Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

MungBean

jm08 wrote: »

are you serious rotation is necessary at club level and not at international level:rolleyes:

You dont rotate your players through an international competition you play your best squad to try and win the game. Any players who get game time for the sake of getting game time get it at the A level or during non competitive matches (including games against lesser opponents, Russia in world cup for example).

Roll your eyes all you want but look at the Irish starting 15 through the last number of competitive international matches and point of any rotation in the squad. You cant because there is none.

TomsOnTheRoof

Firstly let me just say this; Yes, Murray had a bad game on Saturday. He was slow and ponderous and cost us momentum at times. Now people are calling for his head, we have a more experienced option on the bench they say, better at the basics they say. May I remind everyone that it's not so long ago Sextoon was in the exact same position. Yet he was given the benefit of the doubt and persisted with. This bore fruit.

Secondly; Am I the only one who has noticed that this whole drop Murray thing seems to be a tad to provincial? I thought we had got past this ****e. The same guys advocating Murray being dropped are the very ones blind to the failings of guys like Heaslip and O' Brien. Heaslip has had one or two good games for us in the last two years. The rest of the time he has been dragging his arse like a lame donkey. For all of you guys saying he is doing more of the dirty work, if by this you mean making tackles, hitting rucks and slowing down the ball then I would say one thing to you... WAKE UP! That is his job, he is a backrow forward for Christ's sake. And can we please stop attributing O' Briens lack of form to his position or because "Kidney tells him to play like this" The guy is not playing well and hasn't exactly shone for Leinster in the way that he has last year. He needs to stop making runs off static ball and look for space. POC may be much derided on here for being a poor ball carrier but so far this championship he has out carried O' Brien.

Thank you for your time.

phog

Higher wrote: »

Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.

This is absolute rubbish.

siltirocker wrote: »

I'm pretty confident that Keatley and Murray haven't played with each other once yet.

Shocking (if that is the case) IMO.

Not true but even if it was then why would it be shocking, Keatley has nothing to do with the Irish team at the present moment. Cant even see why it was brought up in this thread.

GerM

Murray hasn't been poor for all his caps. He was quite good at first. He was a little green but passed sweetly, defended aggressively and had a bit of spark in his first 3 or 4 caps. Since his placement as first choice though, he has regressed. There's far more pressure on him and it's telling in his performances. He is over thinking his actions, checking his preferred option two or three times before acting as if he's fearful of it being the wrong one. I don't think he's going to be dropped but he's struggling right now. That's three games in a row where he has been noticeably poor. He just looks incredibly uncertain in his play.

Definitely has raw materials but at this stage, it's better for him to gain confidence and form elsewhere as it was for Fitz a year ago. Dither against Italy and it hinders your attack. Dither against France and they'll murder you. If he is taken out of the team, I've no doubt he'll be back, a better player and a deserved starter.

Hagz

MungBean wrote: »

You dont rotate your players through an international competition you play your best squad to try and win the game. Any players who get game time for the sake of getting game time get it at the A level or during non competitive matches (including games against lesser opponents, Russia in world cup for example).

Roll your eyes all you want but look at the Irish starting 15 through the last number of competitive international matches and point of any rotation in the squad. You cant because there is none.

I get what you're saying, but rotation can be used at international level and was used in 2009 when we won the Grand Slam. It serves many purposes such as squad building, boosting moral, it motivates and prevents predictability. I don't think there's much room for rotation for the French match, other than bringing in Ryan and Reddan which isn't so much rotation as starting the best players, but I do think it can be used in a game such as the Scottish one. My opinion of course.

MungBean

Hagz wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but rotation can be used at international level and was used in 2009 when we won the Grand Slam. It serves many purposes such as squad building, boosting moral, it motivates and prevents predictability. I don't think there's much room for rotation for the French match, other than bringing in Ryan and Reddan which isn't so much rotation as starting the best players, but I do think it can be used in a game such as the Scottish one. My opinion of course.

The Italy game was our only chance for rotating players. But we didnt do it because Kidney doesnt rotate. In a competitive competition you dont rotate your squad, just as Schmidt wont rotate in the Heineken cup finals, he'll pick the best team available to have every opportunity to win. He doesnt pick Boss to start crucial matches to give him game time he picks him because he's the best option for a particular match. Thats not rotation.

I dont understand how anyone could seriously say going into a competitive match against a team that wont be beaten easily that a player should start just to get game time when they are clearly not the best option.

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

How do you know Murray won't be a better option. sexton didn't look like a better option in his first 6Ns, and is only now begining to look confident at internatinoal level. reddan and boss are no spring chickens now and murray looks to be the only player to show international promise at the moment.

