Childrens' Hospital Planning Refusal [PR]

Tragedy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Pretending to know? I said that people who don't like it are generally anti-"high rise". I haven't seen one opinion on the building's design other than "monstrosity" and "huge" and "ugly" - so generally no opinion other than being against "big" buildings.

No Sir, you said they are either "generally anti-"high rise" or they are against the site and criticise the building. So you classified anyone who disagrees with you as either hating tall buildings or hating the Mater site(is this tied into your earlier silly claims that everyone who disagrees with the Mater site is a suburbanite and hates Inner City Dublin?).

You left no room for people who
A)Dislike the design but have no problem with high rise and don't approve of the site.
B)Dislike the design, have no problem with high rise and approve of the site.

You claimed they don't exist.

I happen to belong to A), I'm also a suburbanite who doesn't hate the inner city which again, according to you is seemingly impossible.

Dr Galen

What is it you don't like about the design?

FreudianSlippers

Tragedy wrote: »

No Sir, you said they are either "generally anti-"high rise" or they are against the site and criticise the building. So you classified anyone who disagrees with you as either hating tall buildings or hating the Mater site(is this tied into your earlier silly claims that everyone who disagrees with the Mater site is a suburbanite and hates Inner City Dublin?).

You left no room for people who
A)Dislike the design but have no problem with high rise and don't approve of the site.
B)Dislike the design, have no problem with high rise and approve of the site.

You claimed they don't exist.

I happen to belong to A), I'm also a suburbanite who doesn't hate the inner city which again, according to you is seemingly impossible.

I didn't know that I was assigning categories. I have yet to see a person who has a good reason for disliking the building other than it being a "monstrosity" or dislikes the site for a good reason other than its location (in the city & "ruining the aesthetic of North Dublin").

I don't think I ever said suburbanites "hate" the inner city either.

Why be so hypersensitive about it? Can't you just come on here like a rational human being and say "I don't fit in that category... I don't like the design because ____ and the location because ____ and here's why ______ would be a better site"?
Nope, instead you MUST get up to high do and act as if I'm assigning categories. Maybe deep breathing and some soothing rainforest music would help... :D

Tragedy

Dr Galen wrote: »

What is it you don't like about the design?

Aesthetically, I just completely dislike it. From the Cruise Liner sitting on a rectangle, to the half arsed attempt at making the Cruise Liner look organic/streamlined, I just do find it to look like a melted plastic box sitting on a concrete plinth. I don't have an issue with it being high rise, but I would be curious to see the footprint of the 16story high section compared with the footprint of skyscrapers from the UK/USA.

I can't comment on the design from a medical/operational perspective(can anyone, realistically?) but I do find the lack of a research centre and little provision for greenery/open spaces worrying.

FreudianSlippers

16 story is not "high rise"

There was quite a bit of "greenery/open spaces"




There was going to be a hospital school to facilitate undergraduate, postgraduate and continuing professional education facilities, a National Children's Research Centre and adjacent family housing provided by the Ronald McDonald House.


The more I think about it, the more I am ashamed to be from Dublin.

FreudianSlippers

Tragedy wrote: »

I can't comment on the design from a medical/operational perspective(can anyone, realistically?) but I do find the lack of a research centre and little provision for greenery/open spaces worrying.

Almost 450 beds in private single rooms with 13 new and child oriented operating theatres and onsite cardiac and neurosurgical critical care beds (62) with "soft-space" built into the site to allow for expansion post 2030 demand to over 500 beds.

Hell of a lot better than the nothing we're going to have until 2020 at the absolute earliest now.

Tragedy

I was told in 2010 by the CMRF that the Children's Research Centre would be remaining in Crumlin as there wasn't space for it at the Mater site. A google shows little except an FAQ on the NCH site saying it would be included and a press release from Bill Tormey saying it wouldn't be.

Can anyone provide something definitive either way?

FS, I know about the specifications vis-a-vis beds, operating theatres, parking spaces etc. However I don't believe you, I or in all likelihood, anyone on boards is sufficiently knowledgeable to analyse them compared to a competing design - if you get my meaning.

As for green spaces, I've seen the pictures too (:pac:) but I don't really think they're adequate, especially when one considers the recent headlines about winds+helicopter pad.

FreudianSlippers

Tragedy wrote: »

I was told in 2010 by the CMRF that the Children's Research Centre would be remaining in Crumlin as there wasn't space for it at the Mater site. A google shows little except an FAQ on the NCH site saying it would be included and a press release from Bill Tormey saying it wouldn't be.

Can anyone provide something definitive either way?

FS, I know about the specifications vis-a-vis beds, operating theatres, parking spaces etc. However I don't believe you, I or in all likelihood, anyone on boards is sufficiently knowledgeable to analyse them compared to a competing design - if you get my meaning.

As for green spaces, I've seen the pictures too (:pac:) but I don't really think they're adequate, especially when one considers the recent headlines about winds+helicopter pad.

