Shaggy as a pundit

nerd69

WeeBushy wrote: »

Well not really, there are no Irish players at Quins so O'Shea's vested interest in his own players doesn't come into it. Hook doesn't stand to make money out of Connacht players doing well so by definition doesn't have a vested interest.

ya fair point was commenting on 2 threads and went on a bit of a rant on both

i think shaggy did a grand job tbh cant really fault him on anything he said

buck65

Sheehan represents Wallace, I know from experience - I tried to hire Wallace thru Sheehan to do a corporate gig and the price was astounding!
He even had the cheek to tell me it was a special price for a local business and Munster supporter.
I literally gave half the money away instead.

overthenest

shaggy is a class pundit a great addition and really speak the game.

on another matter, does anyone know where the man who won the world cup, stephen donald, has gone? i thought he was with bath, ive only seen prem highlights but ive never seem him with bath?
also is jeremy manning still with the falcons?
cheers

WeeBushy

overthenest wrote: »

shaggy is a class pundit a great addition and really speak the game.

on another matter, does anyone know where the man who won the world cup, stephen donald, has gone? i thought he was with bath, ive only seen prem highlights but ive never seem him with bath?
also is jeremy manning still with the falcons?
cheers

Yup, Donald is still at Bath and Manning is still at Newcastle.

CIARAN_BOYLE

WeeBushy wrote: »

What Sheahan does, and the players he represents:

http://frontrow.ie/page.asp?id=40

It doesn't say which services individual players avail of, however.

interesting to note that every Leinster player he represents has left the province

nerd69

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

interesting to note that every Leinster player he represents has left the province

ahhhhhh stop with your conspiracy theories leinester have a good team at the moment so people are going elsewhere for gametime

ciarriaithuaidh

Shaggy is quite good is a good addition to the panel. He is easier on the ear and has less of an agenda than Frankie anyway, although he is still not going to be heard criticising anyone too much as some of them are close friends/team-mates.
If Hook and Shaggy remain on the same panel for an extended period there is bound to be a blow-up at some stage...you could see the disgust on Shane's face at stages during Saturdays coverage!

nerd69

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Shaggy is quite good is a good addition to the panel. He is easier on the ear and has less of an agenda than Frankie anyway, although he is still not going to be heard criticising anyone too much as some of them are close friends/team-mates.
If Hook and Shaggy remain on the same panel for an extended period there is bound to be a blow-up at some stage...you could see the disgust on Shane's face at stages during Saturdays coverage!

i reckon there already was one did you notice at the end hook was very very quiet

overthenest

WeeBushy wrote: »

Yup, Donald is still at Bath and Manning is still at Newcastle.

so neither are getting playing or are they injured?

CIARAN_BOYLE

overthenest wrote: »

so neither are getting playing or are they injured?

11 games this season for Donald injured at the moment
http://www.bathrugby.com/team/first-fifteen-squad/stephen-donald
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/sport/national-sport/6450691/Injury-gives-Stephen-Donald-chance-for-a-break

13 games this season for Manning most recently last weekend where he got 80 minutes against Leicster
http://www.newcastlefalcons.co.uk/player/jeremy-manning

the_blackstuff

Has anybody listening to him on news talk this evening. If didn't come across very will in my opinion. He and understandably is to loyal to leinster players but if your going to be a pundit you have to be objective. I felt he got is arse kicked by Keith wood. Im a munster fan but i won't tell you to play a over b just because a is from munster. Shaggy wasn't willing to criticise where it was necessary! I really think Heaslip needs the the finger out but shaggy didn't agree!

MungBean

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Has anybody listening to him on news talk this evening. If didn't come across very will in my opinion. He and understandably is to loyal to leinster players but if your going to be a pundit you have to be objective. I felt he got is arse kicked by Keith wood. Im a munster fan but i won't tell you to play a over b just because a is from munster. Shaggy wasn't willing to criticise where it was necessary! I really think Heaslip needs the the finger out but shaggy didn't agree!

Hate to break it to ya but I dont think the fact that he disagrees with you means he's being biased.

