playing during a comp..??

Anatom

The Grump should have been a bit more gracious and a lot more self-aware. If he and his little group are five holes behind anyone - member or visitor, senior or juvenile, in competition or out - he should get a bit of perspective and common sense.

The reason he pulled you up is because he's a grump and because you were a juvenile at the time. You should have stood up to him and told him, politely of course, where to go. You definitely should not have walked off.

Yes, of course there are rules and rules are there for the good of all members of a club, but that's what you're talking about - members of a club, the same club. You should be looking out for each other, and older members should be mindful of allowing their own club's young talent to develop. They may well need it in the future, especially now with clubs fighting to hold on to and attract new members.

BoardsMember

It's quite simple. Greebo is right. Rules must be obeyed.

If there is a problem being highlighted here, it is that there is a problem with the rules.

It's quite an Irish approach to suggest that because the rule is not as good as it should be, it is ok to break it. You'll quickly end up with a culture of everyone evaluating how good or bad the rule is, before deciding whether to obey it.

If people cant see this, they must not be trying hard enough, it really is quite simple. The specific examples posted all highlight issues that should be addresses, namely representation of non-voting member issues at the AGM, a more flexible approach to course access based on the say-so of the professional etc etc.

It's all very do-able, but it has to be done with the rules in mind. I'm not saying the alternative is outright anarchy, but when rules are broken, people see rules being broken, and learn that it's ok to break rules. It's black and white. Work on getting the rules right. If you dont like the rules, and arent prepared to work towards better rules, then find another club.

GreeBo

^ What he said.

Anatom

BoardsMember, its very unusual to see GreeBo's views being endorsed by anyone ^.

I do take your point though, but hard cases make bad law, as the saying goes. Just because its in the rules doesn't mean that when situations allow, those rules shouldn't be made to be more flexible - for the benefit of the club's own members.

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Greebo, i choose not to obey stupid rules like this and exercise common sense. The course was completely empty and we had a look at the timesheet which said next group wasn't for an hour and a bit. Said it to the guy in the pro shop and he said he saw nothing but basically we couldn't use him as any back up etc. (basically he exercised common sense).

But dont you see that its not for you to decide what rules to obey and what not to obey?

Redzah wrote: »

Yes i very much think that the local grump was wrong, as he had nothing to gain from acting the way he did apart from gaining a sense of power over a juvenile member just trying to improve his game. Please bear in mind we demonstated course etiquette and were nowhere near any other group.

Erm, he was upholding the rules of YOUR club. Sense of power doesnt come into it. And you were most definitely NOT demonstrating course etiquette, you were playing when you were not allowed!

Redzah wrote: »

I cannot bring this up at the AGM as i had no voting rights as a juvenile member. So basically, I told him that if he had such a problem with it then to report me. I called his bluff and he didn't as he would only embarrass himself based on the facts of the case;

Again, you demonstrated fabulous etiquette. Perhaps the reason juveniles are not allowed to play at those times or vote is because some of them are very immature and act like petulant little boys when they cant do what they want?

Redzah wrote: »

Then what the fcuk is the problem. Its a substance over form arguement here for me with common sense being the substance and the rules being the form.

Common sense cannot be applied to the common people. Thats why we have rules. Sure lots of 16 year olds can drive perfectly well, but the law doesnt let them and thats that.


To be perfectly honest you seem to have been one of those talented (golfwise) juveniles who believes that all the older members who perhaps are not as good golfers should just "get over themselves" and accept that you are the lifeblood of the club blah blah blah.

Its their club much more than yours mate. You arent even paying a full sub!
You are benefiting from their hard cash over the last X years and to be brutally honest, you need to respect that, and the rules of THEIR club.

BoardsMember

Anatom wrote: »

BoardsMember, its very unusual to see GreeBo's views being endorsed by anyone ^.

I hadn't realised that

Anatom wrote: »

I do take your point though, but hard cases make bad law, as the saying goes. Just because its in the rules doesn't mean that when situations allow, those rules shouldn't be made to be more flexible - for the benefit of the club's own members.

