, join AI etc...
This will not change unless the demand is screamingly obvious and even then it will still be a tough fight.

DHennessy

the only thing i would be worried about missing out on is the money you get for your communion and confirmation

pwurple

Zamboni wrote: »

I am in the position right now and I am attempting to go the route of non baptism.
I don't judge you, you have to do what is right by your child.
But we need people like you to stand up and say 'no more'.

You have assumed I lay down and rolled over because it was the easier path. Not so. I'm well able to stand up for myself and my principles.

We chose this route after considerable thought. We are absolutely a la carte catholics, and not apologetic for it. Non believers, who partake wholeheartedly in the cultural aspects of catholicism because I think it's part of our identity and heritage. It's not something I would ever want to eliminate from our lives. I also appreciate that even though it is perhaps disingenuous of me, coming from a catholic upbringing has given me a particular perspective on irish literature, art, theater etc. What would ulysess mean to me if I didn't remember a bit of the mass? Would Fr Ted be even remotely funny if I hadn't been through a school run by nuns?

We enjoy celebrating Christmas with cribs and advent calendars, Easter with the eggs, pancake Tuesday.... and I do get consolation from funeral services when my loved ones have died. I feel I'm a hypocrite if I do all of those without giving our child some background and a frame of reference about WHY we do them. But I'm also a hypocrite if I do a baptism without believing in any god. It only needed a very slight tip on the scales to push us in either direction, and that tipping point was the schools.

And no, I doubt something with the history and meaning to those people of a century old christening robe and 4th generation baptism candle would have been produced for something outside the church.

hibride

All the schools in my area leave the non-baptized kids behind... They plainly ask in the enrollment form which is the child's religion, and to attach a copy of the baptism form or whatever is called, and when visiting the schools they plainly tell you that they give priority to Catholics/Protestants/whatever religion the School relates to. The rest of the children, even if they were enrolled before, go automatically the last of the list, meaning they can't probably get a place in the school. And we are talking about public schools, which is a shame. So yes, I baptized my little girl some weeks ago, after more than two years of deep thinking. It was a nice ceremony and I respect all religions. It didn't feel good to have to do it just to allow my little girl to have the same educational opportunities than baptized kids have. The Government should ensure that all citizens have the same rights, and in Ireland that's not true when it comes to education, I'm afraid

hibride

Zamboni wrote: »

I am in the position right now and I am attempting to go the route of non baptism.
I don't judge you, you have to do what is right by your child.
But we need people like you to stand up and say 'no more'.
The more parents that don't baptise their children then the harder and harder it is for the educational authorities to ignore the call for change.

I would genuinely call on any non catholic parents to be to step up and fight the good fight.
Contact Educate Together, canvass your local politicians, fight the catholic first ethos in schools were it exists, join AI etc...
This will not change unless the demand is screamingly obvious and even then it will still be a tough fight.

Zamboni, you are completely right. I wish I had the strength and the time to start the "fight". It was just too much. And I suppose they have a census of baptized children, which I have helped to enlarge; so apparently Ireland has a 90 something percent of Catholics (which of course it's not true), and they (whoever is they) can use it to say "who cares? Most of the population is Catholic. Enough you have 2% of Educate Together Schools"

gbee

Just a little note, a change seems to be happening at Confirmation, numbers are down, as much as 1/3rd in some schools ~ say 60 in three classes and 40 present at the church.

Whilst there are many reasons for this, simply not taking the sacrament is a now a recognised part.

Rabidlamb

Our local catholic primary school is about a 7-iron from my front door, for convenience it was the only choice.
We had no problem enrolling our little 4 year old devil worshiper.
When I told the lady at the desk he didn't have a baptismal cert she said "that's OK, you can just post it on".:rolleyes:
The principal was there at the time & overheard, he brought me aside to tell me that unofficial policy was that the oldest kids got in first.
The teachers would rather a more mature heathen kid than a uncontrollable pissy pants god botherer.

The principal asked us for our policy on religion class whether we wanted him excluded.
I listened to the nonsense for 13 years & it had no affect on me, I wanted him to sit in on it, as a parent I will set him right.
Soon I must plan "Free Money for my 7 year old BBQ celebration", hope the weather's good.

Helix

I am a friend wrote: »

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

it's about the only reasonable use for religion to be fair

RichieC

Helix wrote: »

it's about the only reasonable use for religion to be fair

And it's not even reasonable..

kylith

I'd get some kick out of getting my child baptised.

Priest: Do you reject Satan?
Me: No
P: And all his works?
M: No
P: And all his empty promises?
M: Nope.
P: ????
M: Hey, the school is making me do this, just sign the paper already.

I wonder what they'd do...

ShooterSF

kylith wrote: »

I'd get some kick out of getting my child baptised.

Priest: Do you reject Satan?
Me: No
P: And all his works?
M: No
P: And all his empty promises?
M: Nope.
P: ????
M: Hey, the school is making me do this, just sign the paper already.

I wonder what they'd do...

You could always name your child Satan and go for a "who's on first" style comical confusion skit...

"Do you reject Satan?"
"Of course not, he's my child"
"No not your child, Satan"
"I only have one child"

etc...