Children's Hospital on hold after planning refusal. New idea

Irish Steve

The National Childrens' Hospital has hit the bufferes with An Bord Pleanala.

They don't like it for all sorts of reasons.

Here's a thought.

Move the Mater to a new site at Thornton Hall, and build the Childrens's hospital there as well.

That frees up lots of space near Mountjoy. Expand Mountjoy onto the old Mater site. Move over. Demolish the old Mountjoy, and expand it and merge the 2 together.

Mater and Childrens hospital have a massive site with easy access, lots of parking space, and space to expand as new facilities are needed.

Mountjoy is sorted, expanded, and modernised

Every one happy.

What's the problem with that?

Biggins

Irish Steve wrote: »

...What's the problem with that?

It probably doesn't suit for some reason, the mates of certain people in the Dail as they try and see to it that their corporate friends in businesses get the tenders for contracts!

Seriously though - maybe they'd be better off stripping down in numbers, the white collar department chiefs and quangos involved with the HSE and work on fixing the present hospitals than build more, only to eventually have them money starved and resource short too!

Just a notion!

micropig

I was just going to suggest they move it to Thornton Hall, it's already landscaped...

Jim_Kiy

We are broke...thats why its off and everything is off till the IMF **** off.

micropig

Jim_Kiy wrote: »

We are broke...thats why its off and everything is off till the IMF **** off.

Well we have enough money to pay lots of superfluous middle managers and consultants..

Surely providing a proper childrens' hospital is more important

Government needs to examine its priorities

Biggins

micropig wrote: »

Well we have enough money to pay lots of superfluous middle managers and consultants..

Surely providing a proper childrens' hospital is more important

Government needs to examine its priorities

They can't properly run and manage the ones we already have, and they want to build more - and we know any new one will eventually be caught up in the austerity measures too!
Yea, lets possibly make things even worse!

Milk & Honey

There is no reason why Mountjoy Prisons couldn't be moved and the new hospital built on the site. Much more room and negligible visual impact.

Badgermonkey

Irish Steve wrote: »

What's the problem with that?

Where will we store the e-voting machines?

micropig

Biggins wrote: »

They can't properly run and manage the ones we already have, and they want to build more - and we know any new one will eventually be caught up in the austerity measures too!
Yea, lets possibly make things even worse!

Maybe we also need to look at the salaries of these inefficient mangers we are currently paying..

Cut these incompetent people out of the system and get people in who actually can do the job

KKkitty

micropig wrote: »

Biggins wrote: »

They can't properly run and manage the ones we already have, and they want to build more - and we know any new one will eventually be caught up in the austerity measures too!
Yea, lets possibly make things even worse!

Maybe we also need to look at the salaries of these inefficient mangers we are currently paying..

Cut these incompetent people out of the system and get people in who actually can do the job

+1 and it's as simple as this in any job if you weren't doing your job properly you'd be sacked but not with politicians.

Biggins

micropig wrote: »

Maybe we also need to look at the salaries of these inefficient mangers we are currently paying..

Cut these incompetent people out of the system and get people in who actually can do the job

Thats certainly one aspect for sure.
Another reportedly is that there is just too many chiefs and not enough Indians, to coin a well used phrase!

bleg

They just spent millions building a new Mater hospital that's nearly finished.....

HeidiHeidi

Irish Steve wrote: »

The National Childrens' Hospital has hit the bufferes with An Bord Pleanala.

They don't like it for all sorts of reasons.

Here's a thought.

Move the Mater to a new site at Thornton Hall, and build the Childrens's hospital there as well.

That frees up lots of space near Mountjoy. Expand Mountjoy onto the old Mater site. Move over. Demolish the old Mountjoy, and expand it and merge the 2 together.

Mater and Childrens hospital have a massive site with easy access, lots of parking space, and space to expand as new facilities are needed.

Mountjoy is sorted, expanded, and modernised

Every one happy.

What's the problem with that?

It makes sense.

