Greece: Parliament passes bill, Athens burns

Scofflaw

(Reuters) - Greece's parliament approved a deeply unpopular austerity bill Monday to secure a second EU/IMF bailout and avoid national bankruptcy, as buildings burned across central Athens and violence spread around the country.

Cinemas, cafes, shops and banks were set ablaze in central Athens and black-masked protesters fought riot police outside parliament before lawmakers voted on the package that demands deep pay, pension and job cuts -- the price of a 130 billion euro ($172 billion) bailout needed to keep the country afloat.

State television reported the violence spread to the tourist islands of Corfu and Crete, the northern city of Thessaloniki and towns in central Greece. Police said 150 shops were looted in the capital and 34 buildings set ablaze.

Altogether 199 of the 300 lawmakers backed the bill, but 43 deputies from the two parties in the government of Prime Minister Lucas Papademos, the socialists and conservatives, rebelled by voting against It. They were immediately expelled by their parties.

OK, so widescale protests & rioting on the one hand, party defections on the other, but still passed by a two-thirds majority. And the reaction of the rest of the eurozone:

Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- European finance chiefs get the second chance in a week to pull Greece back from the brink of collapse after lawmakers in Athens approved the austerity measures demanded for a financial lifeline.

Greece “will be saved in one way or another,” German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told newspaper Welt am Sonntag yesterday, though the country must “do its homework.”

Euro-area finance ministers will convene in Brussels on Feb. 15 in an extraordinary meeting that was set after they declined in a special session on Feb. 9 to ratify the 130 billion-euro ($172 billion) package. Frustrated after two years of missed budget targets, the European authorities demanded Greek officials put their verbal commitments into law.

It's still to be voted on by the rest of the eurozone - that comes on Feb 27th, so there's still time for the applecart to be upset between now and then.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dirk Gently

looks like the state is losing the support of the police too with the police union threatening to arrest officials for "...blackmail, covertly abolishing or eroding democracy and national sovereignty" and also indicating that they wont stand against their fellow protesting citizens much longer.

Judging by the scale of the constant sustained protests ongoing for several years and yesterdays strikes and rioting it's hard to see how any government supporting the EU package will be able to realistically govern much longer.

Dannyboy83

Comparing this
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/10/us-greece-police-idUSTRE8190UC20120210

with this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007949/The-Big-Fat-Greek-Gravy-Train-A-special-investigation-EU-funded-culture-greed-tax-evasion-scandalous-waste.html

It seems the Greek police have taken aim at the wrong target...............should they not be lashing out at the Greek public sector and tax-dodgers trying to pull them back into the water, rather than the EU/IMF Lifeguard trying to pull them out of the water?

Ostrom

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Comparing this
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/10/us-greece-police-idUSTRE8190UC20120210

with this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007949/The-Big-Fat-Greek-Gravy-Train-A-special-investigation-EU-funded-culture-greed-tax-evasion-scandalous-waste.html

It seems the Greek police have taken aim at the wrong target...............should they not be lashing out at the Greek public sector and tax-dodgers trying to pull them back into the water, rather than the EU/IMF Lifeguard trying to pull them out of the water?

A public demanding representation (i.e. a refletion of their collective will, as devolved to their elected representatives) over a crisis not of their own making? Predictable right wing misrepresentation from the mail as usual.

Dannyboy83

efla wrote: »

A public demanding representation (i.e. a refletion of their collective will, as devolved to their elected representatives) over a crisis not of their own making?

Not of their own making....................did we read the same article ?

http://www.dailymail...lous-waste.html

The overground rail network is as big a racket as the EU-funded underground. While its annual income is only £80?million from ticket sales, the wage bill is more than £500m a year — prompting one Greek politician to famously remark that it would be cheaper to put all the commuters into private taxis.


Significantly, since entering Europe as part of an ill-fated dream by politicians of creating a European super-state, the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled in a decade. At the same time, perks and fiddles reminiscent of Britain in the union-controlled 1970s have flourished.




Astonishingly, only 5,000 people in a country of 12 million admit to earning more than £90,000 a year — a salary that would not be enough to buy a garden shed in Kifissia.



Manipulating a corrupt tax system, many of the residents simply say that they earn below the basic tax threshold of around £10,000 a year, even though they own boats, second homes on Greek islands and properties overseas.

And, should the taxman rumble this common ruse, it can be dealt with using a ‘fakelaki’ — an envelope stuffed with cash. There is even a semi-official rate for bribes: passing a false tax return requires a payment of up to 10,000 euros (the average Greek family is reckoned to pay out £2,000 a year in fakelaki.)


With Greek President George Papandreou calling for a crackdown on these tax dodgers — who are believed to cost the economy as much as £40bn a year

Tom Harward

it was really good to work 5 hours a day and then taverna...

Crosswind

Tom Harward wrote: »

it was really good to work 5 hours a day and then taverna...

...for 460/mth

Einhard

efla wrote: »

A public demanding representation (i.e. a refletion of their collective will, as devolved to their elected representatives) over a crisis not of their own making?

You're not being serious are you?

pacquiao

Scofflaw wrote: »

OK, so widescale protests & rioting on the one hand, party defections on the other, but still passed by a two-thirds majority. And the reaction of the rest of the eurozone:



It's still to be voted on by the rest of the eurozone - that comes on Feb 27th, so there's still time for the applecart to be upset between now and then.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Frustrated after two years of missed budget targets, the European authorities demanded Greek officials put their verbal commitments into law.

Previously, what was stopping them from running a massive deficit?

southsiderosie

pacquiao wrote: »

Previously, what was stopping them from running a massive deficit?

I would guess the fact that they could devalue their way out of a crisis? Inflation in Greece was consistently high until the euro convergence process.

Scofflaw

pacquiao wrote: »

Previously, what was stopping them from running a massive deficit?

Presuming that to be in relation to the "two years of missed budget targets", the answer would presumably be nothing at all. After all, here's nothing in Irish law constraining the Irish government to the troika programme targets, as far as I'm aware.

cordially,
Scofflaw

pacquiao

Scofflaw wrote: »

Presuming that to be in relation to the "two years of missed budget targets", the answer would presumably be nothing at all. After all, here's nothing in Irish law constraining the Irish government to the troika programme targets, as far as I'm aware.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Member nations must keep deficits at less than 3 percent of gross domestic product and trim national debt to less than 60 percent of GDP under the pact.

Is the above law?

Ostrom

Einhard wrote: »

You're not being serious are you?

No doubt you get the politicians you deserve/elect, but we are also quick to externalise our faults to actors like Fianna Fail. I fail to see how the majority of the Greek electorate should be held accountable for the misrepresentations / corruptions of its government (i.e. GDP misreporting), given that the Greek collapse (as with ours) is partly rooted in events beyond its borders, and the actions of a minority.

I'm not dismissing the clear need for austerity, just pointing out this profound ideological shift forwarded by commentators like the mail. It seems to be part of a broader, worrying tendency toward statism where every step is taken to ensure the will of the electorate is subverted (as per deliberations over the constitutional-level enactment of the fiscal compact).

southsiderosie

efla wrote: »

No doubt you get the politicians you deserve/elect, but we are also quick to externalise our faults to actors like Fianna Fail. I fail to see how the majority of the Greek electorate should be held accountable for the misrepresentations / corruptions of its government (i.e. GDP misreporting), given that the Greek collapse (as with ours) is partly rooted in events beyond its borders, and the actions of a minority.

I'm not dismissing the clear need for austerity, just pointing out this profound ideological shift forwarded by commentators like the mail. It seems to be part of a broader, worrying tendency toward statism where every step is taken to ensure the will of the electorate is subverted (as per deliberations over the constitutional-level enactment of the fiscal compact).

But this raises a broader question: should politicians simply carry out the will of the electorate, or at some point do they do the politically unpopular thing because they think it is in the best long-term interests of the country? I don't think the answer should be either-or; rather there has to be a balance.

Scofflaw

pacquiao wrote: »

Is the above law?

It's not Irish law. It's a treaty commitment, with penalties enshrined in the same treaty. Kyoto is also a treaty.

cordially,
Scofflaw

squonk

Would the Greeks not be better off heading off to Berlin or Burssels and rioting and buring down shops there? Might bring the reality of the situation closer to the home of the ruling classes!

Ostrom

southsiderosie wrote: »

But this raises a broader question: should politicians simply carry out the will of the electorate, or at some point do they do the politically unpopular thing because they think it is in the best long-term interests of the country? I don't think the answer should be either-or; rather there has to be a balance.

In a state of impartial rationality, perhaps - although I don't think it possible to objectively measure harm irrespective of class/political interests (apologies for the nondescript terminology).

In either case, I would argue that any such measures of recovery (as return to growth, interest rates on bonds etc) implicate some form of inequality with the majority electorate as losers - in either monetary or representational terms.

Speaking in the abstract - it is a worrying form of centralisation, and unfortunately, most commentaries seem to imply an uncritical acceptance that such decisions are both impartial and optimal.

Scofflaw

efla wrote: »

No doubt you get the politicians you deserve/elect, but we are also quick to externalise our faults to actors like Fianna Fail. I fail to see how the majority of the Greek electorate should be held accountable for the misrepresentations / corruptions of its government (i.e. GDP misreporting), given that the Greek collapse (as with ours) is partly rooted in events beyond its borders, and the actions of a minority.

I'm not dismissing the clear need for austerity, just pointing out this profound ideological shift forwarded by commentators like the mail. It seems to be part of a broader, worrying tendency toward statism where every step is taken to ensure the will of the electorate is subverted (as per deliberations over the constitutional-level enactment of the fiscal compact).

Would you argue, then, that in a democracy the citizens are not responsible for the actions of their government, and/or have no responsibility for ensuring that their government is honest and sensible?

How is it that the Greeks have a government who appear to have more or less swindled their way into the eurozone, and who have very evidently spent much more money than their state can afford ever since, and lied about it - while the Germans (and the Scandinavians, etc etc) don't? Was bad government somehow imposed on Greece?

cordially,
Scofflaw

pacquiao

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not Irish law. It's a treaty commitment, with penalties enshrined in the same treaty. Kyoto is also a treaty.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Is a treaty not international law though?

Einhard

efla wrote: »

No doubt you get the politicians you deserve/elect, but we are also quick to externalise our faults to actors like Fianna Fail. I fail to see how the majority of the Greek electorate should be held accountable for the misrepresentations / corruptions of its government (i.e. GDP misreporting), given that the Greek collapse (as with ours) is partly rooted in events beyond its borders, and the actions of a minority.

I'm not dismissing the clear need for austerity, just pointing out this profound ideological shift forwarded by commentators like the mail. It seems to be part of a broader, worrying tendency toward statism where every step is taken to ensure the will of the electorate is subverted (as per deliberations over the constitutional-level enactment of the fiscal compact).

I think the people have to bear some responsibility for the actions of the people they elect. Also, I think that the Greek people have been far more complicit in the financial recklessness and malfeasance of their state than the Irish have in theirs. The Irish spent too much and were fiscally irresponsible, but they don't partake in the type massive tax evasion and fraud that is an integral part of Greek society. The Greek people have to pay some price for that culture. I don't relish that and I certainly don't seek it as a form of punishment, but how can the Germans and the Dutch be expected to simply hand over another €140 billion to a society where tax fraud and evasion are still rife, which has a massive military relative to its means, and which treats promises and commitments as mere fripperies?

The Greeks have a choice: implement the measures and, to put it frankly, cop the fup on, or withdraw from the euro. They have, for the most part, been the authors of this mess, and yet they seem to want everyone but themselves to go the distance to clear it up.

And all this anti-German rhstoric and flag burning is really shameful.

meglome

Scofflaw wrote: »

Would you argue, then, that in a democracy the citizens are not responsible for the actions of their government, and/or have no responsibility for ensuring that their government is honest and sensible?

How is it that the Greeks have a government who appear to have more or less swindled their way into the eurozone, and who have very evidently spent much more money than their state can afford ever since, and lied about it - while the Germans (and the Scandinavians, etc etc) don't? Was bad government somehow imposed on Greece?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I've been (probably foolishly) arguing this over on the Journal for the last few days. It's so easy to say the word 'banker' like you might say the word paedophile and many are doing just that. Like somehow these bankers managed to single-handedly bring the whole country down. The reality is far more complicated and is very much rooted in Greek society. They did this to themselves and no amount of rioting will change that.

pacquiao

meglome wrote: »

I've been (probably foolishly) arguing this over on the Journal for the last few days. It's so easy to say the word 'banker' like you might say the word paedophile and many are doing just that. Like somehow these bankers managed to single-handedly bring the whole country down. The reality is far more complicated and is very much rooted in Greek society. They did this to themselves and no amount of rioting will change that.

It's rooted in every society. Perhaps the Greeks should get a lobotomy?
I wonder what the tax receipts were leading up to them joining the euro currency?

Scofflaw

pacquiao wrote: »

Is a treaty not international law though?

Oof...that's a tough one. Yes, no, a bit, sometimes...all seem applicable. Somewhere between law and a contract, and perhaps more towards the latter, with breach of that contract being subject to international law.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ostrom

Scofflaw wrote: »

Would you argue, then, that in a democracy the citizens are not responsible for the actions of their government, and/or have no responsibility for ensuring that their government is honest and sensible?

How is it that the Greeks have a government who appear to have more or less swindled their way into the eurozone, and who have very evidently spent much more money than their state can afford ever since, and lied about it - while the Germans (and the Scandinavians, etc etc) don't? Was bad government somehow imposed on Greece?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Such a question invokes a false assumption of rationality. What scope was there for such critical input, given that liberalisation of trade and financial capital constituted the essential basis of every inter-state agreement over the last twenty years? (I really would like to hear your thoughts on this - I dont have an answer)

My point is that explanations should probably be sought at a levels beyond national mentality - there are commonalities at work that suggest a greater level of complexity*. The problem is that seeking out what is essentially 'Greek' about this - significant as such local nuances are - results in uncritical, reductionist rubbish like those articles from the mail, or the above comment that my replies are somehow 'anti-German rhetoric'.

*i.e. Marxist answer - logical response to ensuring free movement of capital / Instrumentalist answer - conscious, class-based centralisation of power, neither of which I particualrly subscribe to

meglome

pacquiao wrote: »

It's rooted in every society. Perhaps the Greeks should get a lobotomy?
I wonder what the tax receipts were leading up to them joining the euro currency?

Well stuff like tax evasion and corruption exist in every society but the Greeks seem to have it a whole special level.

Astonishingly, only 5,000 people in a country of 12 million admit to earning more than £90,000 a year — a salary that would not be enough to buy a garden shed in Kifissia.

Now I am very loath to quote the Daily Fail but I did see these kinds of figures elsewhere too. The Greek government is saying that perhaps €50 billion a year is being lost through tax evasion. Can't say if that's correct but if it is it's unbelievable.

pacquiao

meglome wrote: »

Well stuff like tax evasion and corruption exist in every society but the Greeks seem to have it a whole special level.



Now I am very loath to quote the Daily Fail but I did see these kinds of figures elsewhere too. The Greek government is saying that perhaps €50 billion a year is being lost through tax evasion. Can't say if that's correct but if it is it's unbelievable.

That number is huge. So huge in fact that surely the government ministers knew about it?

Scofflaw

efla wrote: »

Such a question invokes a false assumption of rationality.

Does it? Surely if one claims the assumption of rationality is false one is essentially stating that the Greeks aren't responsible by virtue of not being rational.

efla wrote: »

What scope was there for such critical input, given that liberalisation of trade and financial capital constituted the essential basis of every inter-state agreement over the last twenty years? (I really would like to hear your thoughts on this - I dont have an answer)

I'm not sure of the relevance of that, because it seems to me to beg some enormous questions - it assumes that liberalisation of trade and financial capital are (a) the root of Greece's problems; and (b) something that could prevent reform of Greek government. The former seems merely wrong, or at least out of line with the prima facie evidence - the latter seems frankly bizarre.

efla wrote: »

My point is that explanations should probably be sought at a levels beyond national mentality - there are commonalities at work that suggest a greater level of complexity*. The problem is that seeking out what is essentially 'Greek' about this - significant as such local nuances are - results in uncritical, reductionist rubbish like those articles from the mail, or the above comment that my replies are somehow 'anti-German rhetoric'.

*i.e. Marxist answer - logical response to ensuring free movement of capital / Instrumentalist answer - conscious, class-based centralisation of power, neither of which I particualrly subscribe to

Why should explanations be sought "at levels beyond national mentality", though? What commonalities "suggest a greater level of complexity", beyond the obvious commonalities of public debt and market borrowing? Which other current crises are the result of what appears to be reckless borrowing, feckless spending, and relentless massage of figures at a state and individual level?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ostrom

Scofflaw wrote: »

Does it? Surely if one claims the assumption of rationality is false one is essentially stating that the Greeks aren't responsible by virtue of not being rational.

I'm not sure of the relevance of that, because it seems to me to beg some enormous questions - it assumes that liberalisation of trade and financial capital are (a) the root of Greece's problems; and (b) something that could prevent reform of Greek government. The former seems merely wrong, or at least out of line with the prima facie evidence - the latter seems frankly bizarre.

My point is that there is something fundamentally unsettling about the dominant rhetoric of unqualified 'collective responsibility'. Your responses imply a degree of active responsibility by the electorate to ensure accountability which is truly possible only under conditions of complete information. If politics is as selectively issue-driven and localised as Ireland, I find it difficult to imagine how any such culture/system of accountability could be expected (this is not an excuse or dismissal, I believe it is fundamental).

Furthermore, if the roots of this Greek crisis are in an official misrepresentation of its debt-GDP ratios, surely this underscores the inequity of burdening the majority electorate with austerity? My argument is not against the specifics, or necessity of the austerity programme, but with the inequity of its consequences, and the manner of its public representation and justification.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why should explanations be sought "at levels beyond national mentality", though? What commonalities "suggest a greater level of complexity", beyond the obvious commonalities of public debt and market borrowing? Which other current crises are the result of what appears to be reckless borrowing, feckless spending, and relentless massage of figures at a state and individual level?

Because you appear capable of conceptualising in terms of its economic roots, rather than solely a product of national character - I believe (perhaps arrogantly) most would hold to the latter

meglome

pacquiao wrote: »

That number is huge. So huge in fact that surely the government ministers knew about it?

Sure agreed. I think the point is everyone knew about. I've seen corruption first hand in different countries and in places like Romania it was systemic. It was the system. Greece seems to be the same with added tax evasion.

Scofflaw

efla wrote: »

My point is that there is something fundamentally unsettling about the dominant rhetoric of unqualified 'collective responsibility'. Your responses imply a degree of active responsibility by the electorate to ensure accountability which is truly possible only under conditions of complete information. If politics is as selectively issue-driven and localised as Ireland, I find it difficult to imagine how any such culture/system of accountability could be expected (this is not an excuse or dismissal, I believe it is fundamental).

Unfortunately, that just moves the problem one stage back. Is it not the electorate's responsibility to be informed? If politics in Greece is as selectively issue-driven and localised as Ireland, is that the outcome of an imposed system or an expression of the preference of the Greek public? In Ireland it certainly seems to be an expression of preference, and I see no reason to assume differently in the case of Greece.

I'm not measuring the Greeks here against some unattainable perfect democracy - I'm measuring them against the Scandinavian nations, who aren't perfect, but are hella better than Greece, alas.

efla wrote: »

Furthermore, if the roots of this Greek crisis are in an official misrepresentation of its debt-GDP ratios, surely this underscores the inequity of burdening the majority electorate with austerity? My argument is not against the specifics, or necessity of the austerity programme, but with the inequity of its consequences, and the manner of its public representation and justification.

There are two problems there: first, that if the majority electorate benefited from the borrowing and spending that led to the austerity, and voted for parties that did the borrowing and spending without asking too many questions about where the money came from, it's hard to call imposition of austerity at the same general level inequitable.

Second, with respect to the internal distribution of the burdens of austerity - again, the problem here would seem to be that the Greek public accepted the buying off of certain power blocs and corporate interests within Greek society during the good times, and are now stuck with the entrenched mechanisms of inequity that created. Again, that's similar to Ireland - we allowed vested interests to be bought off during the boom to give us a quiet life, and are now outraged when they defend their buy-off at a time when action by those strengthened interests would be potentially crippling - a bit of reaping what one sowed.

efla wrote: »

Because you appear capable of conceptualising in terms of its economic roots, rather than solely a product of national character - I believe (perhaps arrogantly) most would hold to the latter

Unfortunately, though, I'm not being offered much in the way of economic roots as opposed to national particularism as an explanation for the particular form of the crisis in Greece. It seems rather more the case that Greece used the market perception of being eurozone-backed to go on a borrowing spree, and used the proceeds partly to pretend to a level of public wealth that their economy couldn't actually support, partly to sustain their arms race with their much larger eastern neighbour, and partly to buy off potentially divisive forces within Greek society by ensuring that there was a superfluity of pork for everyone.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Crosswind

Some things not known by many:

1) This government was elected by saying that going to IMF would be a disaster. Latest polls give an 8% to their party.
2) All funds given so far, were given to cover previous loans.
3) These funds were also given by promising that Greece will buy tanks & submarines from Germany and frigates from France. During the last decade, Greece spent several billions to buy subs from Germany. Germany was paid in full for all 6 of them, delivered only one and this one is malfunctioning (cannot sail straight, tilts on one side-not joking here).
4) Big public sector: Greece has several dozens of islands. Would it be better to have a school on each island or get the students every morning on a boat to go to a bigger island to study? Especially in the winter the winds are quite dangerous on the Aegean sea.
Same for health centres/hospitals and all public services.
5) Loans: 1st loan was given in Greece during the liberation war in the 1800s. Out of 800.000 pounds, banks kept half of it as security while middle men appointed by the banks kept 30%. Despite this, Greece had to repay the whole sum, something that was done in the 1980s or 1990s!
6) Could someone explain how austerity measures lead to growth? Or at least one country where IMF measures were successful?
7) Tax evasion: Current system taxes up to 60% businesses, so you understand that the system itself promotes tax evasion.

You can blame the Greeks for being stupid enough to believe the two parties that govern the country during the last 30 years, but that's about it.

Ostrom

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, that just moves the problem one stage back. Is it not the electorate's responsibility to be informed? If politics in Greece is as selectively issue-driven and localised as Ireland, is that the outcome of an imposed system or an expression of the preference of the Greek public? In Ireland it certainly seems to be an expression of preference, and I see no reason to assume differently in the case of Greece.

Unfortunately, this is not the case, and your expectations of the electorate, although desirable, are unrealistic. Electoral politics is not fought on concise argument over the relative technical merits of libreralisation / national debt financing - I would suggest the majority public (despite what I believe to be their responsibility) have neither the time, nor the interest, and in certain cases the capacity to pick through the specifics of complex policy implications and financial intruments. In either case, the question of imposition/expression (and consequently, culpability) falsely relies on the assumption that both parties are mutually informed.

Electoral politics is structured in such a way as to obscure the long term implications both of party policy and trans-national agreements (e.g. the tone and standard of the Lisbon treaty debates). Politics is instead pitched around short-term local issues, and agreements/policies which establish far-reaching long term economic and social precedents are depicted in terms of short-term, appealing benefits such as growth, nondescript mechanisms of job creation - or selective, ideologically appealling issues. If you want to be really instrumentalist-conspiratorial about it, it is probably in the active interests of policymakers to reduce complexity as such, but the overall concentration of wealth engendered by liberalisation suggests a more concrete explanation.

This does not absolve the public of a responsibility to be informed, but it is an awfully difficult thing to accomplish when faced with a political system dependent on presenting politics around issues of selective appeal for its own preservation.

Scofflaw wrote: »

There are two problems there: first, that if the majority electorate benefited from the borrowing and spending that led to the austerity, and voted for parties that did the borrowing and spending without asking too many questions about where the money came from, it's hard to call imposition of austerity at the same general level inequitable.

Second, with respect to the internal distribution of the burdens of austerity - again, the problem here would seem to be that the Greek public accepted the buying off of certain power blocs and corporate interests within Greek society during the good times, and are now stuck with the entrenched mechanisms of inequity that created. Again, that's similar to Ireland - we allowed vested interests to be bought off during the boom to give us a quiet life, and are now outraged when they defend their buy-off at a time when action by those strengthened interests would be potentially crippling - a bit of reaping what one sowed.

Approaching the question of equity from another direction - assuming the complicity of the Greek public in policies to their majority favour, should this not imply a similar equitable distribution of gain throughout the growth years? ILO rankings suggest aggregate Greek income levels are modestly comparable to other EU-15, despite recording consistently above-average (above eu15) scores on poverty risk measures, and displaying income inequality levels comparable to others of similar UNDP HDI level*. Yet the burden of austerity, as with Ireland, relies on inducing further upward transfers with little explicit discussion of the net beneficiaries, nor a balanced discussion of who should be expected to bear the brunt of the tax burden.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, though, I'm not being offered much in the way of economic roots as opposed to national particularism as an explanation for the particular form of the crisis in Greece. It seems rather more the case that Greece used the market perception of being eurozone-backed to go on a borrowing spree, and used the proceeds partly to pretend to a level of public wealth that their economy couldn't actually support, partly to sustain their arms race with their much larger eastern neighbour, and partly to buy off potentially divisive forces within Greek society by ensuring that there was a superfluity of pork for everyone.

*Let me know if you want specific links - I'm referring to the UNDP table of gini coefficients, and the eu-15 poverty measures are from eurostat

oscarBravo

efla wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is not the case, and your expectations of the electorate, although desirable, are unrealistic.

[...]

Electoral politics is structured in such a way as to obscure the long term implications both of party policy and trans-national agreements...

This does not absolve the public of a responsibility to be informed, but it is an awfully difficult thing to accomplish when faced with a political system dependent on presenting politics around issues of selective appeal for its own preservation.

At the risk of seeming argumentative, it looks to me like you want to eat your cake and have it too. This is actually encapsulated in your opening point in this thread:

efla wrote: »

A public demanding representation (i.e. a refletion of their collective will, as devolved to their elected representatives) over a crisis not of their own making?

If it's unfair to expect the electorate to have a full understanding of all the complexities facing the government they elect, then the corollary is that it falls to government to fill in the gaps and act on its own initiative, even if that means doing things that fall outside the expectations of the under-informed electorate.

The alternative - reflecting the collective (albeit uninformed) will of the public - relieves the burden from both electorate and elected. It's too much to ask that the electorate fully understand the issues, but the government - of whom, presumably, it's not too much to ask - are not allowed to operate outside the mandate of the mob.

It doesn't add up for me, I'm afraid.

Ostrom

oscarBravo wrote: »

At the risk of seeming argumentative, it looks to me like you want to eat your cake and have it too. This is actually encapsulated in your opening point in this thread:

If it's unfair to expect the electorate to have a full understanding of all the complexities facing the government they elect, then the corollary is that it falls to government to fill in the gaps and act on its own initiative, even if that means doing things that fall outside the expectations of the under-informed electorate.

Not at all, I appreciate the discussion. It is not a question of allocating specific responsibility or culpability, my concern is that this appeal to collective culpability ignores systemic deficiencies in representation. The result, ultimately, is inequality of both material outcome and the consequent austerity burden which is in turn normalised by (falsely) appealling to the idea that (a) the electorate had reasonable scope to intervene, and (b) gains were evenly distributed as a result of 'rational' calculation on the part of the voting public

oscarBravo wrote: »

The alternative - reflecting the collective (albeit uninformed) will of the public - relieves the burden from both electorate and elected. It's too much to ask that the electorate fully understand the issues, but the government - of whom, presumably, it's not too much to ask - are not allowed to operate outside the mandate of the mob.

It doesn't add up for me, I'm afraid.

It would be sufficient merely to acknowledge that there are numerous elements complicating the question of collective responsibility. As per my original post, my concern rests with the manner in which these factors (i.e. the nature of electoral politics, complexities of policy, difficulties in long-term prediction) serve to undermine representation - arguably across states other than Greece - and how these complexities are in turn reduced to a question of national character in public discussion. It does nothing to address the real consequences of diminished representation, and inhibits evidence-based discussion.

Einhard

Crosswind wrote: »

You can blame the Greeks for being stupid enough to believe the two parties that govern the country during the last 30 years, but that's about it.

Tax evasion and corruption is idespread across Greek society. It appears a systemic aspect of Greek culture. Are they not the responsibility of the Greek people too?

Dannyboy83

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46312376/Greece_Keeps_Promising_Reform_but_Few_Believe_It
The shadow economy still accounts for more than a quarter of the 220-billion-euro official output — the highest proportion in the euro zone. Annual tax evasion stands at 40 billion to 45 billion euros, said Nikos Lekkas, the number two official in Greece's Financial and Economic Crime unit.

If you look up the definition of "smoking gun", you ought to find the above quote.

djpbarry

efla wrote: »

...I would suggest the majority public (despite what I believe to be their responsibility) have neither the time, nor the interest, and in certain cases the capacity to pick through the specifics of complex policy implications and financial intruments.

I think most people would agree with you. However, we're not talking complex financial instruments here, we're talking basic arithmetic. If I was living in a state where generous welfare was the norm, but I and pretty much everyone I knew was paying feck-all tax, I think we'd all be thinking there was something amiss.

efla wrote: »

Approaching the question of equity from another direction - assuming the complicity of the Greek public in policies to their majority favour, should this not imply a similar equitable distribution of gain throughout the growth years? ILO rankings suggest aggregate Greek income levels are modestly comparable to other EU-15...

Considering other EU-15 nations have functioning economies, that's not really a valid comparison.

Crosswind

Einhard wrote: »

Tax evasion and corruption is idespread across Greek society. It appears a systemic aspect of Greek culture. Are they not the responsibility of the Greek people too?

I wouldn't call it systemic aspect of Greek culture as the vast majority of people being taxed (public and private sector employees, pensioners) simply cannot evade their taxes the way the system works. Tax evasion is widely spread among large organisations and there are not many of those in Greece. Not sure where that 50bn comes from, but it's definitely not the case.

meglome

Crosswind wrote: »

I wouldn't call it systemic aspect of Greek culture as the vast majority of people being taxed (public and private sector employees, pensioners) simply cannot evade their taxes the way the system works. Tax evasion is widely spread among large organisations and there are not many of those in Greece. Not sure where that 50bn comes from, but it's definitely not the case.

The Greek government estimates that there is currently 40-45 billion euro in tax evasion.

Crosswind

meglome wrote: »

The Greek government estimates that there is currently 40-45 billion euro in tax evasion.

As usual, Greek dictators (sorry, government) are talking out of their a$$es.

meglome

Crosswind wrote: »

As usual, Greek dictators (sorry, government) are talking out of their a$$es.

So we should ignore all the many reports about tax evasion from many different sources? We should ignore the official government statistics about how many people claim to be earning x amount?

While I don't necessarily believe the Greek government I certain don't believe you. You got any evidence?

Crosswind

meglome wrote: »

So we should ignore all the many reports about tax evasion from many different sources?

We should ignore the official government statistics about how many people claim to be earning x amount?

While I don't necessarily believe the Greek government I certain don't believe you. You got any evidence?

Well, you can believe that Elvis is still alive and ice-skating in the surface of Mars for all I care. Certainly more sensible than believing the same politicians who some months before being elected their motto was "We have money, a load of money", the same politicians who lied their way into the euro zone and and and...I have dozens of examples if you're interested.
--EDIT-- Forgot to add that on their lists for tax evaders they have companies that went bankrupt in the 80s...

oscarBravo

Crosswind wrote: »

meglome wrote: »

You got any evidence?

Well, you can believe that Elvis is still alive and ice-skating in the surface of Mars for all I care.

That would be a "no", then.

Crosswind

oscarBravo wrote: »

That would be a "no", then.

Sure

The Greek government recognizes that tax evasion and the system of tax collection has been a long-term problem. The finance ministry estimates that it is owed ?40 billion ($56 billion) in uncollected taxes going back decades, but now thought impossible to recover due to bankruptcies and deaths.

Some more

Tax dodging costs Greece more than $20 billion per year


So, is it 40bn in total, 20bn/yr or what?

oscarBravo

Crosswind wrote: »

So, is it 40bn in total, 20bn/yr or what?

I don't know, but you're not really getting the "evidence" thing.

You claim the Greek government are exaggerating the scale of tax evasion. This implies that you know the scale of tax evasion. Please quantify the scale of tax evasion as you understand it, with reference to reliable sources.

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

I wouldn't call it systemic aspect of Greek culture as the vast majority of people being taxed (public and private sector employees, pensioners) simply cannot evade their taxes the way the system works. Tax evasion is widely spread among large organisations and there are not many of those in Greece.

That's not actually true. The vast bulk of tax evasion comes from small businesses and the self employed; for example it is commonplace to pay for a visit to a doctor in cash, which then ends up never appearing on the books. This extends to employees in many small firms, where they are paid either partially in cash or even do not appear on the books as employees at all. So tax evasion is systemic in Greece, just as it was in Ireland twenty or thirty years ago.

Of course, state employees cannot avoid the punitive tax levels, but then again you need to consider the state employment system in Greece. Bad public sector pay and high taxes are not so bad if you have 14 or more monthly pay cheques in the year and your hours are essentially part time, so that you can go off and earn some real money in one of those aforementioned cash-in-hand jobs, then retire on 3/4 salary long before you're sixty.

One of my favourite examples is that of state rail (the OSE) which, at least up until recently, literally had more employees than passengers. So inefficient was it that a former Greek minister had publicly admitted that it would be cheaper to send everyone by taxi than train.

