A question about Polish history

Artur.PL

Does the arrival of a large number of Poles has increased your interest in Polish history?

Just curious and I hope it's good place to ask about this.
Once, when at work a showed Sabaton video "40 :1" to my Irish fellow he was really surprised reading info about Battle of Wizna on that video. Of course it was not really famous battle but he was surprised that Polish could fight with Germans in this way.

So, what about you?

DjFlin

I lived in Poznan when I was younger, for about 4 years. I travelled around Poland quite a bit, and was always very interested in its history.

Its been about 5 years since I was there now though, and I've forgotten just about everything I learned. Including the language.

paky

the polish have a poor military history tbh seems like they needed rescuing far too often in the past.

Artur.PL

paky wrote: »

the polish have a poor military history tbh seems like they needed rescuing far too often in the past.

a few examples?

newmug

Yes. To me there's nothing like asking a native (of whatever country) about their history, you get the real version.

I wonder though, do the Polish people here ever think about Irish history? Perhaps if they did, they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

paky

Artur.PL wrote: »

a few examples?

world war two and the katyn massacre

newmug wrote: »

Yes. To me there's nothing like asking a native (of whatever country) about their history, you get the real version.

I wonder though, do the Polish people here ever think about Irish history? Perhaps if they did, they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

most of the polish i've met have read irish history and draw comparisons between it and polish history because of both countries history with imperial colonists

charlemont

newmug wrote: »

Yes. To me there's nothing like asking a native (of whatever country) about their history, you get the real version.

I wonder though, do the Polish people here ever think about Irish history? Perhaps if they did, they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

Rubbish..

Yes I have Polish friends and was quiet surprised to find my friends girlfriend is from a town with an almost identical name to my surname. Their history is very interesting due to its location between two more powerful regions Germany/Russia, Very intelligent people too.

BTW My friends are honest with me and they even realise lots of people here haven't a clue about anything outside the island, If the Irish could run Ireland properly then we would not have needed any immigrants !!

Manach

Previous to the welcome arrival of the Poles, I had been interested in the country because of the then Pope and the activities of trade union Soladarity.
Polish history does seem to have that tragic element in it, WWII, Russian subjectation and being caught up in the schemes of Napoleon.
A recent book about the Soviet-Polish war "In White Eagle, Red Star" by Norman Davies was an interesting read.

newmug

charlemont wrote: »

Rubbish.....

Chill there will ya!

DjFlin

newmug wrote: »

I wonder though, do the Polish people here ever think about Irish history? Perhaps if they did, they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

The Polish in Poland were always asking me about Irish culture.

Artur.PL

paky wrote: »

world war two and the katyn massacre

We did not get any support on the beginning. You have to remember that Poland was independent country 20 years only when WW2 began. There was not enough time to build strong country(exactly like Ireland). Nevertheless polish army fought almost 5 weeks (how long time french army did?)

About Katyn. What they could do? On 17th of September order form HQ was not to fight with Red Army. Poles did not expect what's gonna happen. Nobody helped us also.

Also I have to say that I like to read about Irish history. I'm interested in military history so I like to read about this(I still remember face the person I asked about some detail about Brian Boru because I did not clear understand what High King menas ). Garda history is very interesting also.

dubhthach

I will admit I don't know enough about Polish history. Especially given the major role Poland paid in Europe up until the late 18th century (and it's partition).

I do think most Irish people in general are surprised when it's pointed out that Poland was perhaps the biggest country in Europe in the early 17th century. Or that a army led by the Polish King saved Europe from the Ottomans at the Battle of Vienna in 1683 (Jan III Sobieski) -- one result of that battle was introduction of Coffee to European palate!

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1635:


Tbh Paky I do think your comments about "needing rescue" are somewhat in bad taste. Especially as it completely ignores the importance of polish military contribution in Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries.

pedroeibar1

Artur.PL wrote: »

Does the arrival of a large number of Poles has increased your interest in Polish history?

Just curious and I hope it's good place to ask about this.

Irish ‘Wild Geese’ soldiers fought in the Polish Service. The Catholic link with Ireland is very strong, a shared religious background and was very evident when I first went to Poland (Warsaw) in 1992 on business.