It'll never happen.

girl in the striped socks

Biggins for president!
Seriously though that's a great idea. It makes sense.

one foot in the grave

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is no reason why Mountjoy Prisons couldn't be moved and the new hospital built on the site. Much more room and negligible visual impact.

That has been suggested many times. And makes alot of sense.

greendom

it was apparently turned down as it would detract from the Dublin skyline. Have I been looking the wrong way ?

Guy:Incognito

God forbid we have a slightly tall building in the capital. :rolleyes:

RonMexico

They had a computer generated image of what it would have looked like on the news there and to be fair it looked absolutely ridiculous in that location.

Milk & Honey

The height was not the only problem. The bulk and context were also wrong. It has long been recommended that tall buildings be sited near Heuston Station. The problem with the proposal was trying to squeeze so much into such a small site. There are other potential sites. The military hospital on Infirmary road is being vacated. So are the council flats beside it. It is not far from St. James and the Mater. It would be on the Luas, Mainline Rail and bus and near the Phoenix Park. Accessible from the M50 via the M4.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

Here's an idea don't bother spending one more iota on a capital project that will never see the light of day.

HeidiHeidi

RonMexico wrote: »

They had a computer generated image of what it would have looked like on the news there and to be fair it looked absolutely ridiculous in that location.

+1 :eek:

My_left_leg

This is a joke.
How could it impact on the skyline?
I mean that whole area (North Inner city) is a total kip.
Apart from a few exceptions you could bulldoze the whole area and it would be an improvement.

This country is a basket-case.
End of.


PS: I am not Eammo in disguise btw!

cassid

Not too far from the mater is the site at Grangegorman. It has suppose to go to the DIT but thats on the back burner now. Huge site for the hospital and some open space as well and still close to city centre transport and the other hospitals.

languagenerd

Just out of interest, was anyone (apart from politicians) in favour of the Children's Hospital being put on that site? Practically everyone I've spoken to wanted it elsewhere, just wondered if anyone here was in favour.

I never thought it was a good place for it - it's not big enough for one, it hasn't got good transport links, it's in a place where traffic is very bad at certain times of day (meaning it would take ages to get a sick child there) and it's opposite a prison...

James Reilly is on Prime Time atm, he still won't admit that it was unrealistic or concede that someone should have thought about the planning permission earlier. What a tosser...

RonMexico wrote: »

They had a computer generated image of what it would have looked like on the news there and to be fair it looked absolutely ridiculous in that location.

I saw it too, looked more like a bloody cruise ship than a hospital!

Milk & Honey

languagenerd wrote: »

Just out of interest, was anyone (apart from politicians) in favour of the Children's Hospital being put on that site? Practically everyone I've spoken to wanted it elsewhere, just wondered if anyone here was in favour.

Some specialist consultants wanted it as well. Time is lost moving between hospitals. They want as many patients as possible on the same site.

Irish Steve

ABP's rejection reads remarkably like an Aircraft accident investigation, they don't look to establish blame for what happened, just look at the facts and report accordingly.

The most damning and accurate comment they made was that the Children's hospital would be "an overdevelopment" of the area. That's polite speak for saying, too many people, too many cars and other vehicles, too much congestion, too little services around it to get people and things in and out, too intrusive on the skyscape, etc etc.

It wasn't just high rise, it was 16 floors, 70 something metres, which is almost the height of Liberty building, but on the top of the hills, so overpowering the skyline from places like O'Connell Street.

Now, and this is where you'll have to take my word for it. Not that many years ago, in a city much smaller than Dublin, the relevant authorities decided to build a new hospital to replace the very old and no longer fit for purpose buildings they'd been operating from for close on a century. Accordingly, a new hospital was indeed built, about 9 floors high, if memory serves, and it was a smart and good facility. However there was a problem, it was discovered before too long that it was one of the first UK buildings to suffer from Concrete cancer, which meant a massive problem. They dealt with it by building a newer hospital around the new one, but this time, based on operational experience, they built low level, then demolished the tower block, and rebuilt the final pieces they needed where that had been. What became clear was that the day to day operation of a hospital 9 floors high was a problem, so they didn't do the same again. Now, they're talking 16 floors here. Not clever in my book. Even more worrying is that the one I'm talking about had near enough the same number of beds as the new Mater, but was a fraction of the size.