That's exactly my point, where there is a bad or unfair rule you change the rule.

blackwaterfish

gymman39 wrote: »

my friend is a full member of a club in the midlands and went out yesterday with a friend to play 9 holes before the rugby.
He knew there was a comp on yesterday and told his friend that if there was a crowd around they would just head home..
When arriving there was nobody on the first tee and they headed out and teed off and when leaving the tee box they were challanged by a guy about playing during a comp.
My friend got annoyed as in the current climate he felt people should be made feel welcome in clubs and not brought to task.He knows that probably by the letter of the law in should not have teed off but the nearest group were on the 3rd and when he got to the 3rd tee box nobody had left the 1st so there was plenty of room...

What do u guys think???

you were obviously wearing jeans.

:pac:

Dtoffee

Redzah wrote: »

Ah come on, as if a few casual golfers playing in between what in this case was a substantial gap puts anybody who goes off behind them at a disadvantage. Raking bunkers, repairing divots and obeying etiquette is a whole different issue and should be dealt with accordingly but these guys were playing in a substantial gap holding up nobody and would not affect any guys that were teeing off after them from what I gather. I don't expect these guys to be left out if their is only 1 time gap on the competition sheet but the substantial gap the OP spoke about is different and common sense needs to be exercised in this case.

Your views are exactly those of the grumps i speak about who walk around with a chip on their shoulder. I bet anytime your ball goes into a divot or an unraked bunker and the next group who are 5 holes ahead not in the competition it must send u bananas. Consider that it could well be a group 9 holes ahead in the competition who did not rake the bunker etc. Poor etiquette is poor etiquette whether in the comp or not but common sense needs to be exercised in the case of what the OP has said and there is not enough of it around in golf clubs these days.

Common sense is you respect the rules of golf and your club and if that means you cant nip out and play nine holes during competition time, then you respect it. If you allow casual golfers out when theres a gap in the tee times, then you are opening the door for everyone to do the same week in wek out and soon enough you will have issues. Respect the rules and respect your fellow golfers, playing casual golf without permission during a competition is not acceptable in my old fashioned grumpy view...... maybe have a look at the chip on your own shoulder when it comes to rules and bending them under the guise of common sense.

BraveDonut

Its like all rules in golf - some of them at first glance appear to be a bit silly and over the top. It's only when you think about not implementing them exactly according to the rule book where the problems occur. People try to stretch them and take advantage which then leads to blatant disregard.
The rule in question may not suit the person it is affecting right at that time, but it has been added to the book of rules to cover the majority of scenarios......

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

But dont you see that its not for you to decide what rules to obey and what not to obey?


Erm, he was upholding the rules of YOUR club. Sense of power doesnt come into it. And you were most definitely NOT demonstrating course etiquette, you were playing when you were not allowed!

Again, you demonstrated fabulous etiquette. Perhaps the reason juveniles are not allowed to play at those times or vote is because some of them are very immature and act like petulant little boys when they cant do what they want?



Common sense cannot be applied to the common people. Thats why we have rules. Sure lots of 16 year olds can drive perfectly well, but the law doesnt let them and thats that.


To be perfectly honest you seem to have been one of those talented (golfwise) juveniles who believes that all the older members who perhaps are not as good golfers should just "get over themselves" and accept that you are the lifeblood of the club blah blah blah.

Its their club much more than yours mate. You arent even paying a full sub!
You are benefiting from their hard cash over the last X years and to be brutally honest, you need to respect that, and the rules of THEIR club.

But Greebo, don't u see that its not up to any old member (not on committee) to enforce the rules of the club as he his on a power trip. Its the committee or GM's job. If we all took the law into our own hands where would our society be today.

You seem to be one of the grumps I am talking about, have a chip on your shoulder if somebody does something u don't like when it should not effect u in the slightest and you most likely try to enforce rules when it is not ur place to.

Most of these grumps fit into a similiar demography i.e. over 40, no kids or kids that don't play golf, usually short in stature under 5'9 so compensate with a big mouth, an average golfer 9+ handicap (very important as i've yet to come accross a cat 1 player who fits all the above and acts like a grump).

