Power Meter - Powertap or wait for Garmin Vector?

Fazz

I recently rented a CompuTrainer for 3 months and enjoyed training with power a lot.
I also do the Power Turbo classes at Base2Race and find these excellent.

So I like training with power, and had set aside a budget for the Garmin Vector in the hope that it would be out and also accurate/have updated in time for races to be useable (insert Tunney remark here )
Vector being delayed recently I'm now thinking again about Powertap.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a TT bike that came with a very decent Crank and am reluctant to change this, for this reason Quarq and SRM are out for me. Power2Max also out.

This narrows my options to the Garmin Vector, Polar Pedals or Powertap.
Now obviously Powertap is proven, and seems reliable etc.
Catch being you chose what wheel to have it fitted and so unless buying a race and training version you have to decide.
I'm happy to continue the Power Turbo classes for Key session each week so in that sense that box is ticked. Be nice to have Power for other sessions but perhaps not key. Races I'd like to have power.

So I'm just wondering has anyone any advice/opinion based on experience of what is best for me?
Seems Powertap is likely fitted to race wheels.
Option to get built into existing 808 but after carriage it wouldn't work out too much different to getting new one and selling existing 808.

Or do I wait until Garmin Vector is out and hope there is no underlying issue that prevents it from ever being as accurate/reliable as Powertap?
Also release date is likely to me when.. July? August who knows...

It's not a priority for this season's races, more a want and I had it in mind as next purchase.
Vector seemed to tick most practical options, but still a question over reliability/accuracy obviously as it isn't even out.
Would I regret waiting if it's not accurate once out - yes.
Would I regret not waiting if it's out in June and accurate - probably yes.
So I'm confuzzled.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
Seems some on here have gone the Power2max route and enjoy this.
Curious as to whether each session is power based as a result or mainly the 1 key session anyway?

BTH

Haven't a clue but might be interested in the 808 if the price is right, and I get permission

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I would not be buying the Vector until its been out for a while and its reliance and accuracy is proven. Garmin are known to have issues with new kit and i am still not sold on it personally.
I know you say you are happy with the cranks you have but its great to be able to change a crank based system from bike to bike and it only takes 5 minutes. Sort of restricted to either having your PT fitted onto a training wheel which is good for training but not racing and vice versa with a race wheel.

Fazz

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Haven't a clue but might be interested in the 808 if the price is right, and I get permission

I'll give you first dibs if I proceed so.
You need permission to get faster now do you?
It's a wonder she lets you train at all so :pac:

Fazz

Lea Whining Nitroglycerine wrote: »

I would not be buying the Vector until its been out for a while and its reliance and accuracy is proven. Garmin are known to have issues with new kit and i am still not sold on it personally.
I know you say you are happy with the cranks you have but its great to be able to change a crank based system from bike to bike and it only takes 5 minutes. Sort of restricted to either having your PT fitted onto a training wheel which is good for training but not racing and vice versa with a race wheel.

Yeah I hear ya...
Just the crank is decent (Zipp) and feels good so I'd prefer to keep it.

Also the fact that really at present it's just 1-2 sessions a week that are power based as the rest are recovery/long easy/hill reps etc so fine to go off hr.
In this sense the power turbo classes tick the training box so the powertap on training wheel is less of a concern.
But still a nice to have no doubt about it.

May look at Quarq but think it was silly money, all be it less than SRM.

Powertap seems reasonable by comparison, just the one wheel slight impracticality.

dquirke1

I had a powertap 808 built up last year and have no problems with it so far.
I use it for key training sessions, on the turbo and for racing and its got about 3000km on it by now.
Will probably pick up a powertap training wheel before next winter but I'm sure the zipp would hold up fine if needs be.

I've heard plenty of people saying that powertap wheels are impossible to keep true, and need to be rebuilt every couple of months, but I'm around 80kg on a 20 spoke rear wheel and it hasn't missed a beat since I got it.

The garmin vector definatly looks interesting but I'd give it a year at least, to let them work out the bugs.

Fazz

That's another thing.. Tubs or clinchers
Presume you're running clinchers if using away as training wheel also.
Good point though and no reason why not in fairness.

If any key power sessions need to be done no real reason not to use powertap on race wheels. Defo would want to get more use out of race wheels anyway.

I can also get a powertap built into existing wheel but need to check costs as after shipping etc may just be worth buying new wheel and selling existing.

Garmin have just got my hopes up, and let down then!

sconhome

Given the choice of a pedal based system I would go Polar over the Garmin. Simply because Polar don't come to the market with unresolved glitches, their products work from the launch, end of story.

Question over which is the better system: Is a crank based system more accurate than pedal based? Does anyone have a view on that?

Practicality wise I would prefer to only be swapping pedals from one bike to another rather than faffing about with cranks or bottom brackets.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Given the choice of a pedal based system I would go Polar over the Garmin. Simply because Polar don't come to the market with unresolved glitches, their products work from the launch, end of story.

Question over which is the better system: Is a crank based system more accurate than pedal based? Does anyone have a view on that?

Practicality wise I would prefer to only be swapping pedals from one bike to another rather than faffing about with cranks or bottom brackets.

My problem with Polar is that they see heart rate first and THEN power. They view their system as a heart rate system that does power and not the other way around. You cannot even turn off the HR recording on a Polar and the capacity on the head units is pants.

That being said their heart units actually work. And Garmin skip and patch later. 310xt being case in point - not just bad firmware in the first few lots but dodgy hardware too.

Pedals or cranks?

A better question is do pedal systems work. Show me the threads on wattage where the power gurus have dissected a side by side comparison of calibrated SRMs, a power tap and pedal based system. There are none. Until that happens I am not convinced that a pedal based system CAN work. And there are many more that share my skepticism.

cian287

Just to let you all know, garmin are going to announce a another delay in the release of the vector !!! no reason.

sconhome

I'll be going with the Polar pedal system.

Having read a fair bit, not all, about the whole PM area and usage helped convince me that it would work accurately.

Its the knowledge of the quality of Polar products which helps my decision. The Kao pedals have a series of sensors which will pick up the push and pull of each leg stroke through 8 sectors giving (I feel) more accuracy through the entire stroke and showing the power curve of each leg.

The ease of changing from bike to bike is definitely a big plus over crank based systems.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

I'll be going with the Polar pedal system.

Having read a fair bit, not all, about the whole PM area and usage helped convince me that it would work accurately.

Its the knowledge of the quality of Polar products which helps my decision. The Kao pedals have a series of sensors which will pick up the push and pull of each leg stroke through 8 sectors giving (I feel) more accuracy through the entire stroke and showing the power curve of each leg.

The ease of changing from bike to bike is definitely a big plus over crank based systems.

Have you looked into the ease of transfer and the horizontal alignment that MUST be right with the Polar system?

mloc123

amphkingwest wrote: »

The ease of changing from bike to bike is definitely a big plus over crank based systems.

A crank takes maybe 2-3 minutes to swap from one bike to another?

bryangiggsy

mloc123 wrote: »

A crank takes maybe 2-3 minutes to swap from one bike to another?

I was actually surprised to see how easy it is to change the SRM from bike to bike once u used the supplied bottom brackets. Quicker than changing a puncture. SRM is awesome.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

bryangiggsy wrote: »

I was actually surprised to see how easy it is to change the SRM from bike to bike once u used the supplied bottom brackets. Quicker than changing a puncture. SRM is awesome.

GTFO sure you have a personal fitter do it for you

tunney

Lea Whining Nitroglycerine wrote: »

GTFO sure you have a personal fitter do it for you

Who puts grease on a bolt that should have threadlock on it..........

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Have you looked into the ease of transfer and the horizontal alignment that MUST be right with the Polar system?

AFAIK the system is self calibrating so there should be no issue with aligning the system once the pedals are fitted properly. I'm not sure how the alignment can be an issue?

Again, not having experience of the different PM options I'm simply looking at the Polar / Kao pedals as being the best option for me (being a Polar HRM user with WIND sensors already).

Doing the reading I can't see a significant difference in the crank, hub or pedal systems that would swing it one way or the other for me. I have ruled out the older chain tension based Polar system, I think it picked up harmonics from the chain that identified the power that was being generated using a fancy algorithm. Possibly a good option for a €200-300 entry level guage of power, but probably outdated by now.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

AFAIK the system is self calibrating so there should be no issue with aligning the system once the pedals are fitted properly. I'm not sure how the alignment can be an issue?

Again, not having experience of the different PM options I'm simply looking at the Polar / Kao pedals as being the best option for me (being a Polar HRM user with WIND sensors already).

Doing the reading I can't see a significant difference in the crank, hub or pedal systems that would swing it one way or the other for me. I have ruled out the older chain tension based Polar system, I think it picked up harmonics from the chain that identified the power that was being generated using a fancy algorithm. Possibly a good option for a €200-300 entry level guage of power, but probably outdated by now.

feck it I cannot find the article about the polars alignment..........