I watched the match at the weekend. How the hell else would I judge? Murray was god awful and Reddan was pretty good.

danthefan

And whatever about Murray, who there is some justification (however weak) for starting, if DOC starts ahead of Ryan again it will be up there with the worst selections Kidney has ever made.

jm08

MungBean wrote: »

You dont rotate your players through an international competition you play your best squad to try and win the game. Any players who get game time for the sake of getting game time get it at the A level or during non competitive matches (including games against lesser opponents, Russia in world cup for example).

Roll your eyes all you want but look at the Irish starting 15 through the last number of competitive international matches and point of any rotation in the squad. You cant because there is none.

so, you saying that Murray shouldn't be even in the squad?

so you'd have reddan & sexton playing 80 mins of rugby over the next 4 weeks then? what happens if either get injured. do you expect their replacements to be able to be internationally match fit not having played for 2 months

I'm sure Joe schmidt would be delighted to get the two of them back having played 5 x 80 internationals facing into a Heineken cup quarter final. surely you saw how tired Leinster were after their Heineken cup final last year when they played Munster in the magners league final and that was only one big match.

irishbucsfan

GerM wrote: »

Murray hasn't been poor for all his caps. He was quite good at first. He was a little green but passed sweetly, defended aggressively and had a bit of spark in his first 3 or 4 caps. Since his placement as first choice though, he has regressed. There's far more pressure on him and it's telling in his performances. He is over thinking his actions, checking his preferred option two or three times before acting as if he's fearful of it being the wrong one. I don't think he's going to be dropped but he's struggling right now. That's three games in a row where he has been noticeably poor. He just looks incredibly uncertain in his play.

Definitely has raw materials but at this stage, it's better for him to gain confidence and form elsewhere as it was for Fitz a year ago. Dither against Italy and it hinders your attack. Dither against France and they'll murder you. If he is taken out of the team, I've no doubt he'll be back, a better player and a deserved starter.

I disagree. Murray has had the same problems in every one of hos first caps. It was just overlooked because of how green he was.

He should never have been put in this position, it was terrible judgement. The evidence in favour of the Reddan/Sexton partnership is so incredibly strong that I think only those with alterior motives can overlook it.


The thing that annoys me is people thinking that the guy is going to sort out his game by playing more at international level. As if any player has ever improved in this situation That is not how to develop the guy, look at what has happened to Ben Youngs. He needs to go away and gain experience at H Cup level (where he has been just as glacial this season).

TomsOnTheRoof

danthefan wrote: »

I watched the match at the weekend. How the hell else would I judge? Murray was god awful and Reddan was pretty good.

So you are basing his future career in an Irish jersey on one match? Good move :rolleyes: If that were everyone's attitude then Sexton would not now be our No. 1 fly half.

Hagz

MungBean wrote: »

The Italy game was our only chance for rotating players. But we didnt do it because Kidney doesnt rotate. In a competitive competition you dont rotate your squad, just as Schmidt wont rotate in the Heineken cup finals, he'll pick the best team available to have every opportunity to win. He doesnt pick Boss to start crucial matches to give him game time he picks him because he's the best option for a particular match. Thats not rotation.

I dont understand how anyone could seriously say going into a competitive match against a team that wont be beaten easily that a player should start just to get game time when they are clearly not the best option.

Well Kidney has always rotated in the 6N so I don't know where you're getting this idea that you can't rotate in a competitive competition.

danthefan

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

So you are basing his future career in an Irish jersey on one match? Good move :rolleyes: If that were everyone's attitude then Sexton would not now be our No. 1 fly half.

What in the name of jebus are you on about?

Hagz wrote: »

Well Kidney has always rotated in the 6N so I don't know where you're getting this idea that you can't rotate in a competitive competition.

Not really. There was a small amount of rotation in 2009, otherwise nearly all changes have been reacting to injuries.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

I watched the match at the weekend. How the hell else would I judge? Murray was god awful and Reddan was pretty good.

well, no one is going to find out how good he can be if he is dropped the first time he doesn't play well. murray and sexton are the future, they need a bit of time to build up a relationship and murray needs to get used to playing with the ireland pack.

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

well, no one is going to find out how good he can be if he is dropped the first time he doesn't play well. murray and sexton are the future, they need a bit of time to build up a relationship and murray needs to get used to playing with the ireland pack.

As I said, that would have been my view if Murray had even put in a remotely competent performance, but unfortunately he did not. I would like Ireland to try win the game on Sunday if possible.

TomsOnTheRoof

jm08 wrote: »

well, no one is going to find out how good he can be if he is dropped the first time he doesn't play well. murray and sexton are the future, they need a bit of time to build up a relationship and murray needs to get used to playing with the ireland pack.

At last, a voice of reason. Fair play.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

I watched the match at the weekend. How the hell else would I judge? Murray was god awful and Reddan was pretty good.

well, no one is going to find out how good he can be if he is dropped the first time he doesn't play well. murray and sexton are the future, they need a bit of time to build up a relationship and murray needs to get used to playing with the ireland pack.

He had been consistently bad. It's just that we haven't been able to compare it with our best combination in any game until now*.

There have been those pointing out the flaws in his game for a while now. It has shown constantly, its just that people were eager to overlook it. Now people are starting to see Murray for the player he is and not what they wish he was. He could become the best scrum half in Europe, but the longer his flaws are overlooked the less likely that becomes.

*Well we have once, and that was when we beat Australia with Murray out of the team, only for him to be stupidly put back in.

MungBean

jm08 wrote: »

so, you saying that Murray shouldn't be even in the squad?

so you'd have reddan & sexton playing 80 mins of rugby over the next 4 weeks then? what happens if either get injured. do you expect their replacements to be able to be internationally match fit not having played for 2 months

So its either play the full 80 or dont play at all ? There are such things as substitutions you know. If there going to be rotation you rotate the bench and release players back to the provinces to get game time if they are not match fit. You dont start them in crucial matches to get their match fitness for god sake.

Personally I'd have Murray on the bench for Scotland and Italy and Reddan and Boss for all others.

I'm sure Joe schmidt would be delighted to get the two of them back having played 5 x 80 internationals facing into a Heineken cup quarter final. surely you saw how tired Leinster were after their Heineken cup final last year when they played Munster in the magners league final and that was only one big match.

How does he cope with Healy, Ross, Heaslip, SOB, Darcy, Kearney all starting every competitive match ? Ideally they would have had a break week next week where some could rest and others would get game time with the provinces. But due to the French game being cancelled thats out the window. The entire team cant be rotated, rotation isnt an option at this level against these teams if you want any chance of winning.

pickarooney

I think the core issue of Murray's ponderous decision making is that he actually has a decision to make. In many ways he's the complete opposite of Stringer, who while completely one-dimensional did perfect that one part of his game, although I always felt we were missing out by having no breaking power at 9.

I don't think Murray was that bad on Saturday. I saw a lot of positives in his game and I think Reddan's contribution is vastly overstated, coming as it did in the death throes of the game where, as any regular watcher of Irish rugby knows, he plays his best stuff. The same goes for Boss and I daresay if Murray was the one making the 20-minute cameos a lot of people would be calling for him to be included from the start for his physicality and his ability to make yards from the back of the ruck/scrum.

In any international game, bar the complete mismatches we see in the WC group stages, the first sixty minutes are the hardest - it can look like teams are not making any effort when in fact they're giving it their all and grinding their opponents down. It's easy too to say that the SH should be tossing out fast ball from the off but it only takes one interception to give away a soft try and that's one area of the game where Italy are decent. Murray took his time, the team took its time and we ran in five tries. O'Brien, Heaslip, even O'Callaghan were hammering away for over an hour to wear down the Italian pack and clear the way for the subs to come in and look like stars. Healy was having a torrid time of it in the first half but got a second wind when the opposition was out of puff. I wouldn't mark him down for that.

Against Scotland, I'd drop Murray and O'Brien to the bench purely so they could come on and have the luxury of playing their games against the Scots bench or their tired first-teamers but I would have no qualms with them being picked for Paris.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had been consistently bad. It's just that we haven't been able to compare it with our best combination in any game until now*.

There have been those pointing out the flaws in his game for a while now. It has shown constantly, its just that people were eager to overlook it. Now people are starting to see Murray for the player he is and not what they wish he was. He could become the best scrum half in Europe, but the longer his flaws are overlooked the less likely that becomes.

*Well we have once, and that was when we beat Australia with Murray out of the team, only for him to be stupidly put back in.

He hasn't been consistently bad. He came on against australia at 57 minutes (much the same time as reddan came on yesterday), and he actually made it across the whitewash for the try to be disallowed.

He had a good game against Italy in the world cup.

If you think Murray was bad against wales, Ireland would have been destroyed by wales with Mike Phillips at scrum half.

I don't see Ireland doing anyway better with reddan at scrumhalf with their big scrumhalf and their big backs. In fact, they wouldn't have been in sexton's face quicker as they wouldn't have to think about defending around the fringes.

Higher

jm08 wrote: »

the same could be said about sexton in that he has only a couple of good games in nearly 30 games, but everyone thinks he should be persisted with. murray also has a new backrow and sexton to build up a partnership with. think he has only played 2 or 3 games with sexton.

I think schmidt is getting it right with the way he rotates boss and reddan and in general, the one that starts usually looks the poorest for leinster as well.

Take a look at Sextons MOTM to match starts ratio. Hes had 18 starts for Ireland and has gotten MOTM 6 times. Basically hes Irelands best player in one in every three games hes started! Hes gotten MOTM awards against Fiji, South Africa, NZ Maori, Australia, England and Italy. In fact, of those 18 games the only bad games he could be said to have had were England, Scotland and Wales in the 2011 6N where his kicking was hampered due to a quad injury. I dont recall any other bad games unless you know of any?

danthefan

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't think Murray was that bad on Saturday. I saw a lot of positives in his game and I think Reddan's contribution is vastly overstated, coming as it did in the death throes of the game where, as any regular watcher of Irish rugby knows, he plays his best stuff. The same goes for Boss and I daresay if Murray was the one making the 20-minute cameos a lot of people would be calling for him to be included from the start for his physicality and his ability to make yards from the back of the ruck/scrum.

.

Death throes of the game!?

We had scored 3 points in the 2nd half to that point, 26 mins from the end of the match.

You're seriously reaching there.

Benny Cake

This is a storm in a teacup tbh... Statements like "Murray is the new TOL" are deliberately inflammatory & coming from the op I'm not one bit surprised. Anybody who posts/reads here regularly will know his history.

For what its worth, I think Reddan should start against France but I would like to see Murray back at the helm before the 6 nations is out. I sincerely believe himself & Sexton are our halfback pairing of the future. Kidney dropped Sexton for ROG when his form dipped & it most definitely hurt Sextons confidence. It has taken a while for him to recover & I just hope he doesn't make the same mistake with Murray.

nerd69

Higher wrote: »

Take a look at Sextons MOTM to match starts ratio. Hes had 18 starts for Ireland and has gotten MOTM 6 times. Basically hes Irelands best player in one in every three games hes started! Hes gotten MOTM awards against Fiji, South Africa, NZ Maori, Australia, England and Italy. In fact, of those 18 games the only bad games he could be said to have had were England, Scotland and Wales in the 2011 6N where his kicking was hampered due to a quad injury. I dont recall any other bad games unless you know of any?

there were a lot of people calling for rog to start but sexton got his chance because he is the younger player the same as murray

Higher

jm08 wrote: »

He hasn't been consistently bad. He came on against australia at 57 minutes (much the same time as reddan came on yesterday), and he actually made it across the whitewash for the try to be disallowed.

He had a good game against Italy in the world cup.

If you think Murray was bad against wales, Ireland would have been destroyed by wales with Mike Phillips at scrum half.

I don't see Ireland doing anyway better with reddan at scrumhalf with their big scrumhalf and their big backs. In fact, they wouldn't have been in sexton's face quicker as they wouldn't have to think about defending around the fringes.

When Murray came on against Australia he made a huge number of errors. Against Italy he was slow, caught in possession repeatedly and threw terrible passes. The less said about his 'performance' against Wales the better

Higher

nerd69 wrote: »

there were a lot of people calling for rog to start but sexton got his chance because he is the younger player the same as murray

Sexton got his chance because he was playing better than ROG

nerd69

Higher wrote: »

Sexton got his chance because he was playing better than ROG

no he wasent he had several horrible games far worse than murray had last weekend and rog was comeing on and saving games

Higher

Benny Cake wrote: »

This is a storm in a teacup tbh... Statements like "Murray is the new TOL" are deliberately inflammatory & coming from the op I'm not one bit surprised. Anybody who posts/reads here regularly will know his history.

Its not deliberately inflammatory its a valid point. The same arguments are being made for Murrays continued inclusion that used to be made for TOL i.e hes physical, he can make a break, hes like an extra backrower, we need him for defense. Its all a load of ****e.

I wont bother responding to the rest of your statement.

nerd69

Higher wrote: »

Its not deliberately inflammatory its a valid point. The same arguments are being made for Murrays continued inclusion that used to be made for TOL i.e hes physical, he can make a break, hes like an extra backrower, we need him for defense. Its all a load of ****e.

I wont bother responding to the rest of your statement.

but hes a far better passer and is younger

irishbucsfan

nerd69 wrote: »

Higher wrote: »

Sexton got his chance because he was playing better than ROG

no he wasent he had several horrible games far worse than murray had last weekend and rog was comeing on and saving games

When exactly has Sexton played horribly? He has kicked poorly, but his play has generally been superior.