Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Resuming dialogue with the PTB
Options
Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
No, you're misremembering, and no, it wasn't in existance - that predates the 2006 act. The FCP didn't show up for several more years.Grizzly 45 wrote: »Hmmm.I Do remember a questionare form being bandied about here on boards when I first started posting here from the DOJ asking our opinion on things,and as far as I can see is this was a kiteflying exercise used to slam us and remove or restrict things WE were clued up about,and obviously didnt gel with DOJ/AGS!! At the time the FCP was in existance too.Shotgun slugs "we didnt know they existed until re read about them on boards.ie"
Not banned. And frankly, they're basicly .72 calibre bullets. How would it make sense to restrict rifles above .308 but allow 12ga slugs to be unrestricted?Semi auto rifles "There are people running around in Ireland with legally liscensed M16s/Ar15s"
And there still are, aren't there Grizz?
Yup, though to be fair, any normal clay pigeon shotgun (the ones with the sort-of pistol grip, ie. most shotguns out there today) were originally on the list as well, because the PTB had a dim view of these:The pistol gripped shotgun stock saga!!:rolleyes:.Obviously forgetting that there are distinctive pistol gripped pumps and semis used in trap shooting,that cost a few thousands in custom work.
And didn't realise that these have a pistol grip too:
That particular bullet was dodged, and you can still licence the ones the PTB had a dim view of anyway, they're not banned.
That one is about the best example I've heard so far, but as you said yourself, that one isn't all down to the PTB - IPSC didn't do itself any favours at the time, and I get the feeling that there are whole volumes missing from that story still that we'll hear one day.The entire IPSC disaster!!! While admittedly IPSC didn t do itself no favours with some of the scenarios.[Especially the swinging manhole cover stunt apprently:rolleyes:] There was more outright lies,chinese whispers and half truths flung around from both sides that in the end no one would know what was smoke or a mirror.End result a international sport banned here on the most spurious grounds and total heresay.:mad:
In the meantime, ITS is still up and running and was still represented at the FCP, the statute didn't ban IPSC by name and there was still an opening there to squeeze through, given time and work. No, not perfect; but I'll take a chance over no hope at all any day of the week. And honestly, if we'd handled things better, we'd never have run face-first into this particular problem.
The assurance was that if IPSA didn't close, all pistols would be banned.Lets not forget the "assurances " given by DOJ that if IPSA folded up all big calibe handguns would still be liscensed,otherwise ALL handguns would be banned!
IPSA closed, we still have air and smallbore and some fullbore pistols licenced, and we have a route to come back from where we are without needing a new firearms act.
It's not great Grizz, no question; but it could be so much worse.
Yeah, I'm not happy with that myself, but that's the Supers, not the FCP. And to be fair about it, the FPU have been doing a lot of work on this one - it's gotten better. And if we had the FCP going again, we could clean it up even more, like getting rid of that stupid 5-round limit (because it's got no logical reason to exist at all).And of course the famous approved olympic handgun list...Now taken as gospel and not a guideline with many Super.:mad:
Nothing. It's just that past experience says that that's not what they do, and that we always come off better in the medium to long term when we engage with them.In short while I agree that we have to talk to these people..But whats to stop them from ignoring our advice or problems and simply making more rods to beat us with from them?
It's not sexy. Nobody gets to issue press releases and take credit for sticking it to the man. But the job gets done, and 99% of the time, it's done quickly, quietly, without fuss or bother.
From the point of view of the egotists, that's not relevant, but for the rest of us, well, I don't know about you, but I just want to shoot. So quick, quiet, fuss-free, well that sounds pretty good to me.
Now put yourself in their shoes for a moment.I would have a very serious issue of trust with anyone on the opposite of the table..Not a good way to mutally negoiate an agreeable solution.
Court cases. Public castigation. Continually being thought of like this:
Does that sound conducive to a good working relationship to you?0 -
-
Advertisement
-
-
To be fair you're having to count almost 30 years of open paramilitary terrorism in our country to make up that 40 years; I'm just counting my years from 2001 onward, I'm ignoring the rest. And 30 years of open terrorism will have an impact on firearms legislation, that's just reality.Mr.Flibble wrote: »Over your 12 years, yes. Over my 40 years, hardly.
Only if you completely ignore everything I say bar three or four wordsAgreeing with me again
Those items were on the agenda. We just had other stuff on the agenda ahead of them.