Just been glancing over the ABP report, and looking for the real reasons for rejection. How about the shortfall in parking, the figure estimated for the NCH is that it will need about 2500 parking spaces, it has under 1000 in the present plan, so that's 1500 people a day that will either spend (waste) time searching for somewhere to abandon their vehicle, which will put massive pressure onto an area that's already under pressure. There are issues with public transport, and worries about access now that Metro North has been put on the long finger. All sorts of other issues, like congestion management, overshadowing.

It's clear that the Gov't were not expecting it to be rejected so solidly, I guess they were hoping for a yes with lots of conditions, but now, they have to find an acceptable way forward for a project that's already mired in controversy. Hopefully, not too many people were financially depending on this project starting any time soon, as they may be about to get a nasty shock.

This is for sure going to roll for a while!

mikemac1

National Childrens Hospital, for everyone in Ireland

Put it out in Tallaght where it's easy to get to, better option then city centre but then Bertie was in power and the leader gets what he wants for his area

I don't see the objection to the height, sure Belfast City Hospital is high rise and nobody is bothered by it

bleg

It's a pity it's going to delay the decision. A greenfield site would obviously be the best choice but that would involve building a huge new adult hospital to try to replace the big three and all the headaches that would bring. Next to this, James' is probably the obvious option - more room available and access to the Luas.

The whole thing is a huge and complete mess. With so many interest groups and clinical decisions to consider I would hate to be involved in any way in making a decision about this. I don't think anybody will ever be happy.


For what it's worth, from a clinical point of view (the most important IMO) it has been assessed that a co-located hospital at the Mater site would be the best option.

amacachi

Just out of interest Biggins, in the political party you support I didn't see anything about redundancies in the PS, just moving people around. Did you suggest the same things you're saying on this thread but it was decided by others not to have such policies for the party?

Irish Steve

bleg wrote: »

It's a pity it's going to delay the decision. A greenfield site would obviously be the best choice but that would involve building a huge new adult hospital to try to replace the big three and all the headaches that would bring.

Hence the not altogether tongue in cheek suggestion of Thornton Hall.. Site already landscaped and ready to go, already bought and paid for, water and other services already in or well on the way, dedicated access road off the old N2, no ruch hour congestion, no impact on city scapes, easy access from the M50, even at peak times, easy to set up transport to the place from Dublin, no restrictions on space for staff parking or visitor parking, no problems of the place becoming a default park and ride for city centre. Cheaper construction cos it won't need to be 16 floors high, much easier build as it's green field, and no basement that has to be waterproofed, the list just goes on. The additional costs of the Mater site are incredible, because of the limitations, and complications of a very cramped and difficult site. A green field even with an adult hospital could still come out cheaper, with the advantage of a brand new adult facility. That has to be worth looking at

Even if it meant a new adult hospital on the same site, is that so bad, given that the North East is going to need something like that before too long.

Forget Tallaght, it's already overcrowded space wise, fitting another hospital on that site would be a nightmare. Even gettting short term parking to make a delivery is a nightmare.

Mint Sauce

Jim_Kiy wrote: »

We are broke...thats why its off and everything is off till the IMF **** off.

Building the place is actully the cheapest part.

Unfortunatly the greed of some has fucked up the needs of our current generations and future.