Lifeblood of the club is an important factor financially as well as socially for the future of the club and should not be underestimated IMO

FixdePitchmark

Redzah wrote: »

Most of these grumps fit into a similiar demography i.e. over 40, no kids or kids that don't play golf, usually short in stature under 5'9 so compensate with a big mouth, an average golfer 9+ handicap (very important as i've yet to come accross a cat 1 player who fits all the above and acts like a grump).

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::mad::(:o:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

If your below 5'9. That is mad ****.

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

But Greebo, don't u see that its not up to any old member (not on committee) to enforce the rules of the club as he his on a power trip. Its the committee or GM's job. If we all took the law into our own hands where would our society be today.

Its a club. Of course its up to each member to enforce the rules of the club. Being on committee has nothing to do with enforcing the rules
The GM runs the business of the club, he doesnt police the rules of the club.
Members vote on rules of their club. As a full member he was perfectly entitled to call you up on breaking the rules. Your handicap doesnt exclude you from the rules young padawan.

Redzah wrote: »

You seem to be one of the grumps I am talking about, have a chip on your shoulder if somebody does something u don't like when it should not effect u in the slightest and you most likely try to enforce rules when it is not ur place to.

You seem to be one of those people who think rules dont apply to them because of your handicap.

Redzah wrote: »

Most of these grumps fit into a similiar demography i.e. over 40, no kids or kids that don't play golf, usually short in stature under 5'9 so compensate with a big mouth, an average golfer 9+ handicap (very important as i've yet to come accross a cat 1 player who fits all the above and acts like a grump).

The farce is strong in this one. :rolleyes:
Refer to my previous comment on the maturity of juveniles.

Redzah wrote: »

Lifeblood of the club is an important factor financially as well as socially for the future of the club and should not be underestimated IMO

Yeah and society needs rules and needs people to obey the rules that society has decided on. Its not golf according to Redzah you know, sorry to burst that bubble.

alfalad

Don't normally post here, but interested in the thread. Would anyone say it to the pro if he decided to nip out for 9 holes when there was a half hour gap in the timesheet of a comp. I have seen it happen, and a well enough known club pro at that.
Would those who feel strongly against the OP feel the same way against the pro?

Rules may be rules but every day in court people who break them are judged not guilty despite having broken them/or it is deemed not worth worrying about.

I don't think anyone would agree with taking one free spot and then holding up the comp, it appears that in this case that was not an issue so a little common sense has to be used. The reason rules cannot be changed to adapt to such situations is common sense has to be usedin most cases.

link_2007

Redzah wrote: »

You seem to be one of the grumps I am talking about, have a chip on your shoulder if somebody does something u don't like when it should not effect u in the slightest and you most likely try to enforce rules when it is not ur place to.

Most of these grumps fit into a similiar demography i.e. over 40, no kids or kids that don't play golf, usually short in stature under 5'9 so compensate with a big mouth, an average golfer 9+ handicap (very important as i've yet to come accross a cat 1 player who fits all the above and acts like a grump).

So from one post by Greebo you have determined his age, height, parental status, golf handicap and emotional disposition.

Do you do lotto numbers?

matt-dublin

@Greebo, its not up to the members to enforce the rule but to inform the club of breach of rules.

the comittee is there to enforce the rules.

We had a similar issue recently with our old captain asking everyone on the coure in the evenings were they memebers and questioning whether they should be on the course or not.

I personally don't think its his position to do that but more out of a safety perspective, if he was to cross someone he shouldn't god knows what the consiquences might be.

If someone has a gripe with what someone else is doing on the course it should be reported to the club and not actioned by members.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Its a club. Of course its up to each member to enforce the rules of the club. Being on committee has nothing to do with enforcing the rules
The GM runs the business of the club, he doesnt police the rules of the club.
Members vote on rules of their club. As a full member he was perfectly entitled to call you up on breaking the rules. Your handicap doesnt exclude you from the rules young padawan.

You seem to be one of those people who think rules dont apply to them because of your handicap.


The farce is strong in this one. :rolleyes:
Refer to my previous comment on the maturity of juveniles.


Yeah and society needs rules and needs people to obey the rules that society has decided on. Its not golf according to Redzah you know, sorry to burst that bubble.