And what do you think their job is?No. I think they ought to do their job. Commonsense & goodwill would be nice, but, as I've being trying to point out, I don't expect it.
They've said it explicitly, publicly, many, many times over the last few years - their job is not to develop our sports. That's our job. We have our needs, they have theirs, and the point of the FCP is to find a compromise that satisfies the needs of both parties.
And it was working. But the word is needs. Not wants. And some folk confuse the two and claim that confusion as proof it wasn't working. And they're wrong.
The FCP was the only real forum we've ever had for the shooting community to meet with the PTB. Other than that, we've had individual NGBs meeting individual chunks of the PTB (though not the AGS, normally - the FCP was the first time we had official, regular, purposeful contact with them that I can recall). But to get everyone talking? The FCP was the first successful example of that. (In fact, it's the only example I've ever heard of).I can't find where I mentioned the FCP.0 -
-
-
-
-
To be fair you're having to count almost 30 years of open paramilitary terrorism in our country to make up that 40 years; I'm just counting my years from 2001 onward, I'm ignoring the rest. And 30 years of open terrorism will have an impact on firearms legislation, that's just reality.
IIRC it was only about six or seven years. Also it's a shame that it seemed to have a more adverse effect on legislation here than where most of the terrorism was actually taking place.Only if you completely ignore everything I say bar three or four words
I know it's your instinct to argue with everything I say, but isn't the overall thrust of your argument to try and find points points of agreement to try & move forward? Isn't that better than nothing?Those items were on the agenda. We just had other stuff on the agenda ahead of them.
I'm unconvinced they couldn't have done a lot better.And what do you think their job is?
They've said it explicitly, publicly, many, many times over the last few years - their job is not to develop our sports.
I didn't say it was their job to develop our sport. I think firearms legislation (its formulation, implementation and enforcement) is their job. I think they ought to do it fairly and efficiently, and I think they've fallen short in that regard.That's our job. We have our needs, they have theirs, and the point of the FCP is to find a compromise that satisfies the needs of both parties.
....
The FCP was the only real forum we've ever had for the shooting community to meet with the PTB. Other than that, we've had individual NGBs meeting individual chunks of the PTB (though not the AGS, normally - the FCP was the first time we had official, regular, purposeful contact with them that I can recall). But to get everyone talking? The FCP was the first successful example of that. (In fact, it's the only example I've ever heard of).
Apart from once above, in response to you, I haven't mentioned the FCP. Why do you keep ranting on at me about it?0 -
Not banned. And frankly, they're basicly .72 calibre bullets. How would it make sense to restrict rifles above .308 but allow 12ga slugs to be unrestricted?
Unrifled barrel firing a lump of lead max range appx 100 meters in normal circumstances,more or less in the general direction of the target.Compared to rifle bullet,with three times the accruacy at the same distance??
Indeed they are..But was touch and go on that as well,and hate to say it but you have to be hardcore to try and get one.:pac:And there still are, aren't there Grizz?
You can agreed,but I was thinking more of these;Yup, though to be fair, any normal clay pigeon shotgun (the ones with the sort-of pistol grip, ie. most shotguns out there today) were originally on the list as well, because the PTB had a dim view of these:
And didn't realise that these have a pistol grip too:
That particular bullet was dodged, and you can still licence the ones the PTB had a dim view of anyway, they're not banned.
that is a 90% cheaper alternative to certain custom trap stocks out there.it doesnt fold,detach,telescope or come apart.Which MIGHT have some justification in being restricted..But this a solid stock...But makes a 3shot shell carrying gun restricted because of a prominent pistol grip.How daft is that??
That one is about the best example I've heard so far, but as you said yourself, that one isn't all down to the PTB - IPSC didn't do itself any favours at the time, and I get the feeling that there are whole volumes missing from that story still that we'll hear one day.
In the meantime, ITS is still up and running and was still represented at the FCP, the statute didn't ban IPSC by name and there was still an opening there to squeeze through, given time and work. No, not perfect; but I'll take a chance over no hope at all any day of the week. And honestly, if we'd handled things better, we'd never have run face-first into this particular problem.
The last underlined..How very true...BUT I cant see it making a comeback in the near future here due to the "dynamic clause" in the act.Which has also killed belive it or not biathalon shooting as well.As you move between[skiing,running,whatever] between targets,Not to mind biathalon was the original combat shooting,in the Russo /Finnish war of 1940.;)The assurance was that if IPSA didn't close, all pistols would be banned.
