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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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    #482
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Festus wrote: »
    Citation please, or is this just your opinion.

    Can you be more specific as to what you want a citation to support


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    #483
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Festus wrote: »
    I didn't say that.

    It is the only outcome from what you did say.

    If you disagree can you outline why God would throw the soul of a foetus that has never had a functioning brain let alone the ability to make a choice into hell for sinning?


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    #484
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Zombrex wrote: »
    In my experience about 6 months before conception. Perhaps that is when we should say a person is created :rolleyes:

    Now we know you can't read.
    Zombrex wrote: »
    I must remember that the next time I masturbate. Oh right, that's different ...

    Know we know your level of scientific ignorance.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    Yes, in the case of Edwards disease it is 1 in 100. Any parent who picks those odds is either incredible selfish or needs to brush up on their secondary school maths (in the case of Rich Santorium I'm guessing that is both)

    You really don't like Catholics much.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    You want to make it illegal to have unprotected sex? Good luck with that one.

    I understand in some countries if you knowingly pass HIV through unprotected sex you can be charged with murder or attempted murder.

    As for paying people to have children outside of wedlock, that is a matter for the government you vote in to power.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    So screw the experience these kids will have growing up poor without proper food, living in a cramped tiny corporation house with 15 of them. Keep these kids coming, its all ok cause they are going to pay for your pension.

    Do you ever look at the bigger picture or are you really just that narrow minded.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    Lol. Yup they selfless rolled the dice and selflessly gave their young daughter the changes to die horribly from a genetic disease. What stellar parents.

    Your judgemental and prejudiced attitude is becoming somewhat tiresome.

    Zombrex wrote: »
    I don't give a crap about the parents I'm talking about the children.

    Man what part of that are you not getting. Children do not exist to give to their parents. It is the other way around.

    Actually there is a reciprocity involved particularly where unconditional love is concerned.

    Do you understand unconditional love because it seems that you are only prepared to love a child on condition it is perfect.

    Charming indeed.


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    #485
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Zombrex wrote: »
    It is the only outcome from what you did say.

    How so?


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    #486
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    We all get to eternal life however we need to be baptised for Heaven to be an option. Children who die before being baptised are at the mercy of God.

    At the mercy of a merciful God?

    From Matthew 19:
    13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

    Also, Jesus did say that the son will not pay for the wickedness of his father.

    Seems pretty straightforward to me.
    Festus wrote: »
    We're all born with sin so the only option is to give birth and have the child baptised.
    Besides if we took your option the human race would cease to exist and all parents would be murderers

    In the phrase, 'Blessed are the pure of heart...', what does 'pure' mean?

    And regarding 'we're all born with sin', what was Jesus sacrificed for?

    Seems pretty straight forward to me.
    Festus wrote: »
    We don't get that choice. If we did we could always choose not the be conceived but given that we don't exist until we are conceived I think you should be able to see the problem with that.

    We are all going to hell anyway so we might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. Why should we have offspring that in all likelihood are destined for eternal suffering?


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    #487
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    Actually there is a reciprocity involved particularly where unconditional love is concerned.

    Do you understand unconditional love because it seems that you are only prepared to love a child on condition it is perfect..
    Festus wrote: »
    Well, the world needs kids. Where is the workforce that will pay the taxes to provide you with an old age pension going to come from? Or are you sufficiently independantly wealthy that you really don't care?

    Bloody hilarious.


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    #488
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    At the mercy of a merciful God?

    From Matthew 19:
    13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

    Can you see the difference between these childred and those who are aborted?
    Wh1stler wrote: »
    Also, Jesus did say that the son will not pay for the wickedness of his father.

    Where? Don't forget to get the context right. It is such a pain when the Bible is quoted out of context for the sake of a cheap point.



    Wh1stler wrote: »
    In the phrase, 'Blessed are the pure of heart...', what does 'pure' mean?

    Contextually Jesus was talking to people who could hear Him.
    Wh1stler wrote: »
    And regarding 'we're all born with sin', what was Jesus sacrificed for?

    This would he a good time of the year to find out.

    Wh1stler wrote: »
    We are all going to hell anyway so we might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. Why should we have offspring that in all likelihood are destined for eternal suffering?

    Speak for yourself and your cohorts.


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    #489
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    Bloody hilarious.

    Glad you liked it. Anything constructive to add?


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    #490
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    How so?

    Because apparently we have to choose to go to hell by turning away from God.

    How does an unborn baby make such a choice?


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    #491
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    Glad you liked it. Anything constructive to add?

    Nope. I think you have said quite enough.


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    #492
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    Where? Don't forget to get the context right. It is such a pain when the Bible is quoted out of context for the sake of a cheap point.

    My apologies. It was God who said it.


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    #493
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    Can you see the difference between these childred and those who are aborted?

    From an 'innocence' point of view, no.
    Festus wrote: »
    Contextually Jesus was talking to people who could hear Him.

    Let me rephrase the question so you may try to answer again as I'm sure you are not trying to evade it:

    In the phrase, 'Blessed are the pure of heart...', what does the word 'pure' mean?


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    #494
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Festus wrote: »
    Now we know you can't read.