Greebo, you can't have everyone going around policing the place, thats what a committee are there for IMO not even you old timer have this right.

Say if McGinners rocks up to the grange during a break in the timesheet in the monthly medal and you and the other grumps are the next group teeing off 30 mins after he tees of. Are you going to enforce the law and let this rule breaker know that he's not allowed to play? Didn't think so!!!

I don't think the rules are above me but there are certain times where the rules can be bent when it just makes sense i.e. a huge gap in the timesheet.

My point on the fact that it is rarely a cat 1 golfer who trys to enforce some of this laws limiting juvenilles playing is because they know that it will only bring their game on getting out and playing when they can and as long as they are not getting in the way then it can only be positive for the future of the club and irish golf. You view is short sighted in this regard as all u care about is that it is technically in breach of the rules. A more knowledgeable and less selfish golfer can oversee this rules breach and determine its not harming anybody or anything as there is a big gap in the timesheet.

Greebo, i'm a full member of my current club but would always support the development of juvenilles as I have been there and dealt with your kind previously. I know what it takes to reach a top level through my own experience and through watching colleagues and friends who have played at a higher level than me. I also have seen the barriers in place that prevent this development, and the attitude that you are demonstrating is one of the larger barriers any juvenille should expect to come across.

Redzah

link_2007 wrote: »

So from one post by Greebo you have determined his age, height, parental status, golf handicap and emotional disposition.

Do you do lotto numbers?

4 8 15 16 23 42

Just usually these guys fit a certain demography, not all may apply to Greebo but i'm sure some do.

GreeBo

matt-dublin wrote: »

@Greebo, its not up to the members to enforce the rule but to inform the club of breach of rules.

the comittee is there to enforce the rules.

We had a similar issue recently with our old captain asking everyone on the coure in the evenings were they memebers and questioning whether they should be on the course or not.

I personally don't think its his position to do that but more out of a safety perspective, if he was to cross someone he shouldn't god knows what the consiquences might be.

If someone has a gripe with what someone else is doing on the course it should be reported to the club and not actioned by members.

You say reported to "the club" as if the club is some other entity that doesnt include the members.
In any normal members club, the members are the club. The GM runs the club as a business, the committee are elected to decide on club matters, but every single full member owns the club and has the same rights as every other member regarding "policing" the rules of the club.

blackwaterfish

The correct way to approach this was for the member to approach the OP's friend in a reasonable manner and inform him of the clubs rules during member competitions and say "carry on but be advised for next time". Particularily when it wasnt busy.

sadly, every club is populated to a large extent by personalities, who in situations such as this, have serious anger management issues. theyre out there, we all know them, but things will never change unless the club management themselves advise members to use discretion and an ounce of diplomacy when approaching valuable green fee paying punters - for whatever reason.

matt-dublin

Greebo, policing the rules falls under "club matters"

as redzah said if we lived in a vigalante state things would be completely different.

you've already contradicted your own arguement with the committe and club matters comment.

Every single full member only has an entitlement to a single vote at a general meeting to decide what path the club takes, not to enforce the rules.

Basically they can rat people out, the GM/Proshop should inform the captain/committee of breeches which should be dealt with by committee appropriatly.

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Greebo, you can't have everyone going around policing the place, thats what a committee are there for IMO not even you old timer have this right.

See above. No its not what the committee are for. They may hand out punishments for rule breaches but they are not club police. The caddymasters are typically employed to run comps and can stop you from playing as thats their job, but likewise so can any member if you are breaching the rules.

Redzah wrote: »

Say if McGinners rocks up to the grange during a break in the timesheet in the monthly medal and you and the other grumps are the next group teeing off 30 mins after he tees of. Are you going to enforce the law and let this rule breaker know that he's not allowed to play? Didn't think so!!!

So many issues with this example, but I'll feed you once more.
1) Paul McGinley is an honorary member of the club and as such has the right to play in club competitions.
2) It doesnt take 30 mins to play a hole. Why are you so slow Redzah? 9 hours even with all those gimmies?

Redzah wrote: »

I don't think the rules are above me but there are certain times where the rules can be bent when it just makes sense i.e. a huge gap in the timesheet.