It depends on what you mean; can all of these things be fit into a 4 floor sprawling greenfield site? Sure... but why?

Dr Galen

Tragedy wrote: »

Aesthetically, I just completely dislike it. From the Cruise Liner sitting on a rectangle, to the half arsed attempt at making the Cruise Liner look organic/streamlined, I just do find it to look like a melted plastic box sitting on a concrete plinth. I don't have an issue with it being high rise, but I would be curious to see the footprint of the 16story high section compared with the footprint of skyscrapers from the UK/USA.

I can't comment on the design from a medical/operational perspective(can anyone, realistically?) but I do find the lack of a research centre and little provision for greenery/open spaces worrying.

See, I'm the opposite to you.

I love the boat-like shape to the building. I like how it rises above the rectangular shapes below, almost like a ship cresting a wave of "old" Dublin below.

I would share your concerns on open spaces, but then taking your child to play in the 10th storey outdoor playground is pretty cool. I would like to see more ground level spaces though this is unlikely because of the site itself.

What do you think of the Gherkin in London? I guess it's personal taste really.

I should add however that I have no building or architectural training, or even close. I just like watching Grand Designs really.

As for the operational or medical design, well tbh I haven't seen very much on this at all. I will take a look and see what I think.

Tragedy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It depends on what you mean; can all of these things be fit into a 4 floor sprawling greenfield site? Sure... but why?

Why must it be 4 floors? Crumlin was essentially a greenfield site when it was constructed and parts of that were 6 stories high.

Again, I urge people to look at the design of the Central Manchester University Hospitals rather than falling back on stereotypes of "16 story cruise liner or a 4 floor sprawling monster" as being the only options available.

FreudianSlippers

Tragedy wrote: »

Why must it be 4 floors? Crumlin was essentially a greenfield site when it was constructed and parts of that were 6 stories high.

Again, I urge people to look at the design of the Central Manchester University Hospitals rather than falling back on stereotypes of "16 story cruise liner or a 4 floor sprawling monster" as being the only options available.

You know full well that if they put it on a greenfield it will be a maximum of 4 floors.

Tragedy

Dr Galen wrote: »

<snip>

I actually quite like the Gherkin. Also share your sentiments on Grand Designs. Usually I hate most of the designs on it, but I enjoy that people are passionate enough to plan, design and build something they love.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You know full well that if they put it on a greenfield it will be a maximum of 4 floors.

Why? There are numerous factors when building a hospital as to what size, shape, layout and height it should be (for example Manchester Royal Infirmary had a design brief that included a maximum 7 minute travel time between each department for staff.).

Why would I, or anyone else, know full well that the best design for a greenfield site would be 4 floors?

Dr Galen

You talking about this building Tragedy?

Tragedy

Talking about the whole complex (Adult, Maternity, Eye, Children's etc).

This is another view of part of the children's hospital:


This is another view:


AFAIK other parts of the complex or more or less high rise depending on their operational requirements and design briefs.

FreudianSlippers

I would call 6-7 floors low rise TBH. Pretty bland and unimaginative building. That's the usual shíte we build here though...

MadsL

I've asked some of this before, but;
A. How do you operate a helicopter pad with the existing fleet at 70m above a capital city?
B. How would these rooftop greenspaces be safe with active helicopter landings above them, particularly of the class required to operate this site?
C. Why was this helipad put on the renders when it was not submitted in the plans?
D. What is the point of a National hospital with no air ambulance access?




To address the accusation above, I'm not anti-rise; I'm anti-high rise where the context and urban fabric does not support it. Docklands or Heuston are fine for high-rise in Dublin as respected by the DEGW study in 2000. For some reason DCC wanted to push for a definition of high-rise as 50m or more, when a 30-40m building in inner-city Dublin would be one of the highest around.

Tragedy

I didn't claim it was high rise, I just showed it as an example of a hospital being built to a design brief and not to having only X floors.

FreudianSlippers

The highest parts on top of the oval are simply a green-roof, it's only the lower floor roofs that had park/green spaces. That's approximately the same hight as the current Mater and probably 8 floors below the helipad.

As for the rest of the questions, I don't really know off the top of my head. I'd have to look into it.

MadsL

My wife now works in Healthcare here in the US...
The medical company she works for just this year built this hospital (on a greenfield) but there is a interesting tour here on the psychological effects of hospital building design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYvv89nn-PU

rodento

MadsL wrote: »

I've asked some of this before, but;
A. How do you operate a helicopter pad with the existing fleet at 70m above a capital city?
B. How would these rooftop greenspaces be safe with active helicopter landings above them, particularly of the class required to operate this site?
C. Why was this helipad put on the renders when it was not submitted in the plans?
D. What is the point of a National hospital with no air ambulance access?
.