IPSA closed, we still have air and smallbore and some fullbore pistols licenced, and we have a route to come back from where we are without needing a new firearms act.
It's not great Grizz, no question; but it could be so much worse.
Way we understood it at that EGM,was it wasif we closed our big calibre liscenses would still be honoured in other disiplines as well...Need I go on??:rolleyes:
T'would be at least somthing.IF that was dealt with,five shot revolvers!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:Yeah, I'm not happy with that myself, but that's the Supers, not the FCP. And to be fair about it, the FPU have been doing a lot of work on this one - it's gotten better. And if we had the FCP going again, we could clean it up even more, like getting rid of that stupid 5-round limit (because it's got no logical reason to exist at all).It's not sexy. Nobody gets to issue press releases and take credit for sticking it to the man. But the job gets done, and 99% of the time, it's done quickly, quietly, without fuss or bother.
From the point of view of the egotists, that's not relevant, but for the rest of us, well, I don't know about you, but I just want to shoot. So quick, quiet, fuss-free, well that sounds pretty good to me.
Indeed it does ..In a perfect world.But I just feel like anything here in Ireland.Too much old greivances,grudges,ego,empire building ,point scoring,and whatever else will come back on both sides and off we go again.
?Now put yourself in their shoes for a moment.
Court cases. Public castigation. Continually being thought of like this:
Does that sound conducive to a good working relationship to you
Obviously not...but if the footwear fits..In certain cases?Which it has done betimes...What are we to think??And if they weren't illegal to hunt deer with here (unlike the way they're legal for that in the US, for example), they probably wouldn't be restricted because a stronger argument would have been made for them. But the ICPSA doesn't use slugs, and the NARGC doesn't use slugs, so who was there to make the case?
WA1500.Two disiplines requiring slugs and restricted type shotguns.:D
Skittle shoots have been done with them as well.That was the greatest craic I ever had in a long time here that match in Midlands.Pity that hasnt been kept going!
Just need people to get intrested.:(To be fair you're having to count almost 30 years of open paramilitary terrorism in our country to make up that 40 years; I'm just counting my years from 2001 onward, I'm ignoring the rest. And 30 years of open terrorism will have an impact on firearms legislation, that's just reality.
But even that shows BAD govt policy and thinking.Considering the TCO never even dented the intended targets,in aquiring within 12 months enough material to start a protracted war..By year ten of the campaign it should have been blatent this was a non happening event,and that the RA were well tooled up from the USA and later better by Libya.So what was the point on holding onto stuff??Considering that target shooting [of all kinds] was alive and well in NI even under the circumstances of barely open civil war.Not to mind the wrong kind of people had access to firearms on both sides,in various shades of legality,quasi legality,and blatant illegality.
Second bad deal by sucessive FF/FG govts in that time is no one gave any thought to the day that these guns must be returned to their owners when peace was declared or whatever..I mean was this file being used as the ministerial office door stopper?Or propping up the dodgy leg of the many justice ministers office desk???:rolleyes::rolleyes:
We now have a problem of somthing like over 2000 firearms in mostly the Curragh sitting there taking up space,costing tax payers money for the army to gaurd this stuff,and their owners are more than likely dead,senile,or have scattered into the four winds.
Would love to know any solutions to this one.Point is.Its too convient to blame all this on NI all the time as well.And what do you think their job is?
They've said it explicitly, publicly, many, many times over the last few years - their job is not to develop our sports. That's our job. We have our needs, they have theirs, and the point of the FCP is to find a compromise that satisfies the needs of both parties.
Their job is to simply keep as many leathl weapons from being in the hands of the Irish people!!:( Same statement can be found in as many words in the home office in the UK,the Interior ministery in Berlin,Italy,Spain and anywhere in the EU.Dress it up as you please it is now an EU policy.
They have stated this themselves.The protection of the saftey of the Irish State [NOTE not the people!]and its institutions,and public order is the guiding line on this. Thats their needs!!They dont really trust us at all.
Which brings it back neatly to where I was saying about a lack of trust on both sides???
No one is going to start a rebellion or coup de etat with400 handguns,a handful for semi auto rifles and a load of farmers rusty old single barrel shotguns,and proably a load of pikes and hurleys!!What is this?A Bananna republic????Ooops!:eek:"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement