Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Question for the Leinster lads campaigning for Reddan to start:

Do you believe that Reddan is the best option to play a physical game away in Paris, despite the fact that Reddan is rarely selected for physical away games at club level?

Even the infallable Schmidt appears to agree that a more physical SH is needed for such away games. Murray is the best physical SH in the country/squad, and should he not be selected in France in a horses-for-courses affair?

Personally, I'm not positive who I think should start. Reddan was much better against Italy and deserves the start but, despite Murray's poor showing, his physicality and defense will most likely be needed against the French. He was possibly our best defender against Wales and will likely be needed against the French too.

Boss is picked away from home because of how well he orchestrates the pack in a tight game. Not because of his physicality. This isn't something Murray offers either. Id be all for Boss starting with Reddan on the bench if that was our game plan. It isn't and so it won't happen.

Leinster7

Murray has a lot of potential, but his blooding in at a time when Reddan was in fine form, HC winner etc and playing regularly with Sexton was another Kidney mistake in a long line...

nerd69

rrpc wrote: »

But that's not what has happened, and yet again we have an immediate improvement when the magic combination has been struck. People talking about forwards upping their game and Italians tiring are missing the point (or listening too much to Kidneyspeak). Currently our best half back pairing is Sexton and Reddan. Murray may well be the future, but he needs to speed up 100% and stay at that speed for 100% of the time before he's ready to take over.

i disagree the tempo raised when pom and d ryan came on but pom shouldn't be starting in front of what we have the italians have tired out in every 6 nations game this year the same happened on sat. murray had a poor match but reddan didn't outplay him to the level people are claiming yes reddans passing is a bit better but murray is a lot bigger than him and when it come do defending that counts for a lot.

nerd69

Leinster7 wrote: »

Murray has a lot of potential, but his blooding in at a time when Reddan was in fine form, HC winner etc and playing regularly with Sexton was another Kidney mistake in a long line...

hc winner isn't an issue it should be on ability alone

ozymandias10

Kidney seems to be persisting with a few others who must be close to be being dropped..Heaslip, d'Arcy, O Callaghan..

Cpt_Blackbeard

BoardsMember wrote: »

There's your problem right there. This thread is about Murray, it's not a Leinster/Munster thread. One player is playing poorly, another is playing well when he gets in. It's quite simple, it has nothing whatsoever to do with where the players play their rugby.

My question has nothing to do with provincial rivalries. I was asking a question (which irishbucsfan fairly answered) about Reddan role in the Leinster setup. It was only obvious to direct the questiona at Leinster supporters.

shuffol

There are of course arguments for sticking with a young player who's having trouble adapting to international rugby but scrum half is too pivotal a position, a young winger can have a poor game and not impact on the rest of the team but Murrays indecisiveness at the breakdown is stifling our entire attacking game, we've serious gamebreakers in our backrow who can wreak havoc off quick ball.

As for selecting him for his physicality and defence, we coped fine for years with Stringer at SH, why should we go there and resign oursleves to the fact that we'll be defending for most the game, next people will be calling for Buckley to be selected for his ball carrying.

Dont accept the Boss/Reddan rotation for Leinster argument, for one Boss has much more nous around the fringes than Murray does at this stage in his development, also when Boss starts for Leinster they play a different game, when Murray starts for Ireland we play the same game as when Reddans there only slower.

nerd69

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Kidney seems to be persisting with a few others who must be close to be being dropped..Heaslip, d'Arcy, O Callaghan..

o callahan i agree with personally i disagree with heaslip but who would you start instead of darcy

cbyrne11

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Kidney seems to be persisting with a few others who must be close to be being dropped..Heaslip, d'Arcy, O Callaghan..

Agree with Heaslip (needs a kick up the arse) and O'Callaghan (Donnacha Ryan) but d'Arcy I thought played well at the weekend and given that O'Driscoll is out could do with that experience in Midfield, in the long run a few centre partnership has to be found though

BoardsMember

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

My question has nothing to do with provincial rivalries. I was asking a question (which irishbucsfan fairly answered) about Reddan role in the Leinster setup. It was only obvious to direct the questiona at Leinster supporters.

Sorry, I misread it. I think having read it quickly and then read the mod warning afterwards, I just got it messed up. Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive to the Munster v Leinster nonsense where Ireland is concerned, at the pub the other day two lads in their Munster jerseys shouting f off at Sexton the whole time, even once when someone else kicked to touch(think it was Earls), they only cheering when someone from Munster did something good etc. Just drives me mad, it's so pathetic.

corny

Everyone seems to preface every comment with he has potential. Well thats great but there are scores of players with the provinces who have potential but none of them are learning on the job with the national team. I mean we're talking about a lad who made his Heineken debut a couple of months ago. Every other player has to literally kick Kidneys door to earn a place on the team but an average player (at the minute) playing less than average rugby is suddenly fast tracked to the top. I've seen nothing of Murray to vindicate Kidney in any way and i think its scandalous he's keeping Reddan out of the side. I wouldn't have him on the bench truth be told.

smurphy29

Personally I like and rate Murray, but he hs a problem at the moment. I've a deeling Munster are instructing him to carry the ball a fair bit, as they lack carriers in their pack with Wally out (POM, great and all as he is, is not really a carrier, and nor is Ronan). I thought he'd be told to just pass it for Ireland, but his Munster game seems to have affected him a bit. He's looking hesitant and making poor decisions. When he first came into the team his game was very fluid and uncomplicated.

I think it's a bit of second season syndrome - there's a lot of hysteria on this thread (hey! What's new?). It's a tough call to drop a young player after a couple of poor games, and his style might just suit the France game. I might just - just! - stick rather than twist, on balance.

nerd69

BoardsMember wrote: »

Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive to the Munster v Leinster nonsense where Ireland is concerned, at the pub the other day two lads in their Munster jerseys shouting f off at Sexton the whole time, even once when someone else kicked to touch(think it was Earls), they only cheering when someone from Munster did something good etc. Just drives me mad, it's so pathetic.

i agree really annoys me i have a buddy from leinester who's living down here now and we went to the pub to watch a munster leinester match about a year ago wearing our respective Jerseys now from the minute he got in to wen we left later that night he was getting bad looks but when leinester won (last min bod try) he went to get a pint and a fella actually threatened him a bit childish but ive seen it carry over onto boards on both sides your right to be proud of your province but dont let it make you blind to situations.

ozymandias10

nerd69 wrote: »

o callahan i agree with personally i disagree with heaslip but who would you start instead of darcy

D'arcy seems tom have a monopoly here...he is difficult to replace but that doesn't deflect from the fact he is slowing the ball going out..he played well against Italy but every game makes at least one mistake that is costly in terms of opposition line breaks. the issue is for Kidney ..does he think he can play both sexton and O gara and move sexton to 12 (ala farrell for england) or does he opt for Downey of Northampton or even move trimble in there. I just think Kidney needs to look at it now to find the answer as D'arcy is not the player he was.

Heaslip needs to get a kick up the arse..I would change him as O Brien is really being played out of Position and I would move him to 6 ferris to eight and Peter O Mahony to 7...I think Heaslip would come back better if this happened as there is no disputing his ability

shuffol

Of course Reddans not somebody who's inclusion you want to be championing too much either, there's always the risk of looking very silly and having your credibility downgraded to junk status, a brainfart is never far away. In the space of about 3 starts for Ireland last season he threw 2 interception passes. I do think his pros outweigh his cons at this stage though.

ozymandias10

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Heaslip needs to get a kick up the arse..I would change him as O Brien is really being played out of Position and I would move him to 6 ferris to eight and Peter O Mahony to 7...I think Heaslip would come back better if this happened as there is no disputing his ability

so you'd move Ferris out of the position he's played all season,
followed by moving SOB out of the position he's played all season,
and also move POM out of the position he's played all season?

:baffling:

Spudmonkey

As a Munster supporter I'd rather give Murray a couple more seasons to develop his game with the province than destroying his confidence in the Irish setup.