:mad:

admiralofthefleet

one of the reasons for its rejection was the visual impact on the area

as if DCC care about the northside! they have always been anti north dublin and always will

oppenheimer1

Irish Steve wrote: »

Hence the not altogether tongue in cheek suggestion of Thornton Hall.. Site already landscaped and ready to go, already bought and paid for, water and other services already in or well on the way, dedicated access road off the old N2, no ruch hour congestion, no impact on city scapes, easy access from the M50, even at peak times, easy to set up transport to the place from Dublin, no restrictions on space for staff parking or visitor parking, no problems of the place becoming a default park and ride for city centre. Cheaper construction cos it won't need to be 16 floors high, much easier build as it's green field, and no basement that has to be waterproofed, the list just goes on. The additional costs of the Mater site are incredible, because of the limitations, and complications of a very cramped and difficult site. A green field even with an adult hospital could still come out cheaper, with the advantage of a brand new adult facility. That has to be worth looking at

Even if it meant a new adult hospital on the same site, is that so bad, given that the North East is going to need something like that before too long.

Forget Tallaght, it's already overcrowded space wise, fitting another hospital on that site would be a nightmare. Even gettting short term parking to make a delivery is a nightmare.

But its already been explained to you. Thornton Hall is unsuitable becauss it has terrible access to public transport infrastructure. This hospital has to last for a long long time, beyond the car era. It must be located close to a transport hub/link. Mater was good in that it was to have its own Metro station.

Thornton Hall however is only accessible by road. What do families without cars do?

Another thing which is to be included is co-location with a large teaching hospital. This rules out a greenfield site.

bleg

Irish Steve wrote: »

Hence the not altogether tongue in cheek suggestion of Thornton Hall.. Site already landscaped and ready to go, already bought and paid for, water and other services already in or well on the way, dedicated access road off the old N2, no ruch hour congestion, no impact on city scapes, easy access from the M50, even at peak times, easy to set up transport to the place from Dublin, no restrictions on space for staff parking or visitor parking, no problems of the place becoming a default park and ride for city centre. Cheaper construction cos it won't need to be 16 floors high, much easier build as it's green field, and no basement that has to be waterproofed, the list just goes on. The additional costs of the Mater site are incredible, because of the limitations, and complications of a very cramped and difficult site. A green field even with an adult hospital could still come out cheaper, with the advantage of a brand new adult facility. That has to be worth looking at

Even if it meant a new adult hospital on the same site, is that so bad, given that the North East is going to need something like that before too long.

Forget Tallaght, it's already overcrowded space wise, fitting another hospital on that site would be a nightmare. Even gettting short term parking to make a delivery is a nightmare.

They just built a new adult hospital in Dublin, at the Mater... it's due to open in June but will probably be delayed til Sept/Oct. We don't have the money to build another one. That's why I'm saying it's a complete and utter mess. No site is ideal and we don't have the money for a greenfield project of the magnitude required.

oppenheimer1

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

one of the reasons for its rejection was the visual impact on the area

as if DCC care about the northside! they have always been anti north dublin and always will

It wasn't DCC, it was ABP.

Given the amount of money that has been spent on the hospital, I would be surprised if it doesn't go ahead at Mater, subject to some changes.

Irish Steve

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But its already been explained to you. Thornton Hall is unsuitable becauss it has terrible access to public transport infrastructure. This hospital has to last for a long long time, beyond the car era. It must be located close to a transport hub/link. Mater was good in that it was to have its own Metro station.

Thornton Hall however is only accessible by road. What do families without cars do?

Another thing which is to be included is co-location with a large teaching hospital. This rules out a greenfield site.

The most expensive first. I will be prepared to bet that a new adult hospital, and a decent size one at that, as well as the NCH, could be built on the Thornton site for less than the NCH on it's own was going to cost at Mater, simply because the construction systems, and site work, would be way simpler, quicker and cheaper than having to go up 16 floors as was the case at Mater. The other aspect of that is that co located does not mean they have to be in separate buildings, better in many respects if they are not, that way, some essential services can indeed be shared, and more cost effective as a result.

