Why does Ireland need a military/army?

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Terrontress wrote: »

Bomb squads tend to be using military expertise in a civilian environment. There is no reason why the Gardaí should not perform that function if soldiers are trained primarily with domestic bombs in mind. If they are trained for military purposes and assist the government by using that training then it is easier to justify.

The Metropolitan Police in London has its own bomb squad.

True, but the costings to the state would not be the same. I would imagine more money would have to be spent to retrain AGS for this role and also additional equipment and all that goes along with it. It's not just bomb technicians that go to the scene, security is also dispatched. Therefore not only requiring AGS bomb technicians but then you need to have a squad of armed AGS on standby. Then you have to train and arm more AGS, thus costing the state more money. Not to include any allowances accrued by AGS for performing this duty.

Terrontress

benwavner wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

Bomb squads tend to be using military expertise in a civilian environment. There is no reason why the Gardaí should not perform that function if soldiers are trained primarily with domestic bombs in mind. If they are trained for military purposes and assist the government by using that training then it is easier to justify.

The Metropolitan Police in London has its own bomb squad.

True, but the costings to the state would not be the same. I would imagine more money would have to be spent to retrain AGS for this role and also additional equipment and all that goes along with it. It's not just bomb technicians that go to the scene, security is also dispatched. Therefore not only requiring AGS bomb technicians but then you need to have a squad of armed AGS on standby. Then you have to train and arm more AGS, thus costing the state more money. Not to include any allowances accrued by AGS for performing this duty.

Well, the allowances with AGS is always the $64,000 question, which is roughly what a Garda gets paid for doing things like cleaning their shoes. I joke.

Anyway, if the Gardaí were given the role from the off and the training were to be provided in-house then it would not be retraining. And there are already squads of heavily armed AGS on standby.

I presume that where there is requirement for bomb disposal, there is usually a criminal investigation carried out by AGS which would point to the whole issue being a civilian one rather than military. Same with cash escort.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Terrontress wrote: »

Well, the allowances with AGS is always the $64,000 question, which is roughly what a Garda gets paid for doing things like cleaning their shoes. I joke.

Anyway, if the Gardaí were given the role from the off and the training were to be provided in-house then it would not be retraining. And there are already squads of heavily armed AGS on standby.

I presume that where there is requirement for bomb disposal, there is usually a criminal investigation carried out by AGS which would point to the whole issue being a civilian one rather than military. Same with cash escort.

What you are saying does make sense as a whole. Logistically the switchover should not be laborious or complicated. My point is, if AGS is to take over this role....it will cost the tax payer more money. New equiptment will be bought, and there is a load of equiptment needed. The troops in the Ord Corps who do the job are sent to different countries to learn their trade as well as the expertise back home. Unfortunatey we have had an internal security threat here from "organisations" but they have enabled us to masters in our craft.

AGS has not got the decades of expertise as the DF does, you dont just throw that away because technically the bomb squad should be an AGS asset. It was only announced recently that 1/3 of the armed AGS are to be scalled back because the state cannot afford new weapons/training and equiptment for AGS. They are overstreatched as it is, so where is the security going to come from?

In regards to cash escorts. With the amount of tiger kidnappings and cash van raids that go on, not one military one has been compromised. I doubt any AGS ones have either but If I were to have a crack at a cash escort I know which one I would go for.......and its not the one with assault rifles.

Johnny Foreigner

bb1234567 wrote: »

The government is trying to find ways to cut back so why not scrap the army, I'm sure it costs a lot to run and maintain.We dont even have an airforce/submarines/missiles etc so its not like wed even be able to deal with a full on attack from another big country like England,Germany or China almost any country really, we'd be defeated within a day or two maybe less.
And since the IRA have given up their campaign we now have even less of a reason to retain an army. The only reason we need one is to help out with the UN, but we could pull out our army and maybe pull our weight by supplying the UN with a specialised garda force instead, that way we wouldnt need to maintain barracks around the country and that would be a better use of manpower and resources. I know we already have a problem with unemployment and this wont help, but maybe make the soldiers that didnt make into the specialised garda force for the UN normal gardai, we definitely do need a few more gardai patrolling our streets. That way unemployment wont go down but the government wont have to pay near as much to maintain an army thats of no use to us.

