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Children's Hospital on hold after planning refusal. New idea

  • 23-02-2012 8:40pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    The National Childrens' Hospital has hit the bufferes with An Bord Pleanala.

    They don't like it for all sorts of reasons.

    Here's a thought.

    Move the Mater to a new site at Thornton Hall, and build the Childrens's hospital there as well.

    That frees up lots of space near Mountjoy. Expand Mountjoy onto the old Mater site. Move over. Demolish the old Mountjoy, and expand it and merge the 2 together.

    Mater and Childrens hospital have a massive site with easy access, lots of parking space, and space to expand as new facilities are needed.

    Mountjoy is sorted, expanded, and modernised

    Every one happy.

    What's the problem with that?

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭ Biggins


    ...What's the problem with that?

    It probably doesn't suit for some reason, the mates of certain people in the Dail as they try and see to it that their corporate friends in businesses get the tenders for contracts!

    Seriously though - maybe they'd be better off stripping down in numbers, the white collar department chiefs and quangos involved with the HSE and work on fixing the present hospitals than build more, only to eventually have them money starved and resource short too!

    Just a notion!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 micropig


    I was just going to suggest they move it to Thornton Hall, it's already landscaped...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭ Jim_Kiy


    We are broke...thats why its off and everything is off till the IMF **** off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 micropig


    Jim_Kiy wrote: »
    We are broke...thats why its off and everything is off till the IMF **** off.

    Well we have enough money to pay lots of superfluous middle managers and consultants..

    Surely providing a proper childrens' hospital is more important

    Government needs to examine its priorities


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭ Biggins


    micropig wrote: »
    Well we have enough money to pay lots of superfluous middle managers and consultants..

    Surely providing a proper childrens' hospital is more important

    Government needs to examine its priorities

    They can't properly run and manage the ones we already have, and they want to build more - and we know any new one will eventually be caught up in the austerity measures too!
    Yea, lets possibly make things even worse!


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 Milk & Honey


    There is no reason why Mountjoy Prisons couldn't be moved and the new hospital built on the site. Much more room and negligible visual impact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,019 Badgermonkey


    What's the problem with that?

    Where will we store the e-voting machines?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 micropig


    Biggins wrote: »
    They can't properly run and manage the ones we already have, and they want to build more - and we know any new one will eventually be caught up in the austerity measures too!
    Yea, lets possibly make things even worse!

    Maybe we also need to look at the salaries of these inefficient mangers we are currently paying..

    Cut these incompetent people out of the system and get people in who actually can do the job


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,533 ✭✭✭ KKkitty


    micropig wrote: »
    Biggins wrote: »
    They can't properly run and manage the ones we already have, and they want to build more - and we know any new one will eventually be caught up in the austerity measures too!
    Yea, lets possibly make things even worse!

    Maybe we also need to look at the salaries of these inefficient mangers we are currently paying..

    Cut these incompetent people out of the system and get people in who actually can do the job
    +1 and it's as simple as this in any job if you weren't doing your job properly you'd be sacked but not with politicians.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭ Biggins


    micropig wrote: »
    Maybe we also need to look at the salaries of these inefficient mangers we are currently paying..

    Cut these incompetent people out of the system and get people in who actually can do the job

    Thats certainly one aspect for sure.
    Another reportedly is that there is just too many chiefs and not enough Indians, to coin a well used phrase!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,848 bleg


    They just spent millions building a new Mater hospital that's nearly finished.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,286 ✭✭✭✭ HeidiHeidi


    The National Childrens' Hospital has hit the bufferes with An Bord Pleanala.

    They don't like it for all sorts of reasons.

    Here's a thought.

    Move the Mater to a new site at Thornton Hall, and build the Childrens's hospital there as well.

    That frees up lots of space near Mountjoy. Expand Mountjoy onto the old Mater site. Move over. Demolish the old Mountjoy, and expand it and merge the 2 together.

    Mater and Childrens hospital have a massive site with easy access, lots of parking space, and space to expand as new facilities are needed.