It would be quicker, cheaper and more effective to set up a dedicated feeder bus system from various parts of Dublin than to sort out the Mater site, given the shortfall of nearly 1500 car spaces and the many other issues that are in the rejection document. I scanned over it earlier, it's big, and what stands out clearly is that there are a lot of issues that go far beyond the height and scale of the building, and there are huge costs on the Mater site if it's going to work that would not be incurred on a green field site.

Mater was good in that it was to have its own Metro station. If Metro North was happening, which is is now not, or not for some considerable time to come. ABP are specific that there are significant issues if Metro North is not there.

Thornton is about 10 minutes by bus from DB Harristown Depot, so that's not exactly going to require too much work to set up routes to Thornton, and given how close it is to the airport, a Metro North spur to Thornton, or even a Luas to Thornton from Blanchardstown, also not that far away, either will work, given some positive thinking, and it would still be a fraction of the cost.
A feeder bus from the airport would not take long, and that's another easy one to do. A feeder from the centre of Dublin, via the port tunnel, and M50 will take no longer than it does now to get from Crumlin or Tallaght to Mater.

Agreed, Thornton doesn't have public transport NOW, it doesn't need it yet, but you can be sure that it was and is most certainly on the plan for the future, if it replaces Mountjoy, as was intended, or Mater, either way, there will be more than enough people wanting to get to and from the place to justify a regular service from all around the area, and it does have the advantage of a lack of congestion at peak periods, which if you're trying to get a sick child to the place, will be a distinct advantage.

The car era is almost over anyway. The petrol powered car that is, but there will be alternatives found, there will have to be, Ireland does not have the population density to be able to provide public transport to every village and boreen in the country, so some form of viable private transport system will continue to exist, it just won't be fossil fuel powered.

What's basically come out of the pot today is that ABP have rejected a very ambitious plan that in earlier times would probably have gone through on the nod, with some pressure from local politicians, but now, the harsh light of day and reality is looking at the problems that 1500 people a DAY will be trying to find parking in an area that's already saturated, or trying to get on to public transport that is under pressure, or already full because of the direction it's running in, and trying to move in one of the most badly congested areas of North Dublin, and that's not going to change any time soon, and it's not going to have Metro North to relieve that pressure.

The other aspect of that is that I for one would be less than happy to be having to take a sick child on a metro to get to a hospital appointment, whatever the cost, I'd be looking to use something a bit less likely to add additional infections (let alone stress) to an already non optimal scenario,

20 years ago, if you were told that Blanchardstown centre would be surrounded by development, you'd have laughed, but look at it now.

Thornton is in the middle of nowhere right now, but that could easily change, the big advantage is that the site is large enough for a full size adult unit, and a childrens unit, and probably other faciilities as well, like local accomodation for the students that are training at the site. It might not be perfect, it for sure is as perfect as the Mater site in many respects.

Let's see what the review of the project comes up with. If it takes too long, we will know who to blame.

bleg

Irish Steve wrote: »

The most expensive first. I will be prepared to bet that a new adult hospital, and a decent size one at that, as well as the NCH, could be built on the Thornton site for less than the NCH on it's own was going to cost at Mater, simply because the construction systems, and site work, would be way simpler, quicker and cheaper than having to go up 16 floors as was the case at Mater.

It's not as simple as this. Most of the cost involved is in kitting out the interior of the hospital. It's a complex problem and you're making out like the answer is black and white. It's not.

micropig

bleg wrote: »

It's not as simple as this. Most of the cost involved is in kitting out the interior of the hospital. It's a complex problem and you're making out like the answer is black and white. It's not.