I had no idea of its history when I first went there, and frankly was staggered not only by what the Germans had done to Warsaw, but also what the Poles had done to rebuild the Old Town. The huge square, once the site of a palace, now empty but for a single arch, a monumental reminder of what once was and what the people had suffered.
One ‘history’ memory was visiting the newly-launched Stock Exchange, located (where else!) in what had been the boardroom of the Party Headquarters building!

Ellis Dee

newmug wrote: »

Yes. To me there's nothing like asking a native (of whatever country) about their history, you get the real version.

But which real version? I think you would get radically different versions by asking Ellis Dee, Kevin Myarse or Own Arse for an outline of Irish history.:):)

newmug wrote: »

I wonder though, do the Polish people here ever think about Irish history? Perhaps if they did, they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

Different people have different interests, and some Polish people - like some Irish people - will be interested in the history of a country they live in or are visiting. Others will not be.:D

The assertion I have underlined is a superb example of hyperbole. I am not aware of any poll of the Irish people having revealed that most of them oppose other nationalities living here permanently. As long as persons of other nationalities reside here legally (as all Poles do), it probably makes very little difference to most Irish people whether they are here temporarily or permanently. Our history contains numerous examples of foreigners coming here by force and dispossessing us, but the Poles come here in peace as our guests, and we should remain true to our long-standing tradition of hospitality and welcome them with the respect that any hard-working people deserve.:rolleyes:

dave2pvd

newmug wrote: »

.....they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

That's nothing but a convenient excuse to tolerate xenophobia.

pedroeibar1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Irish ‘Wild Geese’ soldiers fought in the Polish Service.

From http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/sib/sib2.html

In 1609, the Swedish Army of King Gustav Adolphus sought out and recruited Irishman and Scots to fight in the Baltics and Germany. They served in Marquis of Hamilton's Scottish Regiment. In August 1631, the Irish troops were sketched, at Stettin by the Nuremberg printer Georg Koler. The Swedes however distrusted the Irish because they were Catholics; many of the Irish later joined the Polish and German armies

So, are there any Oconrrz, Obyrnz, etc., in Poland today?

meganj

I studied it as part of my history undergrad. I found it fascinating. I think they're are a lot of similarities between Ireland and Poland, mostly in our struggles for freedom (Poland and Ireland both saw the Great War as an opportunity to pursue independence and both countries had factions that wanted to fight in the war to gain independence and those that saw it as an opportunity for rebellion).

Also I think it's position in Europe and the constant capture of Poland makes it a very rich country historically and culturally.

For anyone whos' interested http://www.amazon.com/Concise-History-Poland-Cambridge-Histories/dp/052185332X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1 It's a bit pricey (well more than a bit) but i'm pretty sure I picked it up second hand in chapters or one of those. It's a really good read and I think Jerzy Lukowski is a fantastic historian and author.

RDM_83 again

I picked up this book here for 2 euro in a second hand book shop.

POLAND: KEY TO EUROPE
by Raymond Leslie Buell

Only given it a brief skim though it seems interesting.
What caught my eye about it however was the publishing date, 1939, within a few months of it being written Poland very clearly stopped being the potential "key to europe".

edit Amazon link if anybodies interested,

http://www.amazon.com/Poland-Europe-Raymond-Leslie-Buell/dp/1406745642

Reekwind

I know a bit about Poland but typically as a product of research into German and Russian history. Which is sad in itself

newmug wrote: »

I wonder though, do the Polish people here ever think about Irish history? Perhaps if they did, they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

You mean our history of emigration and going abroad to find work?

jonniebgood1

Originally Posted by newmug
.....they could understand why most Irish people oppose other nationalities living here permanently.

dave2pvd wrote: »

That's nothing but a convenient excuse to tolerate xenophobia.

A bit more diplomacy here lads would be helpful. Calling someone xenophobic can cause offence and is not necessary. Much better would be to ask for clarification of the original comment.

Moderator.

dmcronin

paky wrote: »

the polish have a poor military history tbh seems like they needed rescuing far too often in the past.