HappyBalance

Shaggy looks really uncomfortable on screen. His facial expressions are very off putting. Heard him on newstalk tonight and was excellent.

the_blackstuff

MungBean wrote: »

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Has anybody listening to him on news talk this evening. If didn't come across very will in my opinion. He and understandably is to loyal to leinster players but if your going to be a pundit you have to be objective. I felt he got is arse kicked by Keith wood. Im a munster fan but i won't tell you to play a over b just because a is from munster. Shaggy wasn't willing to criticise where it was necessary! I really think Heaslip needs the the finger out but shaggy didn't agree!

Hate to break it to ya but I dont think the fact that he disagrees with you means he's being biased.

Listen to the pod cast please and then come back to be. Im not the one being paid to give my unbiased opinion. Im a big fan of Horgan and have cheered for him in a green jersey many days and probably a blue if Im honest to. I just don't agree with some of his opinions and i question what's behind them. I really think if Wallace had been fit for the world cup Heaslip would have been on the bench and so do a lot more. He's not doing it for Ireland. Maybe its tactic that's causing it but surely a guy as experienced as shaggy can see that. He's to close to the leinster squad to be objective. Id also turn the sound down rather than listen to frankie as well

boneheaded

was he taking part in the shave or DYE fund raiser............

durkadurka

I can't think of any credible commentator who has ever suggested heaslip be dropped in the last few years.

So shaggy is not exactly being biased here.

MungBean

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Listen to the pod cast please and then come back to be. Im not the one being paid to give my unbiased opinion. Im a big fan of Horgan and have cheered for him in a green jersey many days and probably a blue if Im honest to. I just don't agree with some of his opinions and i question what's behind them. I really think if Wallace had been fit for the world cup Heaslip would have been on the bench and so do a lot more. He's not doing it for Ireland. Maybe its tactic that's causing it but surely a guy as experienced as shaggy can see that. He's to close to the leinster squad to be objective. Id also turn the sound down rather than listen to frankie as well

I disagree strongly, firstly off if Wally was fit its likely he or SOB would have been benched. Secondly I think he is doing for Ireland and doing it quite well. Its easy to say he's been quiet when he's not carrying same as you can say about Ferris and SOB. But all of them are still performing.

Theres a thread on Heaslip, have a read through it. I think most of the criticism in unfair and unfounded. Perhaps Horgan is giving his unbiased opinion but you cant accept it, its never as simple as a few people disagree so therefore he must be wrong and biased. I'll have a listen to the podcast.

jm08

durkadurka wrote: »

I can't think of any credible commentator who has ever suggested heaslip be dropped in the last few years.

So shaggy is not exactly being biased here.

Listen to the debate here.

Monday. Part 2. http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/22/monday/1/popup

MungBean

Just listened to the podcast and I dont think he came across as biased at all. He was of the opinion that POM offers nothing that SOB does given that he's not an "out and out 7" and similar to SOB being a 6/8 who can play 7. So was a bit taken aback by Wood talking about starting him against France.

Woods opinion was that he wants to see how POM gets on because he thinks he's shaped better to play 7. I like Wood but he's delusional if he wants to drop Heaslip in Paris to have a look at POM.

Horgan gave some really good detailed analysis there, talking about pods, trailers, the different options and what not available to the half backs. He went into great detail about Murrays rise to fame and possible reasons why he's not impressing currently, also standing up for him and downplaying Reddans contribution. To me he actually showed Wood up a bit with the detail he went into.

jm08

MungBean wrote: »

Just listened to the podcast and I dont think he came across as biased at all. He was of the opinion that POM offers nothing that SOB does given that he's not an "out and out 7" and similar to SOB being a 6/8 who can play 7. So was a bit taken aback by Wood talking about starting him against France.

Woods opinion was that he wants to see how POM gets on because he thinks he's shaped better to play 7. I like Wood but he's delusional if he wants to drop Heaslip in Paris to have a look at POM.

Horgan gave some really good detailed analysis there, talking about pods, trailers, the different options and what not available to the half backs. He went into great detail about Murrays rise to fame and possible reasons why he's not impressing currently, also standing up for him and downplaying Reddans contribution. To me he actually showed Wood up a bit with the detail he went into.