The Army are needed to protect cash deliveries to and from banks.
They also patrol the seas around Ireland to intercept drug smugglers.

LordSutch

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

The Army are needed to protect cash deliveries to and from banks.

Surely an armed police escort would protect cash deliveries to & from banks?

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

They also patrol the seas around Ireland to intercept drug smugglers.

Should 'the army' be patrolling the seas? What about the Irish coast guard/navy?

2 stroke

Our government will increasingly need the army to protect them from their loyal subjects.

Johnny Foreigner

Terrontress wrote: »

Bomb squads tend to be using military expertise in a civilian environment. There is no reason why the Gardaí should not perform that function if soldiers are trained primarily with domestic bombs in mind. If they are trained for military purposes and assist the government by using that training then it is easier to justify.

The Metropolitan Police in London has its own bomb squad.

London has a greater population than the whole of Ireland.
One cannot compare the Metropolitan Police with Garda Siochana.
They deal with different volumes of crimes.
With regard to bomb disposal, the same applies. Where these security alerts happen more frequently, you can justify the expense. For example, bomb disposal units are more needed in Northern Ireland by the PSNI, than they are needed by Garda Siohana in the Republic of Ireland.
Different Police services have different needs.

gigino

LordSutch wrote: »

We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

Well said. We sheltered under the UK's umbrella during WW2, the cold war etc and let them fight it / do the dirty work ( with individuals volunteering from Ireland ).

Batsy

bb1234567 wrote: »

The government is trying to find ways to cut back so why not scrap the army, I'm sure it costs a lot to run and maintain.We dont even have an airforce/submarines/missiles etc so its not like wed even be able to deal with a full on attack from another big country like England,Germany or China almost any country really, we'd be defeated within a day or two maybe less.

There's no chance of Ireland being attacked by England any time soon. There is no such thing as a sovereign state known as England. You may as well argue that Ireland may get attacked by Rhode Island.

Johnny Foreigner

LordSutch wrote: »

Surely an armed police escort would protect cash deliveries to & from banks?

Should 'the army' be patrolling the seas? What about the Irish coast guard/navy?

The Army's largest aid to the civil power role is its cash-in-transit escorts, with over 2000 missions carried out every year. All large shipments of cash within the State have been provided with armed military escorts since 1978. The Army have the capacity to do so, Garda Siochana have not.

While most missions undertaken by the Naval Service are in Irish waters, on occasion longer missions are undertaken in support of Irish forces serving with the United Nations, representing Ireland, or in support of Irish trade missions.
The Naval Service support the Army as part of the Irish Defence Forces. The Irish Coast Guards perform a different function.

flanders1979

Someone has to keep the ancient sport of throwing horseshoes going

Batsy

Originally Posted by LordSutch
We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

The British Army is the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not that of the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has its own, second rate, army.

And the UK is under no obligation to defend the Republic. If the Republic is under threat of invasion from a foreign power then the UK could well leave Ireland to fight its own battles unless the UK itself is under threat.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

gigino wrote: »

Well said. We sheltered under the UK's umbrella during WW2, the cold war etc and let them fight it / do the dirty work ( with individuals volunteering from Ireland ).

Typical "sure why cant someone else do it" attitude.

If you are irish, which i am not sure, have a bit of pride in yourself and your country. Just because we are broke and subject to the whims of Europe. It is now more than ever important to hold on to what we have and not to run ourselves down with typical pessimism.

gigino

benwavner wrote: »

Typical "sure why cant someone else do it" attitude.

If you are irish, which i am not sure, have a bit of pride in yourself and your country. Just because we are broke and subject to the whims of Europe. It is now more than ever important to hold on to what we have and not to run ourselves down with typical pessimism.

No need to be personal. I'm not say what we should do now or in the future. I'm merely saying we as a country sheltered behind others in the past / let them do the dirty work. We have a history of wanting the spoils of the free world, let others fight the war against communism, the war fagainst terrorism etc but want to do little in return

bb1234567

Batsy wrote: »

There's no chance of Ireland being attacked by England any time soon. There is no such thing as a sovereign state known as England. You may as well argue that Ireland may get attacked by Rhode Island.

I know theres no chance we'll be attacked by them, England was just an example. What I meant is that a country that size or with that size population could easily overpower us, not that they will.

Batsy

bb1234567 wrote: »

I know theres no chance we'll be attacked by them, England was just an example. What I meant is that a country that size or with that size population could easily overpower us, not that they will.

Ireland can't get attacked by England. England isn't a country. England has about as much chance of atatcking Ireland as Connecticut, Alberta or New South Wales have.

paddyandy

We need more Guns in the Power of the State on this Island than others have outside the power of the state . Simple enough equation .

Doc Ruby

gigino wrote: »

Well said. We sheltered under the UK's umbrella during WW2, the cold war etc and let them fight it / do the dirty work ( with individuals volunteering from Ireland ).

gigino wrote: »

No need to be personal. I'm not say what we should do now or in the future. I'm merely saying we as a country sheltered behind others in the past / let them do the dirty work. We have a history of wanting the spoils of the free world, let others fight the war against communism, the war fagainst terrorism etc but want to do little in return

What's this "we" thing laddie. Its well known that both you and LordSutch are unionist loyalists from the north.

Milk & Honey

johnr1 wrote: »

There is GROSS abuse of public money in the defence forces. Archaic practices, Senoir officers on truly ridiculous pay levels, trained soldiers waiting on them hand and foot, silver service, personal dresser/clothes assistants etc.

This was confirmed to me by a serving soldier.

He also told me that most of the young lads with families in his unit are on family income support - this indicates VERY low rates of pay.

.

That is a joke. Officers pay is linked to civil service grades. There are only about 12 generals or equivalent. Most of them earn about the same as an assistant secretary in a government department. If they live in military housing they have an orderly. Most do not.
Most senior officers do not reach General level until they are in their 50s and they have to retire between the ages of 61 and 63. The vast bulk of their career is spent in the lower ranks on very ordinary salaries. Soldiers pay is bad. they cannot strike and force pay increases like others in the public service. Neither can officers. Apart from a handful who get a few years in a very senior rank most earn very little. The commanding officer of a major army barracks such as Collins Barracks, Cork earns less than the headmaster of a secondary school.

Mance Rayder

gigino wrote: »

No need to be personal. I'm not say what we should do now or in the future. I'm merely saying we as a country sheltered behind others in the past / let them do the dirty work. We have a history of wanting the spoils of the free world, let others fight the war against communism, the war fagainst terrorism etc but want to do little in return

War Against communism? Why it was the Communists who helped save Europe from the fascists don't you know? War against terrorism??? The only terrorist organisation here are the IRA who last time I checked were Republicans.

So who is fighting the terrorists to protect us?
Who is fighting the Communists?
Which communists?
Our Labour party are communists, are you aware they have infiltrated our government?

Richard

Batsy wrote: »

The British Army is the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not that of the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has its own, second rate, army.

And the UK is under no obligation to defend the Republic. If the Republic is under threat of invasion from a foreign power then the UK could well leave Ireland to fight its own battles unless the UK itself is under threat.

Any invasion of the republic of Ireland would be a direct threat to the UK. Not just Northern Ireland, but Great Britain as well.

And that's assuming that the republic would ever be invaded or attacked on purpose. There could be a potential wide-scale attack on Western Europe by some hostile force. In that case, the UK would be under threat as well.

As for terrorist attacks, the Irish Army and Garda can deal with these, by they from Irish terrorists or Islamic ones.

Terrontress

benwavner wrote: »

In regards to cash escorts. With the amount of tiger kidnappings and cash van raids that go on, not one military one has been compromised. I doubt any AGS ones have either but If I were to have a crack at a cash escort I know which one I would go for.......and its not the one with assault rifles.

It doesn't make it appropriate. You could have armed soldiers doing the security checks at the airport and it would undoubtedly improve security but it is a civil role and should therefore be undertaken by AGS or civilian agencies.

I am sure we could think of numerous situations where a green jeep with tooled up soldiers would help but, to my mind, a soldier's role should be primarily military. Where you have something predictable such as gaol security, cash transit, escorting prisoners; it should be done by a police force. Obviously where there is flooding, unexpected snow, rioting etc the PDF should help out as it is nor predictable.

There is a thread on Emergency Services forum talking about the excellence of the Garda Emeregency Response Unit but it would appear to me that the defence forces are doing a lot of the tough work that their counterparts elsewhere are doing.

The show Coppers which was on last Monday had English police shadowing cash in transit vans.

Terrontress

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

Bomb squads tend to be using military expertise in a civilian environment. There is no reason why the Gardaí should not perform that function if soldiers are trained primarily with domestic bombs in mind. If they are trained for military purposes and assist the government by using that training then it is easier to justify.

The Metropolitan Police in London has its own bomb squad.

London has a greater population than the whole of Ireland.
One cannot compare the Metropolitan Police with Garda Siochana.
They deal with different volumes of crimes.
With regard to bomb disposal, the same applies. Where these security alerts happen more frequently, you can justify the expense. For example, bomb disposal units are more needed in Northern Ireland by the PSNI, than they are needed by Garda Siohana in the Republic of Ireland.
Different Police services have different needs.

Of course they deal with different volumes of crimes but I'd wager that there are different numbers of personnel in the Met compared to AGS.

Your point would be valid if they had exactly the same resources.

KeithAFC

Batsy wrote: »

The British Army is the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not that of the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has its own, second rate, army.

And the UK is under no obligation to defend the Republic. If the Republic is under threat of invasion from a foreign power then the UK could well leave Ireland to fight its own battles unless the UK itself is under threat.

Absolutely. The Irish Republic would deserve no protection from the UK.

Terrontress

KeithAFC wrote: »

Batsy wrote: »

The British Army is the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not that of the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has its own, second rate, army.

And the UK is under no obligation to defend the Republic. If the Republic is under threat of invasion from a foreign power then the UK could well leave Ireland to fight its own battles unless the UK itself is under threat.

Absolutely. The Irish Republic would deserve no protection from the UK.

Of course they would. They are the closest EU state to the Republic, have a common travel area, have lent them bucketloads of money and share a land border.

tfitzgerald

KeithAFC wrote: »

Absolutely. The Irish Republic would deserve no protection from the UK.

Why not ? A lot of Irish people have given their life for the crown . Now I know in recent years the north if Ireland has given a lot of grief to the U K and the Brits would get rid Of the place if they could . But I still think the would help out the south . Are'nt we all good friends now . One last thing I don't think that we need an army

Peetrik

Richard Hillman wrote: »

To prevent any coup attempts

This would be the biggest reason for scrapping the army IMO, much greater than any financial incentive

Explosions in the Sky

My eyes please close this thread .....:D

Doc Ruby

Terrontress wrote: »

Of course they would. They are the closest EU state to the Republic, have a common travel area, have lent them bucketloads of money and share a land border.

Does anyone really care? Nobody would be insane enough to try and invade an EU country.

Capt'n Midnight

luckyfrank wrote: »

The brits should be our army, they have a proper army irish people join it anyways, it would save money

Nope.

costs money to run an army, sooner or later they'd ask us for a "purely nominal contribution" towards that cost, and we'd have to say yes.