Greece: Parliament passes bill, Athens burns

Ostrom

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, that just moves the problem one stage back. Is it not the electorate's responsibility to be informed? If politics in Greece is as selectively issue-driven and localised as Ireland, is that the outcome of an imposed system or an expression of the preference of the Greek public? In Ireland it certainly seems to be an expression of preference, and I see no reason to assume differently in the case of Greece.

Unfortunately, this is not the case, and your expectations of the electorate, although desirable, are unrealistic. Electoral politics is not fought on concise argument over the relative technical merits of libreralisation / national debt financing - I would suggest the majority public (despite what I believe to be their responsibility) have neither the time, nor the interest, and in certain cases the capacity to pick through the specifics of complex policy implications and financial intruments. In either case, the question of imposition/expression (and consequently, culpability) falsely relies on the assumption that both parties are mutually informed.

Electoral politics is structured in such a way as to obscure the long term implications both of party policy and trans-national agreements (e.g. the tone and standard of the Lisbon treaty debates). Politics is instead pitched around short-term local issues, and agreements/policies which establish far-reaching long term economic and social precedents are depicted in terms of short-term, appealing benefits such as growth, nondescript mechanisms of job creation - or selective, ideologically appealling issues. If you want to be really instrumentalist-conspiratorial about it, it is probably in the active interests of policymakers to reduce complexity as such, but the overall concentration of wealth engendered by liberalisation suggests a more concrete explanation.

This does not absolve the public of a responsibility to be informed, but it is an awfully difficult thing to accomplish when faced with a political system dependent on presenting politics around issues of selective appeal for its own preservation.

Scofflaw wrote: »

There are two problems there: first, that if the majority electorate benefited from the borrowing and spending that led to the austerity, and voted for parties that did the borrowing and spending without asking too many questions about where the money came from, it's hard to call imposition of austerity at the same general level inequitable.

Second, with respect to the internal distribution of the burdens of austerity - again, the problem here would seem to be that the Greek public accepted the buying off of certain power blocs and corporate interests within Greek society during the good times, and are now stuck with the entrenched mechanisms of inequity that created. Again, that's similar to Ireland - we allowed vested interests to be bought off during the boom to give us a quiet life, and are now outraged when they defend their buy-off at a time when action by those strengthened interests would be potentially crippling - a bit of reaping what one sowed.

Approaching the question of equity from another direction - assuming the complicity of the Greek public in policies to their majority favour, should this not imply a similar equitable distribution of gain throughout the growth years? ILO rankings suggest aggregate Greek income levels are modestly comparable to other EU-15, despite recording consistently above-average (above eu15) scores on poverty risk measures, and displaying income inequality levels comparable to others of similar UNDP HDI level*. Yet the burden of austerity, as with Ireland, relies on inducing further upward transfers with little explicit discussion of the net beneficiaries, nor a balanced discussion of who should be expected to bear the brunt of the tax burden.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, though, I'm not being offered much in the way of economic roots as opposed to national particularism as an explanation for the particular form of the crisis in Greece. It seems rather more the case that Greece used the market perception of being eurozone-backed to go on a borrowing spree, and used the proceeds partly to pretend to a level of public wealth that their economy couldn't actually support, partly to sustain their arms race with their much larger eastern neighbour, and partly to buy off potentially divisive forces within Greek society by ensuring that there was a superfluity of pork for everyone.

*Let me know if you want specific links - I'm referring to the UNDP table of gini coefficients, and the eu-15 poverty measures are from eurostat

oscarBravo

efla wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is not the case, and your expectations of the electorate, although desirable, are unrealistic.

[...]

Electoral politics is structured in such a way as to obscure the long term implications both of party policy and trans-national agreements...

This does not absolve the public of a responsibility to be informed, but it is an awfully difficult thing to accomplish when faced with a political system dependent on presenting politics around issues of selective appeal for its own preservation.

At the risk of seeming argumentative, it looks to me like you want to eat your cake and have it too. This is actually encapsulated in your opening point in this thread:

efla wrote: »

A public demanding representation (i.e. a refletion of their collective will, as devolved to their elected representatives) over a crisis not of their own making?