Horgan backtracked on what he said about Murray on the rte panel yesterday (probably watched the game again). He said the backrow were a bit slow clearing out rucks in the first half which contributed to murray's poor performance.

woods just didn't think that sean o'brien is half the player he was last year when playing 6 or 8 and he wanted to see that player again. He thought that omahoney, ryan and cronin coming on made as much an impact as reddan. don't think woody wanted to particularly drop heislip, he just wanted obrien to be playing in a position that brings out his best attributes and try omahoney to see if he would add better balance to the backrow.

touts

I think the problem Shaggy has is in a few weeks he will be back training and playing with the Leinster guys. Therefore on one side he knows he has to be fair and unbiased if he wants a career in being a Pundit. But on the other hand these are his friends and workmates and his gut instinct is to defend them. You hear him very often referring to the Leinster guys by their first names but the Munster players by their full name or second name. Most pundits use the full or second name to avoid the impression that these are their friends.

He staunchly defended "Jamie's" place in the team by somehow trying to make it about Sean O'Brien ("The most annoying player I've ever played against") being dropped which was never the issue. O'Mahoney isn't going to get in ahead of "Sean" but dropping "Jamie" and switching "Sean" to the other side was the suggestion and he refused to even consider or debate that. I thought he was very harsh on Murray but ignored the weaknesses of "Eoin". They both have flaws but his analysis was seriously un-balanced. He may have backtracked a bit from the TV analysis and put some of the blame on the pack but he was still over harsh on Murray.

Finally I didn't like the way he tried to stir the sh1t in Munster by claiming that McGahan got the bullet because Foley was now ready to take the job. And also his idea that O'Gara should hang up his boots and take over as the Munster backs coach. Where the hell did that one come from? He's just using his position as a pundit to create division and trouble in a potential rival later in the HEC and League. Wood was clearly furious and frustrated at him at that point in the interview.

I think he needs to be either a player or a pundit but not both. I look forward to seeing him as a long term fixture on RTE panels after he retires and especially once his friends stop playing. Then his analysis will be great (he's good when it comes to discussing non Irish/Lenister games). He's a hell of a lot better than Frankie (or Quinnie/Jackman/Costello on Against the head). But in the meantime I think RTE/Newstalk need to treat him as slightly radioactive.

rrpc

touts wrote: »

He staunchly defended "Jamie's" place in the team by somehow trying to make it about Sean O'Brien ("The most annoying player I've ever played against") being dropped which was never the issue. O'Mahoney isn't going to get in ahead of "Sean" but dropping "Jamie" and switching "Sean" to the other side was the suggestion and he refused to even consider or debate that. I thought he was very harsh on Murray but ignored the weaknesses of "Eoin". They both have flaws but his analysis was seriously un-balanced. He may have backtracked a bit from the TV analysis and put some of the blame on the pack but he was still over harsh on Murray.

Don't think he was over-harsh on Murray. Tempered his criticism a little from when he was on telly, but realistically Murray needs to spend some Munster time playing with Keatley to develop his tempo to the point where he can actually play with Sexton and not be giving him ball he can only kick away.

This backrow nonsense is purely a George Hook invention and people have taken it up as if it was gospel. Quick ball made all the difference with the back row and Heaslip has been playing a 'seven' role (a pretty outdated concept with the new rules imo) turning over ball and doing the grunt work so Ferris and SOB can do the carrying. None of them are going to be effective when they're stuck in a ruck trying to protect a ball that should have been with the backs a year ago.

bamboozle

the_blackstuff wrote: »

Listen to the pod cast please and then come back to be. Im not the one being paid to give my unbiased opinion. Im a big fan of Horgan and have cheered for him in a green jersey many days and probably a blue if Im honest to. I just don't agree with some of his opinions and i question what's behind them. I really think if Wallace had been fit for the world cup Heaslip would have been on the bench and so do a lot more. He's not doing it for Ireland. Maybe its tactic that's causing it but surely a guy as experienced as shaggy can see that. He's to close to the leinster squad to be objective. Id also turn the sound down rather than listen to frankie as well

i listened to this podcast, Shaggy was spot on, he was trying to make the valid point that the back row we have means certain aspects to Ferris's, heaslip & SOB's games have been tempered to the greater benefit to the team's tactics.

irishbucsfan

If anyone should be considered at 7 it should be Chris Henry. Someone who has excelled there in the heineken cup and consistently been one of his teams best players against top class opposition. He also covers all positions in the back row. He should probably be on the bench, but he plays for the wrong province it seems.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If anyone should be considered at 7 it should be Chris Henry. Someone who has excelled there in the heineken cup and consistently been one of his teams best players against top class opposition. He also covers all positions in the back row. He should probably be on the bench, but he plays for the wrong province it seems.