Would these certain times be whenever it suits you?
True does not equal false my young friend, even for very true values of false.

Redzah wrote: »

My point on the fact that it is rarely a cat 1 golfer who trys to enforce some of this laws limiting juvenilles playing is because they know that it will only bring their game on getting out and playing when they can and as long as they are not getting in the way then it can only be positive for the future of the club and irish golf. You view is short sighted in this regard as all u care about is that it is technically in breach of the rules. A more knowledgeable and less selfish golfer can oversee this rules breach and determine its not harming anybody or anything as there is a big gap in the timesheet.

If you dont like the rules vote to change them. It obviously exists because the majority of members dont want people jumping into the middle of a timesheet when they are not playing the comp. It appears that its just you. Frankly, get over yourself.

Redzah wrote: »

Greebo, i'm a full member of my current club but would always support the development of juvenilles as I have been there and dealt with your kind previously. I know what it takes to reach a top level through my own experience and through watching colleagues and friends who have played at a higher level than me. I also have seen the barriers in place that prevent this development, and the attitude that you are demonstrating is one of the larger barriers any juvenille should expect to come across.

The rules are that no one can play during a comp. No one. Juvenile, Pro, Cat1, your granny. NO ONE.

To me its quite clear that you have some almighty chip on your shoulder and believe that the majority of the members in your club are just an inconvenience to you and your talented young friends.
Your handicap is irrelevant to everyone except you.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

You say reported to "the club" as if the club is some other entity that doesnt include the members.
In any normal members club, the members are the club. The GM runs the club as a business, the committee are elected to decide on club matters, but every single full member owns the club and has the same rights as every other member regarding "policing" the rules of the club.

Thats just not true Greebo, if a member has an issue he should bring it to the committee, you cannot go around taking the law into your own hands. The committee is elected by the members to run the club for the good of the members on their behalf, this includes policing the club. If I am double parked, do u take the law into your own hands and issue me a parking ticket? Why not because in your opinion you are a member of society who pays taxes (i hope) so your view suggests you have a right to this which is BS.

GreeBo

blackwaterfish wrote: »

The correct way to approach this was for the member to approach the OP's friend in a reasonable manner and inform him of the clubs rules during member competitions and say "carry on but be advised for next time". Particularily when it wasnt busy.

What exactly is the point in saying something and then ending with, "carry on"?
Whats the point in saying "be advised next time"? Wouldnt you just tell them to carry on again?

blackwaterfish wrote: »

sadly, every club is populated to a large extent by personalities, who in situations such as this, have serious anger management issues. theyre out there, we all know them, but things will never change unless the club management themselves advise members to use discretion and an ounce of diplomacy when approaching valuable green fee paying punters - for whatever reason.

There was no mention of anger by the OP?
So you think a non member should be allowed rock up and play the course in the middle of a competition? Would you like some randomer to pick up your ball in the middle of the captains prize?
But hey, he is potential money, just tell him to carry on but be advised!

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Thats just not true Greebo, if a member has an issue he should bring it to the committee, you cannot go around taking the law into your own hands. The committee is elected by the members to run the club for the good of the members on their behalf, this includes policing the club. If I am double parked, do u take the law into your own hands and issue me a parking ticket? Why not because in your opinion you are a member of society who pays taxes (i hope) so your view suggests you have a right to this which is BS.

A parking ticket is a penalty for breaking a law, I never mentioned a penalty, in fact I clearly stated that the committee would issue the penalties.
But anyone can tell someone that they are not allowed to park there, just as any member can tell someone the rules of the club and that they are breaking them.
Unfortunately anyone can be childish and ignore someone who is telling them something they dont want to hear. Next step is a tantrum, rolling across the tee box crying.;)

Again, failed you has your logic.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

See above. No its not what the committee are for. They may hand out punishments for rule breaches but they are not club police. The caddymasters are typically employed to run comps and can stop you from playing as thats their job, but likewise so can any member if you are breaching the rules.

Not point argueing on this one but listen, whatever Greebo, someday you'll come across the wrong person at the wrong time and this will stop you taking the law into your own hands.

So many issues with this example, but I'll feed you once more.
1) Paul McGinley is an honorary member of the club and as such has the right to play in club competitions. My point was that if McGinley does not enter the competition and takes advantage of a significant break in the timesheet. Would you call him up on it, doubt it and i'm sure he'd be asking inside who the grumpy old swine is if u did.

2) It doesnt take 30 mins to play a hole. Why are you so slow Redzah? 9 hours even with all those gimmies? Common sense should have been used on this point and that you would have seen him on another fairway close by to let him know your feeling on his outrageous :rolleyes: rule breach.


Would these certain times be whenever it suits you? These certain times would be times when the timesheet is empty during a competition, these could suit me or others.
True does not equal false my young friend, even for very true values of false.


If you dont like the rules vote to change them. It obviously exists because the majority of members dont want people jumping into the middle of a timesheet when they are not playing the comp. It appears that its just you. Frankly, get over yourself. Its not a problem at my current club so no need, i just empathise with those who have this problem as I have been there before and have had to deal with the likes of u running around like u own the place.


The rules are that no one can play during a comp. No one. Juvenile, Pro, Cat1, your granny. NO ONE. Yes but see my above example on McGinley, its obvious that you may lose you voice and anger if he does this outrageous act of playing with an hour gap in the comp timesheet :eek:

To me its quite clear that you have some almighty chip on your shoulder and believe that the majority of the members in your club are just an inconvenience to you and your talented young friends.
Your handicap is irrelevant to everyone except you. No I believe its you with the chip on those aging shoulders of yours, your type are a hinderence to the development of the club. My handicap can be quite relative to the club when it comes to picking interclub teams so I don't believe this last point to be true.

See above

matt-dublin

Greebo, when you were in school and you spotted someone else messing did you go over and give out to them when it annoyed you?

when you see someone illegally parking do you give out to them?

GreeBo

matt-dublin wrote: »

Greebo, when you were in school and you spotted someone else messing did you go over and give out to them when it annoyed you?

when you see someone illegally parking do you give out to them?

matt, did you ever post off-topic and get a warning from a mod?

matt-dublin

Greebo, its in context to the conversation.

Breaking club rules and taking direct action is the same as enforcing a law yourself in public.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

A parking ticket is a penalty for breaking a law, I never mentioned a penalty, in fact I clearly stated that the committee would issue the penalties.
But anyone can tell someone that they are not allowed to park there, just as any member can tell someone the rules of the club and that they are breaking them.
Unfortunately anyone can be childish and ignore someone who is telling them something they dont want to hear. Next step is a tantrum, rolling across the tee box crying.;)

Again, failed you has your logic. Your english has failed you here shakespeare or 'Failed you has your english'

So, are you the type of individual who tells somebody when they cannot park in a certain place, Greebo you're asking for trouble someday on or off the golf course as their are reasons that bodies have been established to enforce the rules whether is be in the public domain (Garda) or privite clubs (Committee)

JD Dublin

Dtoffee wrote: »

Competition time is for compeditors only, casual golf should not be allowed as they are changing the course by playing. Divots, bunkers, sand on greens, pitchmarks, footprints are all a result of playing the game and in a competition only entrants have the right to play the course.

Pay the Competition Fee and play your nine holes by all means BUT dont open a floodgate where every time theres a gap on the sheet you have casual golfers nipping out .......... not everyone rakes bunkers, repairs divots and obeys etiquette. By allowing casual golfers during competition time, you are opening a huge can of worms and all sorts of issues can arise. I dont agree with bullies shouting out rules at other members, but I would expect a quiet word with the competition secretary to ensure there is a clear decision regards who is entitled to play on the course during competition time.

For me, competition tee times are only for compeditiors and I dont care if theres a 20 minute gap .... I think the term is 'casual golfers have no standing on a golf course during competition time', you do not want to find yourself at a disadvantage due to the actions of casual golfers ahead of you.

Well said Dtoffee this makes sense, and I tend to agree with - all would be sorted if the players in question did not walk on to the course, but, as echoed by Loire in a later reply, asked in the pro shop if they could go out ( or not ).