If it's unfair to expect the electorate to have a full understanding of all the complexities facing the government they elect, then the corollary is that it falls to government to fill in the gaps and act on its own initiative, even if that means doing things that fall outside the expectations of the under-informed electorate.

The alternative - reflecting the collective (albeit uninformed) will of the public - relieves the burden from both electorate and elected. It's too much to ask that the electorate fully understand the issues, but the government - of whom, presumably, it's not too much to ask - are not allowed to operate outside the mandate of the mob.

It doesn't add up for me, I'm afraid.

Ostrom

oscarBravo wrote: »

At the risk of seeming argumentative, it looks to me like you want to eat your cake and have it too. This is actually encapsulated in your opening point in this thread:

If it's unfair to expect the electorate to have a full understanding of all the complexities facing the government they elect, then the corollary is that it falls to government to fill in the gaps and act on its own initiative, even if that means doing things that fall outside the expectations of the under-informed electorate.

Not at all, I appreciate the discussion. It is not a question of allocating specific responsibility or culpability, my concern is that this appeal to collective culpability ignores systemic deficiencies in representation. The result, ultimately, is inequality of both material outcome and the consequent austerity burden which is in turn normalised by (falsely) appealling to the idea that (a) the electorate had reasonable scope to intervene, and (b) gains were evenly distributed as a result of 'rational' calculation on the part of the voting public

oscarBravo wrote: »

The alternative - reflecting the collective (albeit uninformed) will of the public - relieves the burden from both electorate and elected. It's too much to ask that the electorate fully understand the issues, but the government - of whom, presumably, it's not too much to ask - are not allowed to operate outside the mandate of the mob.

It doesn't add up for me, I'm afraid.

It would be sufficient merely to acknowledge that there are numerous elements complicating the question of collective responsibility. As per my original post, my concern rests with the manner in which these factors (i.e. the nature of electoral politics, complexities of policy, difficulties in long-term prediction) serve to undermine representation - arguably across states other than Greece - and how these complexities are in turn reduced to a question of national character in public discussion. It does nothing to address the real consequences of diminished representation, and inhibits evidence-based discussion.

Einhard

Crosswind wrote: »

You can blame the Greeks for being stupid enough to believe the two parties that govern the country during the last 30 years, but that's about it.

Tax evasion and corruption is idespread across Greek society. It appears a systemic aspect of Greek culture. Are they not the responsibility of the Greek people too?

Dannyboy83

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46312376/Greece_Keeps_Promising_Reform_but_Few_Believe_It
The shadow economy still accounts for more than a quarter of the 220-billion-euro official output — the highest proportion in the euro zone. Annual tax evasion stands at 40 billion to 45 billion euros, said Nikos Lekkas, the number two official in Greece's Financial and Economic Crime unit.

If you look up the definition of "smoking gun", you ought to find the above quote.

djpbarry

efla wrote: »

...I would suggest the majority public (despite what I believe to be their responsibility) have neither the time, nor the interest, and in certain cases the capacity to pick through the specifics of complex policy implications and financial intruments.

I think most people would agree with you. However, we're not talking complex financial instruments here, we're talking basic arithmetic. If I was living in a state where generous welfare was the norm, but I and pretty much everyone I knew was paying feck-all tax, I think we'd all be thinking there was something amiss.

efla wrote: »

Approaching the question of equity from another direction - assuming the complicity of the Greek public in policies to their majority favour, should this not imply a similar equitable distribution of gain throughout the growth years? ILO rankings suggest aggregate Greek income levels are modestly comparable to other EU-15...

Considering other EU-15 nations have functioning economies, that's not really a valid comparison.

Crosswind

Einhard wrote: »

Tax evasion and corruption is idespread across Greek society. It appears a systemic aspect of Greek culture. Are they not the responsibility of the Greek people too?