Polish pilots got the Brits out of a bit of trouble with the Battle Of Britain and got very little recognition for it, not even being allowed in the victory parade.

spurious

They managed to get completely wiped off the map for a hundred years or so and still kept their own language and culture.

getz

dmcronin wrote: »

Polish pilots got the Brits out of a bit of trouble with the Battle Of Britain and got very little recognition for it, not even being allowed in the victory parade.

having a dig at the brits ?.the reason britain and france went to war with germany was because they made a pact with poland that if she was invaded they would declare war on germany,with poland falling a large part of their armed forces fled to britain and fought under british command,as well as the battle of britain,they were involved in the north african campaign,my father was in the 7th army [in the tank reg desert rats] when he was alive he would often recall how brave they were,taking places like monti cassino ,he used to say when the tanks attacked the german strongholds ,the polish [1st poles] would walk alongside them, a big part of the polish forces never went back home they stayed and married into the local community that is why today there are many polish clubs still in the towns in the north of england

dmcronin

getz wrote: »

having a dig at the brits ?

Insofar as not getting the recognition they deserved, that was rather craven of the powers that be, for fear of putting Stalin's nose out of joint.

Artur.PL

They declared war and unfortunately did nothing more. They lost chance to defeat Germans.

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

the reason britain and france went to war with germany was because they made a pact with poland that if she was invaded they would declare war on germany...

They also promised the Poles that they would defend them, something that London and Paris had absolutely no intention of doing. Poland's role in that war was to buy time for the Western armies to mobilise. To quote Julian Jackson (The Fall of France): "[Allied military assurances to Poland] were all absolutely cynical, since there were no French plans for action on this scale. The French and British knew that there was nothing they could do for Poland. There was never any intention of saving Poland, at least in the short term. Poland's role was to allow the western powers the chance to save themselves by providing a breathing space. Gamelin to Gort in July 1939, 'We have every interest in the conflict beginning in the east and only generalising little by little. That way we shall enjoy the time we need to mobilise the totality of Franco-British forces'"

getz

dmcronin wrote: »

Insofar as not getting the recognition they deserved, that was rather craven of the powers that be, for fear of putting Stalin's nose out of joint.

and did ireland do anything ?dont throw stones in glass houses,there were many refugee [jewish]polish children turned away by the irish goverment ,why

dmcronin

getz wrote: »

and did ireland do anything ?dont throw stones in glass houses,there were many refugee [jewish]polish children turned away by the irish goverment ,why

You're sailing off topic there, bud. The topic is Poland. If you want to discuss what Ireland did or did not do during the War go off and open a new thread.

getz

dmcronin wrote: »

You're sailing off topic there, bud. The topic is Poland. If you want to discuss what Ireland did or did not do during the War go off and open a new thread.

then stick to polish history and leave your cheap anti british digs for the republican thread

dmcronin

Whatever.

getz

the history of the polish people in britain is very strong,to most its the first country they think about when leaving poland,the UK may still be in the doldrums,but according to the office for national statisitics [ONS] net migration to the UK from poland is on the up and poles are now the biggest group of foreign nationals in the UK.sum 545,000 polish passport holders now live in the UK,and there are over 130,000 polish children born and reg in the UK,they are not only coming to work they are putting down their roots and intergrating into british society,

Dr.Nightdub

Just out of curiosity: Britain and France declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland, on account of the pact the three countries had signed. Did they also declare war on the Soviet Union when it invaded from the east a few weeks later?

charlemont

Dr.Nightdub wrote: »

Just out of curiosity: Britain and France declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland, on account of the pact the three countries had signed. Did they also declare war on the Soviet Union when it invaded from the east a few weeks later?

No, They didn't declare war on the USSR.
Most of the portion of Poland invaded by the Soviets is now actually a part of Belarus.

getz

charlemont wrote: »

No, They didn't declare war on the USSR.
Most of the portion of Poland invaded by the Soviets is now actually a part of Belarus.

the pact signed was against german aggression agaist poland,it was never considered that the soviets would also want a slice,

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

the pact signed was against german aggression agaist poland

Wrong. The pact did not specify the aggressor nation, save that it should be "a European Power"

getz

Reekwind wrote: »

Wrong. The pact did not specify the aggressor nation, save that it should be "a European Power"

its so easy if you dont know the full story, in 1939 the soviet union was in negotiations with the united kingdom france poland and romania,to give soviet troops transit rights through their territory as part of a collective security agreement,that failed,after germany invaded poland,the soviet goverment announced it was acting to protect the ukrainians and the belarusians who lived in easten poland because the polish state had collapsed,as there was no declaration of war by the soviet union britain and france would not have expected that the soviets had a ulterior motive, anyway by then they had their own problems, as everyone knew the pact was drawn up because of the expectations of germany invading,

Manach

My understanding of the Soviet-Russia pact*, given its historical context that both countries had recently invaded neighbouring nations, that this was worked out at the highest political level as a means to re-partition Poland and end her existence as independent nation. That Ukrainians and the Belarusians, as well as ethnic Germans, were mentioned was a mechanism so as the secret police on both sides could demand the extradition of who they wished.

*Mostly based on "Absolute War" by Bellamy

riffmongous

Poland has a very interesting military history, Polish cavalry were probably the finest in Europe in the 15-17th century. I think its a real shame that people dont know more about the older history of Poland and how it was reduced from a proud Grand Commonwealth (so far as you could have 'proud lands' back then and not just nobles leading very poor civilians) to a state of helplessness and being dissected by Russia, Prussia and Austria-Hungary. Instead most people cant look back further than ww2.

meganj

riffmongous wrote: »

Poland has a very interesting military history, Polish cavalry were probably the finest in Europe in the 15-17th century. I think its a real shame that people dont know more about the older history of Poland and how it was reduced from a proud Grand Commonwealth (so far as you could have 'proud lands' back then and not just nobles leading very poor civilians) to a state of helplessness and being dissected by Russia, Prussia and Austria-Hungary. Instead most people cant look back further than ww2.

Absolutely agree. Unfortunately for much of Polish history, all anyone thinks when they hear Polish history is the 1939 invasion. Which is, as you point out unfair. Although it is a key part of world history.

I think Irish people in particular should have a keen interest, aside from the fact that there is such a strong Polish community here, I think the similarities and the fact that we had such a rich history before the British invasion mean that we should have more understanding(?) of their history in how it corresponds to our own.

I mean Poland's history is the definition of 'Nation without State', they had all the history, language, culture all of that and as Riffmongus points out, they were consistently denied statehood due to the almost constant enveloping of Poland during many many wars, not just the Worlds'

Reekwind

getz wrote: »

its so easy if you dont know the full story, in 1939 the soviet union was in negotiations with the united kingdom france poland and romania,to give soviet troops transit rights through their territory as part of a collective security agreement,that failed,after germany invaded poland,the soviet goverment announced it was acting to protect the ukrainians and the belarusians who lived in easten poland because the polish state had collapsed,as there was no declaration of war by the soviet union britain and france would not have expected that the soviets had a ulterior motive, anyway by then they had their own problems, as everyone knew the pact was drawn up because of the expectations of germany invading,

Yes, I'm aware of the background. Doesn't change the fact that the military assurances given to Poland was not directly solely at Germany; that this is how the British government interpreted them is evidence of London's motivations. To the Western Powers, the defence of Poland was never a matter of Poland or Polish independence; if it had been then they would have taken umbrage at the highly illegal Soviet invasion. The dual purpose of the pact was diplomatic (in drawing a line in the sand for Hitler) and military (in providing time for Anglo-French mobilisation for their own defences). Utterly cynical

Drake66

paky wrote: »

the polish have a poor military history.

That is really incorrect. Poland was massively involved in defending Europe from Mongol invasion in the 13th century and Ottoman invasion in the 17th century.

xyl.az

Whole culture of Poland and polish people is defined by their history

Geography place a role in this as well - Poland was situated in the middle of all major trade routes (amber trail, silk road etc, it was considered 'gate to europe' back then) which has driven many conflicts especially with eastern empires that wanted to benefit from this trade.

First it was Mongolian hordes, then Ottoman Empire, then later Russia, Germans, Sweds, then during the XIX & XX centuries, all neighbour countries: Austria-Hungary, Russia, Germany.

Because of that Poland was always (since around XII century) fighting for independence and this history constitutes Polish culture now. It has lost its independence twice and twice fought it back. The whole history of Poland is about fighting either by defending the country or by defending their language & culture (during Russian & German occupation) by teaching language & history etc.

This defines Poles as warriors, most often stubborn, arrogant, patronising yet always 100% sure they are fighting for the right cause. Whatever they do, its always a fight (I'll do it or die... that kind of mentality).

Another thing is, history is extremely important and touchy subject for all Polish people, so for example most polish people are taking great offence when someone call them eastern europeans. For Polish its central europe, eastern europeans are the people who invaded them after 2nd WW and held Poland in 'secret' occupation until 1998. Also, remember that Polish borders were constantly changing, so their reception of these terms (east-west) will always be influenced by their history first.

few links:

(history of Poland in 10 mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG8jsn-sIps&feature=related

Map of Poland 990-2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh6WoaY9vNs&feature=related

Europe timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvlp7cBWwIw&feature=related

Enjoy
az

Artur.PL

xyl.az wrote: »

until 1998

1989

animated history of poland

anmaorbeag

I can vaguely remember a reading a library book or maybe a wikipedia search on 'white russians' that ended up with how the Poles defeated the emerging Soviets around 1920 and how their cavalry were important in that victory. This was unusual after the mainly ineffective use of cavalry in WWI.

There was something as well about how when the German Army was restricted after Versailles and they ended up using cardboard cutout tanks for training and manoeveurs during the 1920's. When Germany invaded Poland in 1939, there were reports of Polish Cavalry riding alongside the early panzers and striking them with their sabres as their propaganda had lead them to believe that the majority of German tanks were still made from cardboard!! They of course weren't and broke their swords off the side of the steel panzers before being annihilated.

I might have eaten bad cheese and dreamt this either? The former East Prussia and Danzig and how they changed after WW2 is interesting as well but for another thread.

Artur.PL

Those reports about riding cavarly against tanks are myths. Nothing more. That wasn't true.

more about this:

In 1939, 10% of the Polish army was made up of cavalry units.[80] Polish cavalry never charged German tanks or entrenched infantry or artillery, but usually acted as mobile infantry (like dragoons) and reconnaissance units and executed cavalry charges only in rare situations against foot soldiers. Other armies (including German and Soviet) also fielded and extensively used elite horse cavalry units at that time. Polish cavalry consisted of eleven brigades, as emphasized by its military doctrine, equipped with anti tank rifles "UR" and light artillery such as the highly effective Bofors 37 mm anti-tank gun. The myth originated from war correspondents reports of the Battle of Krojanty, where a Polish cavalry brigade was fired upon in ambush by hidden armored vehicles, after it had mounted a sabre-charge against German infantry

source: wiki

anmaorbeag

Thanks for the correction, I checked that on Wiki after as well. Im sure it was in the book (can't remember its name) but I think it was about German WW2 weaponry.

Artur.PL

You know it is common mistake. Germans made a propaganda movie about this which was widespread during the war. What was worse after 1945 communist did not deny it and Andrzej Wajda made a movie with the famous(infamous?) scene where cavalry was riding against the German tanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6l_vMhukg

Reekwind

anmaorbeag wrote: »

I can vaguely remember a reading a library book or maybe a wikipedia search on 'white russians' that ended up with how the Poles defeated the emerging Soviets around 1920 and how their cavalry were important in that victory. This was unusual after the mainly ineffective use of cavalry in WWI

The sheer size of the Eastern Front in WWI made trench warfare significantly less common than in the West. Conversely cavalry, and general war of manoeuvre, played a much more important role in both WWI in the East and the Russian Civil War and associated conflicts. As late as 1941 Soviet cavalry formations played an important role in the Battle of Moscow, they being much more manoeuvrable in the hostile weather conditions than mechanised units

dubhthach

Reekwind wrote: »

The sheer size of the Eastern Front in WWI made trench warfare significantly less common than in the West. Conversely cavalry, and general war of manoeuvre, played a much more important role in both WWI in the East and the Russian Civil War and associated conflicts. As late as 1941 Soviet cavalry formations played an important role in the Battle of Moscow, they being much more manoeuvrable in the hostile weather conditions than mechanised units

Germans also used Cavlary during the second World War specifically for anti-partisan in occupied Soviet Union

One infamous example been the "8th SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer"

Here's a photo from 1941-42

thoker

Lots of countries turned away the Jews in their hour of need but Dev also accepted in hundreds, it's easy in hindsight to criticise