    Mountjoy is sorted, expanded, and modernised

    Every one happy.

    What's the problem with that?

    It makes sense.

    It'll never happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 653 girl in the striped socks


    Biggins for president!
    Seriously though that's a great idea. It makes sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ one foot in the grave


    There is no reason why Mountjoy Prisons couldn't be moved and the new hospital built on the site. Much more room and negligible visual impact.

    That has been suggested many times. And makes alot of sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭ greendom


    it was apparently turned down as it would detract from the Dublin skyline. Have I been looking the wrong way ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,249 ✭✭✭✭ Guy:Incognito


    God forbid we have a slightly tall building in the capital. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,916 RonMexico


    They had a computer generated image of what it would have looked like on the news there and to be fair it looked absolutely ridiculous in that location.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 Milk & Honey


    The height was not the only problem. The bulk and context were also wrong. It has long been recommended that tall buildings be sited near Heuston Station. The problem with the proposal was trying to squeeze so much into such a small site. There are other potential sites. The military hospital on Infirmary road is being vacated. So are the council flats beside it. It is not far from St. James and the Mater. It would be on the Luas, Mainline Rail and bus and near the Phoenix Park. Accessible from the M50 via the M4.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭ Bridger Nice Rationalization


    Here's an idea don't bother spending one more iota on a capital project that will never see the light of day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,286 ✭✭✭✭ HeidiHeidi


    RonMexico wrote: »
    They had a computer generated image of what it would have looked like on the news there and to be fair it looked absolutely ridiculous in that location.

    +1 :eek:


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭ My_left_leg


    This is a joke.
    How could it impact on the skyline?
    I mean that whole area (North Inner city) is a total kip.
    Apart from a few exceptions you could bulldoze the whole area and it would be an improvement.

    This country is a basket-case.
    End of.


    PS: I am not Eammo in disguise btw!


  • Registered Users Posts: 811 cassid


    Not too far from the mater is the site at Grangegorman. It has suppose to go to the DIT but thats on the back burner now. Huge site for the hospital and some open space as well and still close to city centre transport and the other hospitals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,199 ✭✭✭ languagenerd


    Just out of interest, was anyone (apart from politicians) in favour of the Children's Hospital being put on that site? Practically everyone I've spoken to wanted it elsewhere, just wondered if anyone here was in favour.

    I never thought it was a good place for it - it's not big enough for one, it hasn't got good transport links, it's in a place where traffic is very bad at certain times of day (meaning it would take ages to get a sick child there) and it's opposite a prison...

    James Reilly is on Prime Time atm, he still won't admit that it was unrealistic or concede that someone should have thought about the planning permission earlier. What a tosser...
    RonMexico wrote: »
    They had a computer generated image of what it would have looked like on the news there and to be fair it looked absolutely ridiculous in that location.

    I saw it too, looked more like a bloody cruise ship than a hospital!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 Milk & Honey


    Just out of interest, was anyone (apart from politicians) in favour of the Children's Hospital being put on that site? Practically everyone I've spoken to wanted it elsewhere, just wondered if anyone here was in favour.


    Some specialist consultants wanted it as well. Time is lost moving between hospitals. They want as many patients as possible on the same site.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    ABP's rejection reads remarkably like an Aircraft accident investigation, they don't look to establish blame for what happened, just look at the facts and report accordingly.

    The most damning and accurate comment they made was that the Children's hospital would be "an overdevelopment" of the area. That's polite speak for saying, too many people, too many cars and other vehicles, too much congestion, too little services around it to get people and things in and out, too intrusive on the skyscape, etc etc.

    It wasn't just high rise, it was 16 floors, 70 something metres, which is almost the height of Liberty building, but on the top of the hills, so overpowering the skyline from places like O'Connell Street.