You can add why is day care situated in a different hospital, but I don't expect any answers here :rolleyes:

Dr Galen

Just in case anyone is interested I'm currently reading this

http://www.newchildrenshospitalplanningapplication.ie/documents/2ArchitecturalDesignStatementFINAL.pdf

Which is the Architectural Design Statement that went in as part of the application. Interesting stuff, and it does touch on some of the things that you have brought up Tragedy, in relation to patient/staff/equipment flow and rationales for certain things being in certain places.

Dr Galen

rodento wrote: »

You can add why is day care situated in a different hospital, but I don't expect any answers here :rolleyes:

Is day care situated somewhere else?

I've gotten this from their site, is it wrong?

The key elements of the new Children’s Hospital of Ireland on Eccles Street are:

445 beds (392 in-patient beds and 53 day care beds) to meet projected demand up to 2030;
All in-patient rooms will be single rooms with an en-suite, with a specific facility for overnight in-room accommodation for parents
Includes 62 critical care beds divided into intensive care and high dependency beds

MadsL

Dr Galen wrote: »

Just in case anyone is interested I'm currently reading this

http://www.newchildrenshospitalplanningapplication.ie/documents/2ArchitecturalDesignStatementFINAL.pdf

Which is the Architectural Design Statement that went in as part of the application. Interesting stuff, and it does touch on some of the things that you have brought up Tragedy, in relation to patient/staff/equipment flow and rationales for certain things being in certain places.

Thank you for the link...first skim a couple of things stand out.

1. Absolutely no reference to Air Ambulance access.
2. Biomass Heating was ruled out because of 'delivery' concerns and 'spatial considerations around fuel storage'.
3. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot on Design for infection control (am i missing another design statement somewhere?) sum total seems to be sensor taps...compare this with the intelligent design of the six surgery suites and supply room, and the individual infant/mother rooms at Rust Medical as posted above.

rodento

Dr Galen wrote: »

rodento wrote: »

You can add why is day care situated in a different hospital, but I don't expect any answers here :rolleyes:

Is day care situated somewhere else?

I've gotten this from their site, is it wrong?

The key elements of the new Children’s Hospital of Ireland on Eccles Street are:

445 beds (392 in-patient beds and 53 day care beds) to meet projected demand up to 2030;
All in-patient rooms will be single rooms with an en-suite, with a specific facility for overnight in-room accommodation for parents
Includes 62 critical care beds divided into intensive care and high dependency beds

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

But this was going to be a full children's hospital.

Guess you look at this

www.newchildrenshospital.ie/

The Children's Hospital of Ireland will also include an ambulatory and urgent care centre at Tallaght which will provide out-patient, day-care and emergency care services primarily for families in the south-side of the city.

If it's ment to be a one stop shop, why have parts of it else where, as day care is a very important aspect of a children's hospital

FreudianSlippers

No matter where the hospital is located, they will need urgent care centres in massively populous suburbs like Tallaght.

MadsL

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

No matter where the hospital is located, they will need urgent care centres in massively populous suburbs like Tallaght.

They have helicopter access at Tallaght too..

FreudianSlippers

MadsL wrote: »

They have helicopter access at Tallaght too..

AFAIK there was no helicopter access at the new children's site because they were putting it on the Mater site or else it's already on the new extension.

I can't find the document now, but I remember that the helipad was not feasible on the 16th floor, but it was planned on the 9th floor of the Mater adult's hospital.

max 73

How did a very important building such as this get refused yet liberty hall has been granted permission to demolish existing structure & go to 22 stories???

I suspect that the new building will bland & devoid of real architecture (am open to correction)

Dr Galen

rodento wrote: »

Guess you look at this

www.newchildrenshospital.ie/

The Children's Hospital of Ireland will also include an ambulatory and urgent care centre at Tallaght which will provide out-patient, day-care and emergency care services primarily for families in the south-side of the city.

If it's ment to be a one stop shop, why have parts of it else where, as day care is a very important aspect of a children's hospital

There is going to be two Day Care facilities as such. As I quoted above, there will be Day Care in the new hospital, and then outreach services in Tallaght.

Dr Galen

MadsL wrote: »

Thank you for the link...first skim a couple of things stand out.

1. Absolutely no reference to Air Ambulance access.
2. Biomass Heating was ruled out because of 'delivery' concerns and 'spatial considerations around fuel storage'.
3. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot on Design for infection control (am i missing another design statement somewhere?) sum total seems to be sensor taps...compare this with the intelligent design of the six surgery suites and supply room, and the individual infant/mother rooms at Rust Medical as posted above.

I also didn't see anything about helo access either, might have missed it. It is pretty important though.

Biomass heating? Why would that be a standout for you?

Agree on Infection Control design in that plan. There might be another document, but I can say that I know someone who is heavily involved in this and in the creation of shared services so it is being looked at. In a lot of detail, in conjunction with the new Mater buildings.

Can I just say, having worked in operating theatres, I hate the layout of the Rust centre ORs. Was the one thing that I saw in that video and didn't like tbh. Other than that, it looks like a good facility.