There is no denying it, the difference Reddan made on Saturday was obvious and its clear that both he and Sexton are used to playing together. Also Murray looked pure dejected on the bench as Trimble went in for his try. He knew himself that he hadn't played well

Having seen Murray play a stormer last year in Musgrave, I have very high hopes for him. His passing was sharp and he had a couple of nice chips behind the defense. All in all he looked an exciting propect so he may well be the next Irish SH, he probably just needs a little more time.

fitz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

My question has nothing to do with provincial rivalries. I was asking a question (which irishbucsfan fairly answered) about Reddan role in the Leinster setup. It was only obvious to direct the questiona at Leinster supporters.

Boss is picked for the tighter, pack driven games, Reddan for the quick expansive play. That's not to say Reddan isn't up to the physical challenge of the French.

We should be picking the team that allows us to play our game as effectively as possible. Reddan and Sexton should start, and should be allowed to play a flat, fast game based of the forwards winning the battle up front. We should not be relying on our scrum-half for that battle. If we have to, we're goosed anyway.

ozymandias10

Deleted User wrote: »

so you'd move Ferris out of the position he's played all season,
followed by moving SOB out of the position he's played all season,
and also move POM out of the position he's played all season?

:baffling:

Heaslip and O brien aren't performing one needs to go..O Brien should be given a chance in his preferred position...when you say all season is this the two games we have played in the six nations...cause I am basing on current form..and specifically for this tournamnet ..the six nations....not baffling at all

But hey if you would rather continue with a non functioning back row that is your perogative

nerd69

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Heaslip and O brien aren't performing one needs to go..O Brien should be given a chance in his preferred position...when you say all season is this the two games we have played in the six nations...cause I am basing on current form..and specifically for this tournamnet ..the six nations....not baffling at all

But hey if you would rather continue with a non functioning back row that is your perogative

i think non functioning is a bit harsh i think there playing pretty well

ozymandias10

nerd69 wrote: »

i think non functioning is a bit harsh i think there playing pretty well

I think ferris is playing well....others are below what we expect from them...I accept that Non Functioning is a bit ott

BoardsMember

I'd love to see SOB at 8, and someone, maybe POM at 7 at some stage.

I'd also like to see Heaslip return to form, with Ferris in second row, that would give us some serious weapons, but I dont think it will ever happen.

The really noticeable thing, for me, regarding Reddan, is that our ball carriers commit to taking flat passes at pace on the gainline, whereas with Murray the runs just dont happen because either he doesnt pass it, or they have no idea when he's going to get around to passing it. This business of standing at the back of the ruck looking around for ages is a nonsense and needs to be eliminited.

ozymandias10

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Heaslip and O brien aren't performing one needs to go..O Brien should be given a chance in his preferred position...when you say all season is this the two games we have played in the six nations...cause I am basing on current form..and specifically for this tournamnet ..the six nations....not baffling at all

But hey if you would rather continue with a non functioning back row that is your perogative

Your idea is equivalent to using a blowtorch to close a cut instead of a plaster.

d-gal

Being honest anyone would have sped up the game after the 50th minute. It was a good call by Kidney, play a physical scrum half against the most physical 6nations team and then speed it up in the 2nd half and blow them away, which Ireland did. Stringer would have been god like if he came on after 50minutes, the speed of play increased 100% and Italy couldn't handle that.
Reddan is a better scrumhalf but he shouldn't start against France, too physical a game. Schimdt wouldn't pick him for this game so kidney def won't. I'd do the same as the Italy match, 50 for Murray and 30 for reddan. Horses for courses.
Murray is the future and being honest we should be blooding players now so Murray, sexton, POM, Ryan, mcfadden should all be getting gametime

corny

BoardsMember wrote: »

I'd love to see SOB at 8

Genuine question. Why?

IMO our entire back row are under utilised. They all basically do the same thing for Kidney. Stand close to the ruck and take it up against the strong fringe defence. The numbers they wear makes very little difference in attacking situations as far as i can see. The obvious off the back of scrum for the No.8 makes sense but our scrum rarely dominates to the extent where this is possible and if your scrum is going backwards Heaslip is one of the best there is at 8.