Indeed. It seems you only pick an Ulster player when you have absolutely no other choice.

Allegedly

totallegend

rrpc wrote: »

This backrow nonsense is purely a George Hook invention and people have taken it up as if it was gospel. Quick ball made all the difference with the back row and Heaslip has been playing a 'seven' role (a pretty outdated concept with the new rules imo) turning over ball and doing the grunt work so Ferris and SOB can do the carrying. None of them are going to be effective when they're stuck in a ruck trying to protect a ball that should have been with the backs a year ago.

Correct. People are giving out that Heaslip isn't carrying enough but he's in there making the steals, slowing opposition ball etc; what do people want an openside to do exactly? A year ago, all the chatter was that Rob Kearney was not an attacking full back, couldn't break the line and all he could do was catch and kick. Suspicously close to the opinions of G Hook.
Now that Kearney is tearing it up, this is all suddenly forgotten. Hook was asked a direct question about Kearney's performance by McGurk on Saturday and refused to answer it rather than admit he was wrong. Now Hook's like a dog with a bone about this 'openside' issue and I confidently predict he'll be proved wrong again over time.

Anyway, back to Horgan. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of his opinion, it was great listening to the debate on Newstalk last night because that's what it was, a debate. Horgan would make a point, Woody would contradict it but back it up with rational arguments, Horgan would give his opinion and that's what pundit are supposed to do.
A refreshing change from "Pundit A gives his opinion, host jumps in with totally unrelated question to pundit B before pundit A has finished speaking, then jumps to pundit C five seconds before going to an ad break".
It was what panel discussions should be like and it was greatly helped by Eoin McDevitt keeping quiet and letting the experts talk; McGurk, take note.

I think it's difficult to argue that Horgan's opinions aren't coloured by his Leinster association, but he is no worse than Wood with his constant Munster cheerleading (and he retired in 2003).
It's the same for all of them; Sheahan, Quinlan, Dempsey; it's a challenge for the radio and tv stations to find lads who are going to be impartial but also relevant to the audience.
If RTE were to wheel out Hooky and Popey for the first time now, there'd be pandemonium on boards.ie with lads demanding to know who these jokers are, how are they qualified etc etc and the casual rugby fans (still the vast bulk of the audience) would be more likely to switch to BBC.

I think Emmet Byrne is very balanced, but he's in a minority there.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If anyone should be considered at 7 it should be Chris Henry. Someone who has excelled there in the heineken cup and consistently been one of his teams best players against top class opposition. He also covers all positions in the back row. He should probably be on the bench, but he plays for the wrong province it seems.

Indeed. It seems you only pick an Ulster player when you have absolutely no other choice.

Allegedly

I probably phrased that wrong. I don't think it gas to do anything with who he plays for, rather more to do with who other people play for.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If anyone should be considered at 7 it should be Chris Henry. Someone who has excelled there in the heineken cup and consistently been one of his teams best players against top class opposition. He also covers all positions in the back row. He should probably be on the bench, but he plays for the wrong province it seems.

chris henry captained the wolfhounds in their loss against england at the end of january. think the only standout players was kearney junior in that match.

ciarriaithuaidh

We do have a problem with the balance of the backrow i think..we just don't have a natural 7 that is up to it. IMO though (and I'm from Munster as the name indicates) Heaslip was better than many are saying last Sat...and has been generally outstanding for Ireland since 2008. Ok, so Parisse bumped him off the last day once or twice..Parisse is the best 8 in the world to me, so wouldn't be too harsh. Seán O'Brien, good as he is, wouldn't have half the smarts or skill Heaslip has at 8. If Wallace is still the same old Wally when he returns (and he was as sharp as ever last season) then he would start in my team, but right now it would be SOB making way...just my 2 cents.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If anyone should be considered at 7 it should be Chris Henry. Someone who has excelled there in the heineken cup and consistently been one of his teams best players against top class opposition. He also covers all positions in the back row. He should probably be on the bench, but he plays for the wrong province it seems.

chris henry captained the wolfhounds in their loss against england at the end of january. think the only standout players was kearney junior in that match.

And POM didn't even make the team (which I disagreed with)