I wouldn't call it systemic aspect of Greek culture as the vast majority of people being taxed (public and private sector employees, pensioners) simply cannot evade their taxes the way the system works. Tax evasion is widely spread among large organisations and there are not many of those in Greece. Not sure where that 50bn comes from, but it's definitely not the case.

meglome

Crosswind wrote: »

I wouldn't call it systemic aspect of Greek culture as the vast majority of people being taxed (public and private sector employees, pensioners) simply cannot evade their taxes the way the system works. Tax evasion is widely spread among large organisations and there are not many of those in Greece. Not sure where that 50bn comes from, but it's definitely not the case.

The Greek government estimates that there is currently 40-45 billion euro in tax evasion.

Crosswind

meglome wrote: »

The Greek government estimates that there is currently 40-45 billion euro in tax evasion.

As usual, Greek dictators (sorry, government) are talking out of their a$$es.

meglome

Crosswind wrote: »

As usual, Greek dictators (sorry, government) are talking out of their a$$es.

So we should ignore all the many reports about tax evasion from many different sources? We should ignore the official government statistics about how many people claim to be earning x amount?

While I don't necessarily believe the Greek government I certain don't believe you. You got any evidence?

Crosswind

meglome wrote: »

So we should ignore all the many reports about tax evasion from many different sources?

We should ignore the official government statistics about how many people claim to be earning x amount?

While I don't necessarily believe the Greek government I certain don't believe you. You got any evidence?

Well, you can believe that Elvis is still alive and ice-skating in the surface of Mars for all I care. Certainly more sensible than believing the same politicians who some months before being elected their motto was "We have money, a load of money", the same politicians who lied their way into the euro zone and and and...I have dozens of examples if you're interested.
--EDIT-- Forgot to add that on their lists for tax evaders they have companies that went bankrupt in the 80s...

oscarBravo

Crosswind wrote: »

meglome wrote: »

You got any evidence?

Well, you can believe that Elvis is still alive and ice-skating in the surface of Mars for all I care.

That would be a "no", then.

Crosswind

oscarBravo wrote: »

That would be a "no", then.

Sure

The Greek government recognizes that tax evasion and the system of tax collection has been a long-term problem. The finance ministry estimates that it is owed ?40 billion ($56 billion) in uncollected taxes going back decades, but now thought impossible to recover due to bankruptcies and deaths.

Some more

Tax dodging costs Greece more than $20 billion per year


So, is it 40bn in total, 20bn/yr or what?

oscarBravo

Crosswind wrote: »

So, is it 40bn in total, 20bn/yr or what?

I don't know, but you're not really getting the "evidence" thing.

You claim the Greek government are exaggerating the scale of tax evasion. This implies that you know the scale of tax evasion. Please quantify the scale of tax evasion as you understand it, with reference to reliable sources.

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

I wouldn't call it systemic aspect of Greek culture as the vast majority of people being taxed (public and private sector employees, pensioners) simply cannot evade their taxes the way the system works. Tax evasion is widely spread among large organisations and there are not many of those in Greece.

That's not actually true. The vast bulk of tax evasion comes from small businesses and the self employed; for example it is commonplace to pay for a visit to a doctor in cash, which then ends up never appearing on the books. This extends to employees in many small firms, where they are paid either partially in cash or even do not appear on the books as employees at all. So tax evasion is systemic in Greece, just as it was in Ireland twenty or thirty years ago.

Of course, state employees cannot avoid the punitive tax levels, but then again you need to consider the state employment system in Greece. Bad public sector pay and high taxes are not so bad if you have 14 or more monthly pay cheques in the year and your hours are essentially part time, so that you can go off and earn some real money in one of those aforementioned cash-in-hand jobs, then retire on 3/4 salary long before you're sixty.

One of my favourite examples is that of state rail (the OSE) which, at least up until recently, literally had more employees than passengers. So inefficient was it that a former Greek minister had publicly admitted that it would be cheaper to send everyone by taxi than train.

I do sympathize for the plight of many Greeks in the current crisis. However, to turn around and blame the EU or politicians (that they elected) for the tax evasion they were complicit with on a daily basis or the blatant overspending in the public sector, abdicates all social responsibility; and is not dissimilar to the present Irish fashion to solely blame banks and Fianna Fail for the property bubble.

KIERAN1

George Carlin, in my view was one of the greatest minds of the 21st century and a damn fine comedian to boot.

This short video from Carlin from the 80's or 90's is a description of the the real reality we find ourself's in, not the fictitious fascade portrayed to us, by our so called media and politicians.

RIP-George

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ&feature=fvst

Crosswind

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't know, but you're not really getting the "evidence" thing.

You claim the Greek government are exaggerating the scale of tax evasion. This implies that you know the scale of tax evasion. Please quantify the scale of tax evasion as you understand it, with reference to reliable sources.

No one knows the exact number of tax evasion. It's not a thing that can be measured, only estimated. So, according to Greece's GDP, GDP growth, income tax as a percent of GDP and according to EU's average income tax as percent of GDP it can't be 40bn/year. Maybe a bit more than half, but certainly not 40bn.
If there is a more reliable methodology to find a more approximate number, i'm all ears.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's not actually true. The vast bulk of tax evasion comes from small businesses and the self employed; for example it is commonplace to pay for a visit to a doctor in cash, which then ends up never appearing on the books. This extends to employees in many small firms, where they are paid either partially in cash or even do not appear on the books as employees at all. So tax evasion is systemic in Greece, just as it was in Ireland twenty or thirty years ago.

As i wrote in a previous post, the tax system itself promotes tax evasion. You can't tax businesses up to 60%, especially these times. (to be cont'd)

Of course, state employees cannot avoid the punitive tax levels, but then again you need to consider the state employment system in Greece. Bad public sector pay and high taxes are not so bad if you have 14 or more monthly pay cheques in the year and your hours are essentially part time, so that you can go off and earn some real money in one of those aforementioned cash-in-hand jobs, then retire on 3/4 salary long before you're sixty.

14 monthly pay cheques, but no bonus as in other countries, so basically the same thing

One of my favourite examples is that of state rail (the OSE) which, at least up until recently, literally had more employees than passengers. So inefficient was it that a former Greek minister had publicly admitted that it would be cheaper to send everyone by taxi than train.

Well, public services are generally like that. They have to serve the public even if they have no profit. For example, you have a small mountain village of 100 residents that has no electricity or phone lines. Would you leave them without phone or heating just because the installation costs would be higher than potential income?
Concerning OSE, yes they've done the usual thing (ie hiring the party members)

I do sympathize for the plight of many Greeks in the current crisis. However, to turn around and blame the EU or politicians (that they elected) for the tax evasion they were complicit with on a daily basis or the blatant overspending in the public sector, abdicates all social responsibility; and is not dissimilar to the present Irish fashion to solely blame banks and Fianna Fail for the property bubble.

We actually blame all who deserve to be blamed (including ourselves)
Anyways, i'll try to reply in more details (especially on your first part) a bit later. I have a 3yr old here that tries to power off the laptop

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

As i wrote in a previous post, the tax system itself promotes tax evasion. You can't tax businesses up to 60%, especially these times. (to be cont'd)

Nonsense. That cannot be used as a justification for tax evasion any more than "I was abused a child" excuses child abuse in adulthood.

14 monthly pay cheques, but no bonus as in other countries, so basically the same thing

Most people in jobs in other countries actually don't get bonuses, let alone two month's salary worth of bonuses. Indeed, do civil servants normally get bonuses?

Well, public services are generally like that. They have to serve the public even if they have no profit. For example, you have a small mountain village of 100 residents that has no electricity or phone lines. Would you leave them without phone or heating just because the installation costs would be higher than potential income?
Concerning OSE, yes they've done the usual thing (ie hiring the party members)

Again this does not excuse the shear scale of waste which clearly is not designed to "serve the public" as much as create artificial employment for some of them.

We actually blame all who deserve to be blamed (including ourselves)

You'll find a few threads here where more than a few people don't seem to be able to accept any blame for Ireland's situation.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nonsense. That cannot be used as a justification for tax evasion any more than "I was abused a child" excuses child abuse in adulthood.

I take it that despite your username, you never lived in Greece. Try to work there even for a while and we'll see if it's nonsense.

Most people in jobs in other countries actually don't get bonuses, let alone two month's salary worth of bonuses. Indeed, do civil servants normally get bonuses?

Yes, they do.
Not sure what you mean with your last sentence.

Again this does not excuse the shear scale of waste which clearly is not designed to "serve the public" as much as create artificial employment for some of them.

Artificial employment is used by several countries, including Japan. It can be an excellent tool if used correctly. Apparently in Greece it wasn't.

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

I take it that despite your username, you never lived in Greece. Try to work there even for a while and we'll see if it's nonsense.

Would you care to respond with an argument rather than a cheap dismissal?

Yes, they do.

Prove it - you've stated a 'fact' and as has been pointed out you're not good at backing them up, so I challenge you to give evidence of this. Certainly in my experience, bonuses are not all that common.

Not sure what you mean with your last sentence.

How many civil servants get bonuses? Especially bonuses equivalent to two month's salary?

Artificial employment is used by several countries, including Japan. It can be an excellent tool if used correctly. Apparently in Greece it wasn't.

Artificial employment is an excellent tool if resources are limitless - or at least if you're sitting on a lot of oil. In the long run they are the unsustainable tool of an economic system that went bankrupt 25 odd years ago.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

Would you care to respond with an argument rather than a cheap dismissal?

No problem. We'll go set by step as it cannot be answered in a single post. Hypothetically, what kind of business would you like to open in Greece?

Prove it - you've stated a 'fact' and as has been pointed out you're not good at backing them up, so I challenge you to give evidence of this. Certainly in my experience, bonuses are not all that common.

Funny how your opinion is automatically a fact, while i have to provide facts backing up my opinion. I guess it has to do with post count :rolleyes:
Btw, what is the 'fact' i was unable to back up?

How many civil servants get bonuses? Especially bonuses equivalent to two month's salary?

Apparently you have no idea that it isn't actually a bonus. It's just the yearly salary being paid in 14 instalments. Always has been like that despite unions trying to change it to the other European countries standards. The funny thing is that even many Greeks believe that it's actually a bonus.

Artificial employment is an excellent tool if resources are limitless - or at least if you're sitting on a lot of oil. In the long run they are the unsustainable tool of an economic system that went bankrupt 25 odd years ago.

A bit more than that. As soon as tying currency to gold was abandoned, it was the end of this system.

djpbarry

Crosswind wrote: »

Funny how your opinion is automatically a fact, while i have to provide facts backing up my opinion. I guess it has to do with post count :rolleyes:
Btw, what is the 'fact' i was unable to back up?

You're claiming that it's common practice for people in European countries to receive bonuses equivalent to 2 months' salary - that is complete and utter nonsense.

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

No problem. We'll go set by step as it cannot be answered in a single post. Hypothetically, what kind of business would you like to open in Greece?

When I suggested you respond with an argument, it was to my point that one cannot use high tax levels as a justification for anti-social behaviour, so please do not change the subject.

Funny how your opinion is automatically a fact, while i have to provide facts backing up my opinion. I guess it has to do with post count :rolleyes:

Then don't take what I said as a 'fact', but that does not mean that what you have suggested is in any way true. What you have claimed is that "14 monthly pay cheques, but no bonus as in other countries, so basically the same thing" - for this to be true, it would mean:

• Bonuses are standard in other countries.
• Bonuses are the equivalent of two months salary.
• Public sector workers get bonuses.

I would challenge the veracity of all of the above three points - can you back them up please?

Btw, what is the 'fact' i was unable to back up?

That the levels of tax evasion in Greece are much lower than government estimates. Other than not presenting any evidence to contradict the Greek government's view, you eventually backtracked by claiming that the level was un-knowable - even though you apparently know it to be much lower than the Greek government's estimate.

Apparently you have no idea that it isn't actually a bonus. It's just the yearly salary being paid in 14 instalments.

Sorry, but you're the one who suggested they were bonuses, not me.

The practice of a 13th month is an old one in continental Europe, although it is falling out of favour. Most recently it has been used as a means to avoid budget restrictions, which has obviously gotten out of control in Greece as there are roles that will even get 18 months pay.

Always has been like that despite unions trying to change it to the other European countries standards. The funny thing is that even many Greeks believe that it's actually a bonus.

Naturally anyone who's ever worked under such a system, from experience, will end up viewing it as a bonus.

The Problem is that the Greek civil service is overpaid, relative to the Greek private sector and certainly given their hours and conditions of work. That an extra month's salary or bonus or whatever is used to overpay them is not really that important, only that it is and the Greeks cannot afford it any more.

A bit more than that. As soon as tying currency to gold was abandoned, it was the end of this system.

When, in 1931? 1971? And how is this a rebuttal to my point that artificial employment is an excellent tool only if resources are limitless? You do know that both the UK and US gold standards failed because resources are not limitless?

The Corinthian

djpbarry wrote: »

You're claiming that it's common practice for people in European countries to receive bonuses equivalent to 2 months' salary - that is complete and utter nonsense.

Naturally it's nonsense, but that's because Crosswind's comparison was nonsense in the first place. In reality, it's simply a tool to 'cook the books'; monthly salary (which remains the most common means of measuring salary, over annual salary, in continental Europe) remains in budget and instead increases that go over budget are added to hypothetical additional months.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

When I suggested you respond with an argument, it was to my point that one cannot use high tax levels as a justification for anti-social behaviour, so please do not change the subject.

Not changing the subject at all. I'm trying to prove to you how a business cannot survive without tax evading in Greece. Care to continue?

Then don't take what I said as a 'fact', but that does not mean that what you have suggested is in any way true. What you have claimed is that "14 monthly pay cheques, but no bonus as in other countries, so basically the same thing" - for this to be true, it would mean:

• Bonuses are standard in other countries.
• Bonuses are the equivalent of two months salary.
• Public sector workers get bonuses.

I would challenge the veracity of all of the above three points - can you back them up please?

I wouldn't know about the public sector in other countries, but from my experience working in 3 countries (France, UK and Ireland) the majority of my my acquaintances working on the private sector get yearly bonuses and they're not executives.

That the levels of tax evasion in Greece are much lower than government estimates. Other than not presenting any evidence to contradict the Greek government's view, you eventually backtracked by claiming that the level was un-knowable - even though you apparently know it to be much lower than the Greek government's estimate.

I already mentioned how tax evasion is estimated. Now, I also gave a couple of links having quotes from the same source (Greek government) mentioning three completely different sums. Can you back up the sum you believe is correct?

Sorry, but you're the one who suggested they were bonuses, not me.

Yes, my bad here. Not bonuses.

The practice of a 13th month is an old one in continental Europe, although it is falling out of favour. Most recently it has been used as a means to avoid budget restrictions, which has obviously gotten out of control in Greece as there are roles that will even get 18 months pay.


Naturally anyone who's ever worked under such a system, from experience, will end up viewing it as a bonus.

What roles are you referring to?

The Problem is that the Greek civil service is overpaid, relative to the Greek private sector and certainly given their hours and conditions of work. That an extra month's salary or bonus or whatever is used to overpay them is not really that important, only that it is and the Greeks cannot afford it any more.

Overpaid relative to the private sector, still way below a decent salary. Highest salary (25 years experience/ MSc degree) is 2700 gross/month. Entry level is 780 gross/ month. Those salaries were before the new austerity measures.

When, in 1931? 1971? And how is this a rebuttal to my point that artificial employment is an excellent tool only if resources are limitless? You do know that both the UK and US gold standards failed because resources are not limitless?

No need to be defensive here. I didn't disagree. Just pointing out that the failure of the system started earlier than 25 years ago.

Dannyboy83

Crosswind wrote: »

I already mentioned how tax evasion is estimated. Now, I also gave a couple of links having quotes from the same source (Greek government) mentioning three completely different sums. Can you back up the sum you believe is correct?

I don't think the precise figure even matters.