I do sympathize for the plight of many Greeks in the current crisis. However, to turn around and blame the EU or politicians (that they elected) for the tax evasion they were complicit with on a daily basis or the blatant overspending in the public sector, abdicates all social responsibility; and is not dissimilar to the present Irish fashion to solely blame banks and Fianna Fail for the property bubble.

KIERAN1

George Carlin, in my view was one of the greatest minds of the 21st century and a damn fine comedian to boot.

This short video from Carlin from the 80's or 90's is a description of the the real reality we find ourself's in, not the fictitious fascade portrayed to us, by our so called media and politicians.

RIP-George

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ&feature=fvst

Crosswind

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't know, but you're not really getting the "evidence" thing.

You claim the Greek government are exaggerating the scale of tax evasion. This implies that you know the scale of tax evasion. Please quantify the scale of tax evasion as you understand it, with reference to reliable sources.

No one knows the exact number of tax evasion. It's not a thing that can be measured, only estimated. So, according to Greece's GDP, GDP growth, income tax as a percent of GDP and according to EU's average income tax as percent of GDP it can't be 40bn/year. Maybe a bit more than half, but certainly not 40bn.
If there is a more reliable methodology to find a more approximate number, i'm all ears.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's not actually true. The vast bulk of tax evasion comes from small businesses and the self employed; for example it is commonplace to pay for a visit to a doctor in cash, which then ends up never appearing on the books. This extends to employees in many small firms, where they are paid either partially in cash or even do not appear on the books as employees at all. So tax evasion is systemic in Greece, just as it was in Ireland twenty or thirty years ago.

As i wrote in a previous post, the tax system itself promotes tax evasion. You can't tax businesses up to 60%, especially these times. (to be cont'd)

Of course, state employees cannot avoid the punitive tax levels, but then again you need to consider the state employment system in Greece. Bad public sector pay and high taxes are not so bad if you have 14 or more monthly pay cheques in the year and your hours are essentially part time, so that you can go off and earn some real money in one of those aforementioned cash-in-hand jobs, then retire on 3/4 salary long before you're sixty.

14 monthly pay cheques, but no bonus as in other countries, so basically the same thing

One of my favourite examples is that of state rail (the OSE) which, at least up until recently, literally had more employees than passengers. So inefficient was it that a former Greek minister had publicly admitted that it would be cheaper to send everyone by taxi than train.

Well, public services are generally like that. They have to serve the public even if they have no profit. For example, you have a small mountain village of 100 residents that has no electricity or phone lines. Would you leave them without phone or heating just because the installation costs would be higher than potential income?
Concerning OSE, yes they've done the usual thing (ie hiring the party members)

I do sympathize for the plight of many Greeks in the current crisis. However, to turn around and blame the EU or politicians (that they elected) for the tax evasion they were complicit with on a daily basis or the blatant overspending in the public sector, abdicates all social responsibility; and is not dissimilar to the present Irish fashion to solely blame banks and Fianna Fail for the property bubble.

We actually blame all who deserve to be blamed (including ourselves)
Anyways, i'll try to reply in more details (especially on your first part) a bit later. I have a 3yr old here that tries to power off the laptop

The Corinthian

Crosswind wrote: »

As i wrote in a previous post, the tax system itself promotes tax evasion. You can't tax businesses up to 60%, especially these times. (to be cont'd)

Nonsense. That cannot be used as a justification for tax evasion any more than "I was abused a child" excuses child abuse in adulthood.

14 monthly pay cheques, but no bonus as in other countries, so basically the same thing

Most people in jobs in other countries actually don't get bonuses, let alone two month's salary worth of bonuses. Indeed, do civil servants normally get bonuses?

Well, public services are generally like that. They have to serve the public even if they have no profit. For example, you have a small mountain village of 100 residents that has no electricity or phone lines. Would you leave them without phone or heating just because the installation costs would be higher than potential income?
Concerning OSE, yes they've done the usual thing (ie hiring the party members)

Again this does not excuse the shear scale of waste which clearly is not designed to "serve the public" as much as create artificial employment for some of them.

We actually blame all who deserve to be blamed (including ourselves)

You'll find a few threads here where more than a few people don't seem to be able to accept any blame for Ireland's situation.

Crosswind

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nonsense. That cannot be used as a justification for tax evasion any more than "I was abused a child" excuses child abuse in adulthood.

I take it that despite your username, you never lived in Greece. Try to work there even for a while and we'll see if it's nonsense.

Most people in jobs in other countries actually don't get bonuses, let alone two month's salary worth of bonuses. Indeed, do civil servants normally get bonuses?

Yes, they do.
Not sure what you mean with your last sentence.

Again this does not excuse the shear scale of waste which clearly is not designed to "serve the public" as much as create artificial employment for some of them.

Artificial employment is used by several countries, including Japan. It can be an excellent tool if used correctly. Apparently in Greece it wasn't.