    No, you just don't like the consequences of what I wrote. When a woman starts to think she is having a baby is utterly irrelevant to the conversation, as you yourself would point out if anyone tried to support abortion with tales of women who go the entire way threw pregnancy and then dump their new born babies in a bin because they have never emotionally connected to the child as a baby.
    Festus wrote: »
    Know we know your level of scientific ignorance.
    Some day you will learn sperm are human.
    Festus wrote: »
    You really don't like Catholics much.

    If they are as selfish as what I describe, no not particularly. Thankfully I think when push comes to shove most "Catholics" would do the right thing, though to you that might mean you no longer consider them Catholic.
    Festus wrote: »
    I understand in some countries if you knowingly pass HIV through unprotected sex you can be charged with murder or attempted murder.

    As for paying people to have children outside of wedlock, that is a matter for the government you vote in to power.

    I'm unaware of any government that pays people to have children. Plenty pay for the children once they are born because someone has to, unless we want to go back to starving children.
    Festus wrote: »
    Do you ever look at the bigger picture or are you really just that narrow minded.

    I find "looking at the bigger picture" is very often used to justify all sorts of things, but normally centred around the interests of those asking you to look at it.
    Festus wrote: »
    Your judgemental and prejudiced attitude is becoming somewhat tiresome.
    The truth often is.
    Festus wrote: »
    Actually there is a reciprocity involved particularly where unconditional love is concerned.

    Bringing a baby into this world simply so it can suffer and die is not my definition of "unconditional love".

    The baby has a short, painful existence before dying, but that's ok cause the parents got to know the joy of having children. Whip-dy-do.


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    #495
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Festus wrote: »
    How so?

    If God doesn't want you to suffer he is not going to send you to hell unless you have done something to deserve it. Since a foetus cannot have sinned it cannot, by definition, have done anything to deserve it. Hence no foetus will be sent to hell, they will go to heaven.


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    #496
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Bringing a baby into this world simply so it can suffer and die is not my definition of "unconditional love".

    Funnily enough, that is exactly what Mary mother of Jesus knowingly did.

    The more things change, huh?


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    #497
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Zombrex raised an interesting point earlier and no-one picked up on it strangely. :rolleyes:

    If the soul enters at conception then what is the situation when twins or triplets, etc., are the result of the pregnancy? Can two, three or even more souls inhabit the same diploid?


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    #498
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    This video is awesome, a must see using new technology!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyljukBE70


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    #499
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    Zombrex raised an interesting point earlier and no-one picked up on it strangely. :rolleyes:

    If the soul enters at conception then what is the situation when twins or triplets, etc., are the result of the pregnancy? Can two, three or even more souls inhabit the same diploid?
    A soul doesn't have mass, so wouldn't take up 'space'. Obviously God knows in advance when He decided that there would be triplets/twins etc. (Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Jer 1:15)


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    #500
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    This video is awesome, a must see using new technology!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyljukBE70

    Yes, incredible.

    As are these videos.

    http://natgeotv.com/in/in-the-womb/videos/in-the-womb-dogs


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    #501
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Can you be more specific as to what you want a citation to support

    Your assertion...
    Zombrex wrote: »
    Yes. A person is their brain (specifically the higher functions of the brain) and the brain is the person. There is no other supported argument for personhood, certainly not conception which does nothing except join some DNA together.


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    #502
    whitemocha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭whitemocha


    what are you opinions on medical terminations?


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    #503
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Festus wrote: »
    Your assertion...

    Repeating back what I said to you in its entirety is not being more specific.


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    #504
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,175 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Repeating back what I said to you in its entirety is not being more specific.
    Well, have you a citation for any part of what Festus quoted? There's only two sentences there; can you provide citations for either of them?


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    #505
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    A soul doesn't have mass, so wouldn't take up 'space'.

    Says who?
    Obviously God knows in advance when He decided that there would be triplets/twins etc. (Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Jer 1:15)

    Going by this, he'd then 'obviously' know that an in utero child will be healthy, or have a disability which prevents it from reaching full term.


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    #506
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    (Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Jer 1:15)

    This is not how one becomes pregnant.


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    #507
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    Festus wrote: »
    Your assertion...

    Well, if you don't think that the brain is the source of personhood then you must also believe that all brain-dead people should remain on life support indefinitely as to turn it off would be worse than abortion.

    Is that your postion?

    Where do you suppose 'personhood' arises from?


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    #508
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    Well, if you don't think that the brain is the source of personhood then you must also believe that all brain-dead people should remain on life support indefinitely as to turn it off would be worse than abortion.

    Is that your postion?

    Where do you suppose 'personhood' arises from?

    Where is personhood defined in the scientific and medical literature?


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    #509
    The Brigadier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    What always puzzles me is how people can get so worked up over the "right" to choose and yet ignore the rights of the unborn.


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    #510
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    The Brigadier wrote: »
    What always puzzles me is how people can get so worked up over the "right" to choose and yet ignore the rights of the unborn.

    It all boils down to what they consider a person to be.


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    #511
    The Brigadier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    Jernal wrote: »
    It all boils down to what they consider a person to be.

    And why do they think that they have the right to decide?


This discussion has been closed.
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