    Now, and this is where you'll have to take my word for it. Not that many years ago, in a city much smaller than Dublin, the relevant authorities decided to build a new hospital to replace the very old and no longer fit for purpose buildings they'd been operating from for close on a century. Accordingly, a new hospital was indeed built, about 9 floors high, if memory serves, and it was a smart and good facility. However there was a problem, it was discovered before too long that it was one of the first UK buildings to suffer from Concrete cancer, which meant a massive problem. They dealt with it by building a newer hospital around the new one, but this time, based on operational experience, they built low level, then demolished the tower block, and rebuilt the final pieces they needed where that had been. What became clear was that the day to day operation of a hospital 9 floors high was a problem, so they didn't do the same again. Now, they're talking 16 floors here. Not clever in my book. Even more worrying is that the one I'm talking about had near enough the same number of beds as the new Mater, but was a fraction of the size.

    Just been glancing over the ABP report, and looking for the real reasons for rejection. How about the shortfall in parking, the figure estimated for the NCH is that it will need about 2500 parking spaces, it has under 1000 in the present plan, so that's 1500 people a day that will either spend (waste) time searching for somewhere to abandon their vehicle, which will put massive pressure onto an area that's already under pressure. There are issues with public transport, and worries about access now that Metro North has been put on the long finger. All sorts of other issues, like congestion management, overshadowing.

    It's clear that the Gov't were not expecting it to be rejected so solidly, I guess they were hoping for a yes with lots of conditions, but now, they have to find an acceptable way forward for a project that's already mired in controversy. Hopefully, not too many people were financially depending on this project starting any time soon, as they may be about to get a nasty shock.

    This is for sure going to roll for a while!

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭ mikemac1


    National Childrens Hospital, for everyone in Ireland

    Put it out in Tallaght where it's easy to get to, better option then city centre but then Bertie was in power and the leader gets what he wants for his area

    I don't see the objection to the height, sure Belfast City Hospital is high rise and nobody is bothered by it


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,848 bleg


    It's a pity it's going to delay the decision. A greenfield site would obviously be the best choice but that would involve building a huge new adult hospital to try to replace the big three and all the headaches that would bring. Next to this, James' is probably the obvious option - more room available and access to the Luas.

    The whole thing is a huge and complete mess. With so many interest groups and clinical decisions to consider I would hate to be involved in any way in making a decision about this. I don't think anybody will ever be happy.


    For what it's worth, from a clinical point of view (the most important IMO) it has been assessed that a co-located hospital at the Mater site would be the best option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,383 amacachi


    Just out of interest Biggins, in the political party you support I didn't see anything about redundancies in the PS, just moving people around. Did you suggest the same things you're saying on this thread but it was decided by others not to have such policies for the party?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    bleg wrote: »
    It's a pity it's going to delay the decision. A greenfield site would obviously be the best choice but that would involve building a huge new adult hospital to try to replace the big three and all the headaches that would bring.

    Hence the not altogether tongue in cheek suggestion of Thornton Hall.. Site already landscaped and ready to go, already bought and paid for, water and other services already in or well on the way, dedicated access road off the old N2, no ruch hour congestion, no impact on city scapes, easy access from the M50, even at peak times, easy to set up transport to the place from Dublin, no restrictions on space for staff parking or visitor parking, no problems of the place becoming a default park and ride for city centre. Cheaper construction cos it won't need to be 16 floors high, much easier build as it's green field, and no basement that has to be waterproofed, the list just goes on. The additional costs of the Mater site are incredible, because of the limitations, and complications of a very cramped and difficult site. A green field even with an adult hospital could still come out cheaper, with the advantage of a brand new adult facility. That has to be worth looking at

    Even if it meant a new adult hospital on the same site, is that so bad, given that the North East is going to need something like that before too long.

    Forget Tallaght, it's already overcrowded space wise, fitting another hospital on that site would be a nightmare. Even gettting short term parking to make a delivery is a nightmare.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,295 ✭✭✭✭ Mint Sauce


    Jim_Kiy wrote: »
    We are broke...thats why its off and everything is off till the IMF **** off.

    Building the place is actully the cheapest part.

    Unfortunatly the greed of some has fucked up the needs of our current generations and future.

    :mad:


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