MungBean

d-gal wrote: »

Being honest anyone would have sped up the game after the 50th minute. It was a good call by Kidney, play a physical scrum half against the most physical 6nations team and then speed it up in the 2nd half and blow them away, which Ireland did. Stringer would have been god like if he came on after 50minutes, the speed of play increased 100% and Italy couldn't handle that.

Murray didnt speed it up after 40-45 so I dont see any reason to assume Reddan played no part.

Reddan is a better scrumhalf but he shouldn't start against France, too physical a game. Schimdt wouldn't pick him for this game so kidney def won't

I'd wager that if Schmidt had to choose between Murray and Reddan he'd go with Reddan. If he was choosing between Reddan/Murray and Boss then Murray wouldnt make the bench.

. I'd do the same as the Italy match, 50 for Murray and 30 for reddan. Horses for courses.
Murray is the future and being honest we should be blooding players now so Murray, sexton, POM, Ryan, mcfadden should all be getting gametime.

They are getting time, they got their 20 minutes against Italy and will do again against Scotland I'd say. Thats the way it should be done (bar Ryan who's clearly passed DOC a long time ago) not giving them a start and hoping for the best. If Murray starts in Paris we know we are resigned to defending for 50/60 minutes. Murray's a good defender but this is France in Paris, no team on the planet could defend for 50-60 minutes and hope to come away with a win.

Our only chance is to catch them on the hop and put them on the back foot and try create space out wide for Bowe, Trimble and Kearney to attack at pace.

Mr.Applepie

Deleted User wrote: »

so you'd move Ferris out of the position he's played all season,
followed by moving SOB out of the position he's played all season,
and also move POM out of the position he's played all season?

:baffling:

It's only baffling if you are unaware of the creamy, blind manlove some supporters have for blindside flankers in this country

Problem:
The backrow is unbalanced


MORE BLINDSIDE FLANKERS

Problem:
Our centres are too small


MORE BLINDSIDE FLANKERS

Problem:
The 2nd row isn't giving enough ball carrying options


MORE BLINDSIDE FLANKERS

Personally I can't wait for the discussion about moving SOB to 9 for his sniping ability!

BoardsMember

corny wrote: »

Genuine question. Why?

A few reasons - I think SOB is wasted at 7, it's just not his position at all. Ferris cant play any other backrow position afaik, and I have seen SOB play really well there for Leinster. It also means Heaslip being off the team which might give him the kick up the arse, and it would make space for someone who can actually play the 7 position, or at least try out some other options, POM being one such option.

I completely agree with your point about us having effectively 3 very similar players, particularly SOB & Ferris, and all three doing very similar things.

nerd69

MungBean wrote: »

Murray didnt speed it up after 40-45 so I dont see any reason to assume Reddan played no part.



I'd wager that if Schmidt had to choose between Murray and Reddan he'd go with Reddan. If he was choosing between Reddan/Murray and Boss then Murray wouldnt make the bench.



They are getting time, they got their 20 minutes against Italy and will do again against Scotland I'd say. Thats the way it should be done (bar Ryan who's clearly passed DOC a long time ago) not giving them a start and hoping for the best. If Murray starts in Paris we know we are resigned to defending for 50/60 minutes. Murray's a good defender but this is France in Paris, no team on the planet could defend for 50-60 minutes and hope to come away with a win.

Our only chance is to catch them on the hop and put them on the back foot and try create space out wide for Bowe, Trimble and Kearney to attack at pace.

1. every team that italy played have pulled away aound 60 mins fresh legs at 60 and a player thats played 40-50 mins are very different thats why benches are so important

2. murray adds another player france have to keep an eye on reddan docent make close to as many breaks this is why peter stringer is not longer relevant

3. i dont think we can go all out attack against france like that in loose play were good but there second only to nz they will destroy us

WeleaseWoderick

I'd love to know where this thing of Heaslip needing a kick up the ass to play better comes from?

In my opinion, he was out best player against Wales and was alongside POC & Ferris as our standout forward this week.

It reminds me of when people were saying Kearney had a bad game after every match a couple of years back, no matter how well he played.

As regards Conor Murray, I've no doubt he'll be a good player for Ireland in the future but at present he is not doing the fundamentals of a scrum half's job well enough to be first choice.