A question about Polish history

Dr.Nightdub

Just out of curiosity: Britain and France declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland, on account of the pact the three countries had signed. Did they also declare war on the Soviet Union when it invaded from the east a few weeks later?

charlemont

Dr.Nightdub wrote: »

Just out of curiosity: Britain and France declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland, on account of the pact the three countries had signed. Did they also declare war on the Soviet Union when it invaded from the east a few weeks later?

No, They didn't declare war on the USSR.
Most of the portion of Poland invaded by the Soviets is now actually a part of Belarus.

getz

charlemont wrote: »

No, They didn't declare war on the USSR.
Most of the portion of Poland invaded by the Soviets is now actually a part of Belarus.

the pact signed was against german aggression agaist poland,it was never considered that the soviets would also want a slice,

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

the pact signed was against german aggression agaist poland

Wrong. The pact did not specify the aggressor nation, save that it should be "a European Power"

getz

Reekwind wrote: »

Wrong. The pact did not specify the aggressor nation, save that it should be "a European Power"

its so easy if you dont know the full story, in 1939 the soviet union was in negotiations with the united kingdom france poland and romania,to give soviet troops transit rights through their territory as part of a collective security agreement,that failed,after germany invaded poland,the soviet goverment announced it was acting to protect the ukrainians and the belarusians who lived in easten poland because the polish state had collapsed,as there was no declaration of war by the soviet union britain and france would not have expected that the soviets had a ulterior motive, anyway by then they had their own problems, as everyone knew the pact was drawn up because of the expectations of germany invading,

Manach

My understanding of the Soviet-Russia pact*, given its historical context that both countries had recently invaded neighbouring nations, that this was worked out at the highest political level as a means to re-partition Poland and end her existence as independent nation. That Ukrainians and the Belarusians, as well as ethnic Germans, were mentioned was a mechanism so as the secret police on both sides could demand the extradition of who they wished.

*Mostly based on "Absolute War" by Bellamy

riffmongous

Poland has a very interesting military history, Polish cavalry were probably the finest in Europe in the 15-17th century. I think its a real shame that people dont know more about the older history of Poland and how it was reduced from a proud Grand Commonwealth (so far as you could have 'proud lands' back then and not just nobles leading very poor civilians) to a state of helplessness and being dissected by Russia, Prussia and Austria-Hungary. Instead most people cant look back further than ww2.

meganj

riffmongous wrote: »

Poland has a very interesting military history, Polish cavalry were probably the finest in Europe in the 15-17th century. I think its a real shame that people dont know more about the older history of Poland and how it was reduced from a proud Grand Commonwealth (so far as you could have 'proud lands' back then and not just nobles leading very poor civilians) to a state of helplessness and being dissected by Russia, Prussia and Austria-Hungary. Instead most people cant look back further than ww2.

Absolutely agree. Unfortunately for much of Polish history, all anyone thinks when they hear Polish history is the 1939 invasion. Which is, as you point out unfair. Although it is a key part of world history.

I think Irish people in particular should have a keen interest, aside from the fact that there is such a strong Polish community here, I think the similarities and the fact that we had such a rich history before the British invasion mean that we should have more understanding(?) of their history in how it corresponds to our own.

I mean Poland's history is the definition of 'Nation without State', they had all the history, language, culture all of that and as Riffmongus points out, they were consistently denied statehood due to the almost constant enveloping of Poland during many many wars, not just the Worlds'

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

its so easy if you dont know the full story, in 1939 the soviet union was in negotiations with the united kingdom france poland and romania,to give soviet troops transit rights through their territory as part of a collective security agreement,that failed,after germany invaded poland,the soviet goverment announced it was acting to protect the ukrainians and the belarusians who lived in easten poland because the polish state had collapsed,as there was no declaration of war by the soviet union britain and france would not have expected that the soviets had a ulterior motive, anyway by then they had their own problems, as everyone knew the pact was drawn up because of the expectations of germany invading,

Yes, I'm aware of the background. Doesn't change the fact that the military assurances given to Poland was not directly solely at Germany; that this is how the British government interpreted them is evidence of London's motivations. To the Western Powers, the defence of Poland was never a matter of Poland or Polish independence; if it had been then they would have taken umbrage at the highly illegal Soviet invasion. The dual purpose of the pact was diplomatic (in drawing a line in the sand for Hitler) and military (in providing time for Anglo-French mobilisation for their own defences). Utterly cynical

Drake66

paky wrote: »

the polish have a poor military history.

That is really incorrect. Poland was massively involved in defending Europe from Mongol invasion in the 13th century and Ottoman invasion in the 17th century.

xyl.az

Whole culture of Poland and polish people is defined by their history

Geography place a role in this as well - Poland was situated in the middle of all major trade routes (amber trail, silk road etc, it was considered 'gate to europe' back then) which has driven many conflicts especially with eastern empires that wanted to benefit from this trade.

First it was Mongolian hordes, then Ottoman Empire, then later Russia, Germans, Sweds, then during the XIX & XX centuries, all neighbour countries: Austria-Hungary, Russia, Germany.

Because of that Poland was always (since around XII century) fighting for independence and this history constitutes Polish culture now. It has lost its independence twice and twice fought it back. The whole history of Poland is about fighting either by defending the country or by defending their language & culture (during Russian & German occupation) by teaching language & history etc.

This defines Poles as warriors, most often stubborn, arrogant, patronising yet always 100% sure they are fighting for the right cause. Whatever they do, its always a fight (I'll do it or die... that kind of mentality).

Another thing is, history is extremely important and touchy subject for all Polish people, so for example most polish people are taking great offence when someone call them eastern europeans. For Polish its central europe, eastern europeans are the people who invaded them after 2nd WW and held Poland in 'secret' occupation until 1998. Also, remember that Polish borders were constantly changing, so their reception of these terms (east-west) will always be influenced by their history first.

few links:

(history of Poland in 10 mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG8jsn-sIps&feature=related

Map of Poland 990-2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh6WoaY9vNs&feature=related

Europe timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvlp7cBWwIw&feature=related

Enjoy
az

Artur.PL

xyl.az wrote: »

until 1998

1989

animated history of poland

anmaorbeag

I can vaguely remember a reading a library book or maybe a wikipedia search on 'white russians' that ended up with how the Poles defeated the emerging Soviets around 1920 and how their cavalry were important in that victory. This was unusual after the mainly ineffective use of cavalry in WWI.

There was something as well about how when the German Army was restricted after Versailles and they ended up using cardboard cutout tanks for training and manoeveurs during the 1920's. When Germany invaded Poland in 1939, there were reports of Polish Cavalry riding alongside the early panzers and striking them with their sabres as their propaganda had lead them to believe that the majority of German tanks were still made from cardboard!! They of course weren't and broke their swords off the side of the steel panzers before being annihilated.

I might have eaten bad cheese and dreamt this either? The former East Prussia and Danzig and how they changed after WW2 is interesting as well but for another thread.

Artur.PL

Those reports about riding cavarly against tanks are myths. Nothing more. That wasn't true.

more about this:

In 1939, 10% of the Polish army was made up of cavalry units.[80] Polish cavalry never charged German tanks or entrenched infantry or artillery, but usually acted as mobile infantry (like dragoons) and reconnaissance units and executed cavalry charges only in rare situations against foot soldiers. Other armies (including German and Soviet) also fielded and extensively used elite horse cavalry units at that time. Polish cavalry consisted of eleven brigades, as emphasized by its military doctrine, equipped with anti tank rifles "UR" and light artillery such as the highly effective Bofors 37 mm anti-tank gun. The myth originated from war correspondents reports of the Battle of Krojanty, where a Polish cavalry brigade was fired upon in ambush by hidden armored vehicles, after it had mounted a sabre-charge against German infantry

source: wiki

anmaorbeag

Thanks for the correction, I checked that on Wiki after as well. Im sure it was in the book (can't remember its name) but I think it was about German WW2 weaponry.

Artur.PL

You know it is common mistake. Germans made a propaganda movie about this which was widespread during the war. What was worse after 1945 communist did not deny it and Andrzej Wajda made a movie with the famous(infamous?) scene where cavalry was riding against the German tanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6l_vMhukg

Reekwind

anmaorbeag wrote: »

I can vaguely remember a reading a library book or maybe a wikipedia search on 'white russians' that ended up with how the Poles defeated the emerging Soviets around 1920 and how their cavalry were important in that victory. This was unusual after the mainly ineffective use of cavalry in WWI

The sheer size of the Eastern Front in WWI made trench warfare significantly less common than in the West. Conversely cavalry, and general war of manoeuvre, played a much more important role in both WWI in the East and the Russian Civil War and associated conflicts. As late as 1941 Soviet cavalry formations played an important role in the Battle of Moscow, they being much more manoeuvrable in the hostile weather conditions than mechanised units

dubhthach

Reekwind wrote: »

The sheer size of the Eastern Front in WWI made trench warfare significantly less common than in the West. Conversely cavalry, and general war of manoeuvre, played a much more important role in both WWI in the East and the Russian Civil War and associated conflicts. As late as 1941 Soviet cavalry formations played an important role in the Battle of Moscow, they being much more manoeuvrable in the hostile weather conditions than mechanised units

Germans also used Cavlary during the second World War specifically for anti-partisan in occupied Soviet Union

One infamous example been the "8th SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer"

Here's a photo from 1941-42

thoker

Lots of countries turned away the Jews in their hour of need but Dev also accepted in hundreds, it's easy in hindsight to criticise