A lot of high tech equipment, donated to hospitals by charities/fundraisers lie idle because no one is trained to use them. They are in storage disintegrating as we speak.

billybudd

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

one of the reasons for its rejection was the visual impact on the area

as if DCC care about the northside! they have always been anti north dublin and always will

that and the fact that the area in question is already an eye sore.

paulvcassidy

More money wasted at a time when the country can least afford it this time 36M and the Government's response, backed by Fianna Fail, is more of the same. Ramp up the very legislation which got us into the mess we're in the first place acts like the Strategic Infrastructure Act and in doing so face down the advice of An Bord Pleanala not some New Age tree-dweller types in the Glen of the Downs, not the Shell to Sea campaigners or the Tara-Skryne By-Pass protestors. The Bords views are definitive and unquestionably based on sound judgement. Despite the bold concept like design the proposed development, like the Dublin Corporation Offices at Woodquay, is totally out of place and out of context with the setting. So why insist on repeatedly despoiling the city center in planning and architectural terms? Is it the same old, same old, the fact that many of those in power and in the architectural and planning professions have more regard for Manchester than they do for their own capital city? In most discussions this ilk of opinion former cite Manchester as representing a model for the Republic to aspire to in terms of the modernity of its city center and the scale of population concentration. This constituency of red-necked decision makers have no regard for Dublin other than as a power center. They are equally indifferent to the notion of regional governance based on the provinces, virtually the only formula that unification could be realised through and the only context within which local government could be rationalised. Men like Bertie Ahern happily throw their lot in on the basis of keeping in with the various Mister Big's they suck upto and service. Did Fianna Fail deliberatley botch decentralisation merely using it as a rouse for shedding civil service jobs in the long run? Had they intended it to work would they have made such a hames of it? But quite apart from that virtually all the parent-child groups think the Matter site plan a bad idea. A Greenfield site off the M50 with a light rail connection is surely in order. Sounds a lot like Tallaght to me unless the project is used to part justify a rethink on Metro North. This is the first major debacle the government have gotten themselves into and Fianna Fail are encouraging them to drive deeper into the sh1tfest they designed. Professor Brendan Drumm will no doubt get a triple choc coated bonus with 50% extra kickbacks for his part in wasting 36M of tax payers money on the ill conceived plan. A convenient excuse for the Government to side step this 600M capital commitment in exchange for the consultants sticking their arm in for another 36M in fees. So sick children die as they have always done and life goes on regardless. The far more rational approach would have been to base the project off the M50 at a purpose built terminus on the Metro North. I am advised the money we are currently paying back on the Anglo Irish Bank debacle could have delivered fiber optic cable to every house in Ireland and criss-crossed the capital with light rail projects. But this is what we get more of the same old, same old. But after all that I ask myself what child dreams of being housed in a glass menagerie in the sky while dealing with a terminal illness? It sounds more to me like an architects dream than a child's dream. I think a disabled child would dream of being pushed around a pond in a park in her wheelchair to feed the ducks, the swans and fish for pinkeens. I think a little boy would rather watch some blokes playing a game of soccer than count cranes from his bedroom window. That a little garden of respite might be in order for the parents and perhaps a commemorative garden too. What about accommodation for visitors with ample opportunity for retail services etc? A special needs school perhaps with a special needs village attached? In short why spend all this money and think of no-one else's needs except the needs of the consultancy community that inspired or rather 'conspired', the project in the first instance? The truth is this was a crap plan from the outset and that only a medical consultant with his head jammed so far up his own rostrum that he couldn't tell ****e from shinola would have backed it in the first place. That consultant has a HSE webpage which merely says 'Ag teach go luath', - coming soon. Perhaps it ought read 'Ag imeacht go tapula' - leaving fast. His HSE page was last updated August 2010. Transparency where forth feckin art thou? See my Facebook page for the links: https://www.facebook.com/webpresenceme

44leto

I have never seen an issue with so many vested interests clogging any movement in this. From the consultants to the builders to the politicians and the patients representatives. So yay lets have another report and a quango about why they need another report.

I agree with the Tallagh proposal only out of accessibility and surrounding infrastructure. You have the Motorway access to every part of the country, a luas link, multiple B+Bs if needed and the Square shopping centre for whatever other business you may have while visiting.

The old Children's hospital is a traffic nightmare and not really that much around it.

Amirani

Tallaght or Beaumont would be far better locations in my opinion.

Biggins

amacachi wrote: »

Just out of interest Biggins, in the political party you support I didn't see anything about redundancies in the PS, just moving people around. Did you suggest the same things you're saying on this thread but it was decided by others not to have such policies for the party?

The policy document put out by the IDP is a 40+ page summary.
At present a good number of areas within it, are further being discussed and will be further expanded upon in the near future.

You can be assured that the matter of possible redundancies will be looked at further - with all sides of the debate on that being considered.

Lady Chatterton

Pat Kenny covered this item on Friday morning's radio programme, it might be worth a listen to his podcast .

Pat Kenny Radio Show - Friday 24th February 2012

New Children’s Hospital

On Thursday evening's Primetime programme, Dr. Finn Breathnach referred to an email his group, the New Children’s Hospital Alliance, received last year in a freedom of information request from the Department of Health.

The e mail made it clear that the final report of a review of controversial plans for the Children’s Hospital of Ireland, commissioned last May by Minister for Health Dr James Reilly, dropped a paragraph saying a green field site would be “the ideal location” for the project.

The email makes interesting reading in the light of the rejection of the mater site by An Bord Pleanala yesterday.

Dr Roisin Healy is a retired emergency consultant physician. She led the emergency department in Crumlin for over 20 years and she joined Pat on the programme.

Former CEO of the HSE, Professor Brendan Drumm also contributed to the programme.

paulvcassidy

MrsD007 wrote: »

Pat Kenny covered this item on Friday morning's radio programme, it might be worth a listen to his podcast .



Dr Roisin Healy is a retired emergency consultant physician. She led the emergency department in Crumlin for over 20 years and she joined Pat on the programme.

Former CEO of the HSE, Professor Brendan Drumm also contributed to the programme.

That pretty much sums it up. A greenfield site is plainly in order. I suspect the EU would allow the Irish government write off the Anglo debt allowing those annual payments form part of a national development plan designed to position our economy for recovery and sustainability.
Within that context we could use the national children's hospital campus project, of the scale discussed here, to justify a scaled down street level Metro North. The people of North County Dublin deserve and need at least a Luas-line equivalent for the north-side which would connect with the airport perhaps. Although it needs to be said Iarnrod Eireann maintain they could run a spur to the airport for 200M. So perhaps mixing incoming infections from the Airport with those travelling to and from Dublin on the same line as a national children's hospital complex is unwise.
Let's be bold and use this project as a major developmental impetus for Dublin. Lets tell Europe we're up to making the necessary adjustments to national taxation policy but that we need to commit the Anglo repayments to major infrastructural projects designed to lift the capital at least out of recession.
Add to that plan a national roll out of fiber optics cabling by a new national networks company - to include telecom, electric and gas networks - and we have a spring-board to recovery. This could be a case of turning a 'Blunder-cats blow', moment into an national 'Thunder-cats go', moment. Look for a 25% write-down from the consultants on the new project and get on with the new task asap. Will they turn their noses up at the notion of further consultancy fees in straightened times? I doubt it. Lets keep the good will of all concerned and move forward.

one foot in the grave

mikemac1 wrote: »

National Childrens Hospital, for everyone in Ireland

Put it out in Tallaght where it's easy to get to, better option then city centre but then Bertie was in power and the leader gets what he wants for his area

I don't see the objection to the height, sure Belfast City Hospital is high rise and nobody is bothered by it

I am puzzled as to why people keep suggesting Tallaght as an alternate site. If the Mater site does not go ahead (which would be a pity) then St James is the alternate. Tallaght does not have the the same breadth and depth of services as the Mater or James (or Beaumont).

Tallaght has an orthopaedic surgery team and work into stroke assessment and management. St James is responsible for severe paediatric burns management, houses the national bone marrow transplant unit, a major haematology unit and is the national maxillo-facial surgery centre.