I'm tempted to get a Polar RX5 as the hybrid transmitters would work with my SRM PCV.

If only the Polar pedals were priced a little better. SRMs (FSA version) are substantially cheaper.

sconhome

Oh if you can find anything about them I'd appreciate it. Lots to learn and glad of the advice.

The Polar pedals are being sold incl a CS600 headunit which is why they are a bit more expensive relatively.

big mce

tunney wrote: »

feck it I cannot find the article about the polars alignment..........

I'm tempted to get a Polar RX5 as the hybrid transmitters would work with my SRM PCV.

If only the Polar pedals were priced a little better. SRMs (FSA version) are substantially cheaper.

Isn't the RX5 a step back from the 800PTE as it doesn't do altitude. I'd miss that in polar protrainer. Unless you have the gps unit or a garmin also.

I'm thinking of flogging my polar 800PTE and buying the garmin 910xt. As regards the power meter I'm assuming the polar will only be polar compatible?

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Oh if you can find anything about them I'd appreciate it. Lots to learn and glad of the advice.

The Polar pedals are being sold incl a CS600 headunit which is why they are a bit more expensive relatively.

But SRMs + a Garmin is still way less. no?

tunney

big mce wrote: »

Isn't the RX5 a step back from the 800PTE as it doesn't do altitude. I'd miss that in polar protrainer. Unless you have the gps unit or a garmin also.

I'm thinking of flogging my polar 800PTE and buying the garmin 910xt. As regards the power meter I'm assuming the polar will only be polar compatible?

RX5 has some less features alright, but the hybrid transmitter lets it work in the swim.

Although I'd like the RR from the 800

The RX5 will not work with a polar power meter. They've sorta c0cked that one up.

big mce

Fazz wrote: »

I recently rented a CompuTrainer for 3 months and enjoyed training with power a lot.

OT I know but Fazz where did you rent the computrainer and how much?

Thanks.

big mce

tunney wrote: »

RX5 has some less features alright, but the hybrid transmitter lets it work in the swim.

Although I'd like the RR from the 800

The RX5 will not work with a polar power meter. They've sorta c0cked that one up.

The polar 800 is a real pain during a tri as it takes ages to pick up the different sensors after the swim , ie speed, cadence and then the stride on the run. I'm on my fourth stride sensor, hence me thinking of changing to the garmin 910.

sconhome

The G5 GPS sensor works fine with the RS800, smaller that the G3.

There are differeneces between the RS800 which is an elite level training computer and the RCX5 which is a mutlisport watch. I think the missing the power meter is to keep it mutli sport. There is a new high end multi sport in development, sort of a RS800 for triathletes, I'd reckon that will be bells and whistles for all the add-on units.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

But SRMs + a Garmin is still way less. no?

Consider the CS600 retails about €300 it puts the pedals about €1200-1300 (ish).

Whats the SRM / Powertap retail at?

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Consider the CS600 retails about €300 it puts the pedals about €1200-1300 (ish).

Whats the SRM / Powertap retail at?

Don't know where you think you are getting the polar power meter + head unit for €1500-1600, try €2200-2300

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Don't know where you think you are getting the polar power meter + head unit for €1500-1600, try €2200-2300

You're looking in the wrong places.;)

Fazz

big mce wrote: »

OT I know but Fazz where did you rent the computrainer and how much?

Thanks.

Simon from Computrainer UK.
check out his site he has prices up there.
Pretty reasonable in fairness.


I still haven't bought a power meter myself.
Going to hold out till I decide what way to proceed.
It's more of a want and nice to have but wasn't quite happy with powertap decision deciding between training vs race wheels so I just held off.

I think a Quarq is the best option all round - or SRM if they are near same cost now.
If Garmin are delaying the Vector again it's a bit of a worrying sign.

Fazz

amphkingwest wrote: »

Consider the CS600 retails about €300 it puts the pedals about €1200-1300 (ish).

Whats the SRM / Powertap retail at?

Powertap Hub can be got for around the €800 mark, and €100 to rebuild into existing wheel.

Defo the cheapest of the known reliable power meters.


edit - make that €700 now!... still seriously tempting.

big mce

I really like the idea of the garmin vector. It would leave things very easy to swap between bikes. While I agree with Tunney it doesn't take long to change a chainset, your presuming your running shimano, FSA etc on all your bikes, otherwise your changing bottom brackets which isn't quite as easy. I do agree that the delays are a worrying sign. Maybe they have upped their quality control and are making sure this product works on release!