The point you seem to miss is that there is overwhelming tax evasion in Greece and it's indisputable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?pagewanted=all
In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

It doesn't actually matter if Greece has the Euro or the Drachma.
They are doomed either way, unless they can learn to pay to tax.

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

Not changing the subject at all. I'm trying to prove to you how a business cannot survive without tax evading in Greece. Care to continue?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8509244.stm

I wouldn't know about the public sector in other countries, but from my experience working in 3 countries (France, UK and Ireland) the majority of my my acquaintances working on the private sector get yearly bonuses and they're not executives.

So other than anecdotal evidence, which I could easily counter, on one of those points, you can't actually respond to the other two at all.

I already mentioned how tax evasion is estimated. Now, I also gave a couple of links having quotes from the same source (Greek government) mentioning three completely different sums. Can you back up the sum you believe is correct?

Where have you demonstrated that it is much lower?

What roles are you referring to?

I came across it in der Spiegel a few months back, but will admit that it was an unusual case.

Overpaid relative to the private sector, still way below a decent salary. Highest salary (25 years experience/ MSc degree) is 2700 gross/month. Entry level is 780 gross/ month. Those salaries were before the new austerity measures.

Here's where cooking the books kicks in. 2.700 gross/month is actually 3.150 p.m. in a 14 month year. Now that may also not be a huge amount, but you also have to consider the cost of living which is considerably lower in Greece.

But in fairness (I have to correct myself), it's not even a question of being overpaid. The main problem with the Greek public sector is it's bloated. The Greeks can't afford to prop up employment with 'artificial employment', as you call it, plain and simple. There are only two solutions to this; fewer people or lower salaries.

No need to be defensive here. I didn't disagree. Just pointing out that the failure of the system started earlier than 25 years ago.

I'm not getting defensive I'm simply pointing out that you don't seem to have a grasp on basic economic theory. What you suggested makes no sense.

And the system I cited that failed, 25 years ago or so, that thought artificial employment was "an excellent tool" was actually communism.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8509244.stm

So other than anecdotal evidence, which I could easily counter, on one of those points, you can't actually respond to the other two at all.

Where have you demonstrated that it is much lower?

Could easily say the same thing, but at least i bothered to demonstrate how tax evasion is estimated a few posts back. Can't say the same thing for you as your proof was...what exactly? So, are we going to open a business in Greece?

I came across it in der Spiegel a few months back, but will admit that it was an unusual case.

...

Here's where cooking the books kicks in. 2.700 gross/month is actually 3.150 p.m. in a 14 month year. Now that may also not be a huge amount, but you also have to consider the cost of living which is considerably lower in Greece.

Apart from rent, what else is lower in Greece? Petrol is higher, basic things like grocery are higher. Even a cappuccino is around 5€.

But in fairness (I have to correct myself), it's not even a question of being overpaid. The main problem with the Greek public sector is it's bloated. The Greeks can't afford to prop up employment with 'artificial employment', as you call it, plain and simple. There are only two solutions to this; fewer people or lower salaries.

Can you prove that it's bloated please?

I'm not getting defensive I'm simply pointing out that you don't seem to have a grasp on basic economic theory. What you suggested makes no sense.

And the system I cited that failed, 25 years ago or so, that thought artificial employment was "an excellent tool" was actually communism.

My exact words were "It can be an excellent tool if used correctly. Apparently in Greece it wasn't.".Don't see where you disagree with that.

Crosswind

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't think the precise figure even matters.

The point you seem to miss is that there is overwhelming tax evasion in Greece and it's indisputable.

I don't think I ever disagreed with that. My disagreement is on the amount of tax evasion.

It doesn't actually matter if Greece has the Euro or the Drachma.
They are doomed either way, unless they can learn to pay to tax.

Well, they're doomed because austerity measures don't bring growth. IMF failed everywhere it went.
They're also doomed because while all the funds will be used to repay old loans, they're given with the promise that Greece will buy German and French weapon systems (Tanks/Subs from the Germans and Frigates from the French). So, even less money for growth, health, education etc.
They would be in a better position though by using their own currency.