The cardiothoracic surgeons in the Mater carry out paediatric cardiothoracic surgery in Crumlin. The Mater also carries out heart and lung transplants in adults, houses the national spinal injuries unit, has a child psychiatric unit and is a designated cancer care centre.

Siting the paediatric hospital at the Mater would place it between the neurosurgical and transplant teams in Beaumont Hospital and the haematology/radiotherapy and burns staff in St James Hospital thereby maximising access to the relevant off site expertise and utilizing the resources and expertise in the Mater.

one foot in the grave

44leto wrote: »

I have never seen an issue with so many vested interests clogging any movement in this. From the consultants to the builders to the politicians and the patients representatives. So yay lets have another report and a quango about why they need another report.

I agree with the Tallagh proposal only out of accessibility and surrounding infrastructure. You have the Motorway access to every part of the country, a luas link, multiple B+Bs if needed and the Square shopping centre for whatever other business you may have while visiting.

The old Children's hospital is a traffic nightmare and not really that much around it.

Two independent studies by leading international paediatricians recommend that a NCH is co-located beside an adult teaching hospital. Why? Because that practice has shown that the resources and expertise in the adult hospital can be used by the paediatric hospital. Having access to these resources leads to better outcomes for the sick children using the service.

Tallaght, Vincents and Blanchardstown do not offer the same breadth and depth of teriary services as the other Dublin hospitals looked at. If the Mater is not going ahead, St James is the other option.

one foot in the grave

MrsD007 wrote: »

Pat Kenny covered this item on Friday morning's radio programme, it might be worth a listen to his podcast .



Dr Roisin Healy is a retired emergency consultant physician. She led the emergency department in Crumlin for over 20 years and she joined Pat on the programme.

Former CEO of the HSE, Professor Brendan Drumm also contributed to the programme.

That e-mail said if a state of the art adult hospital with national specialities and and a maternity hospital were built alongside a NCH, then a greenfield site would be ideal. Dr Healy cleared that up yesterday.

paulvcassidy

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Two independent studies by leading international paediatricians recommend that a NCH is co-located beside an adult teaching hospital. Why? Because that practice has shown that the resources and expertise in the adult hospital can be used by the paediatric hospital. Having access to these resources leads to better outcomes for the sick children using the service.

Tallaght, Vincents and Blanchardstown do not offer the same breadth and depth of teriary services as the other Dublin hospitals looked at. If the Mater is not going ahead, St James is the other option.

This is what emerges in that Pat Kenny interview a copy of which I've posted up on this Podomatic link: http://webmaster1600.podomatic.com/entry/2012-02-25T13_13_01-08_00

The argument for a greenfield site seems obvious. That site ought to be on the North side taking advantage of the M50 and plans for a mass public transport system be it a Luas line extension, a spur off the Dublin-Belfast rail-line, or the now 'parked', Metro North proposal.

St. James is already overdeveloped and traffic into and out of that location is already congested.

one foot in the grave

paulvcassidy wrote: »

This is what emerges in that Pat Kenny interview a copy of which I've posted up on this Podomatic link: http://webmaster1600.podomatic.com/entry/2012-02-25T13_13_01-08_00

The argument for a greenfield site seems obvious. That site ought to be on the North side taking advantage of the M50 and plans for a mass public transport system be it a Luas line extension, a spur off the Dublin-Belfast rail-line, or the now 'parked', Metro North proposal.

St. James is already overdeveloped and traffic into and out of that location is already congested.

Best practice is to locate a National Children's Hospital beside an adult teaching hospital and a maternity hospital. If we don't do that we're half doing the job and failing to provide the best.

Mater or St James's or Beaumont are the only three hospitals in Dublin with the resources, expertise, research, specialities.

mikemac1

Was a site outside Dublin ever looked at?

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Best practice is to locate a National Children's Hospital beside an adult teaching hospital and a maternity hospital. If we don't do that we're half doing the job and failing to provide the best.

Cork University Hospital can provide this
Not a lot of expansion room but there is a park just up the road on Wilton Road that could be bought and built on