Why does Ireland need a military/army?

bb1234567

The government is trying to find ways to cut back so why not scrap the army, I'm sure it costs a lot to run and maintain.We dont even have an airforce/submarines/missiles etc so its not like wed even be able to deal with a full on attack from another big country like England,Germany or China almost any country really, we'd be defeated within a day or two maybe less.
And since the IRA have given up their campaign we now have even less of a reason to retain an army. The only reason we need one is to help out with the UN, but we could pull out our army and maybe pull our weight by supplying the UN with a specialised garda force instead, that way we wouldnt need to maintain barracks around the country and that would be a better use of manpower and resources. I know we already have a problem with unemployment and this wont help, but maybe make the soldiers that didnt make into the specialised garda force for the UN normal gardai, we definitely do need a few more gardai patrolling our streets. That way unemployment wont go down but the government wont have to pay near as much to maintain an army thats of no use to us.

Smcgie

Someone has to put the sandbags down

44leto

To keep our culchie empire in check.

Sindri

I think we may have an obligation towards the U.N. with peace keeping missions.

Like being contractually obliged.

token101

So we scrap the army, create a 'special Garda force' comprised of people from the army, and send them on foreign missions. Wouldn't this special Garda force just be....the army?

mikemac1

Every department were given targets by An Bord Snip Nua

And Department of Defense was pretty much the only one to achieve them.
Plans were in to close Clonmel, Mullingar, Longford, I'm not sure about Lifford.

Do you remember the mess of decentralization?
Department of Defense have been in Renmore in Galway for a long time now

Money has already been saved, there is not much more to cut

And the Equestrian unit has a fantastic reputation and advertising the industry abroad.

For the waste that goes on in FÁS and HSE you could double the defense budget and create employment.

You're looking at the wrong target OP

Wicklowrider

How many times?

Here is one of the threads - it'll keep you going for the weekend

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75488418

ejmaztec

There should have been a much bigger army looking after the money and it wouldn't have all disappeared.

ChunkyLover_53

Q1 Will soldiers get garda wages when they change service?

Q2 Will soldiers get overtime for unsociable hours when they change service?

Q3 Will soldiers get the power of arrest when they change service?

Q4 If the answer is yes to any of the above where do they sign up?

Sindri

I can think of the financial incentive for scrapping the army but they are very useful.

Flooding - Send in the army.

Civil Unrest - Send in the army (to back up Gardaí for whatever purpose)

Explosives and explosive manufacturing facilities - The Army

Natural disaster - The Army


Fairly useful I think...

Richard Hillman

To guard portlaoise prison from terrorists

The secure large amounts of cash transfers

To prevent any coup attempts

To restore law and order in case it gets out of the gardas control

To assist in humanitarian relief after a natural disaster

I'm sure there are many more reasons, that's just off the top of my head.

44leto

The thing about an Army is it is not needed, till it is needed, it has treaty and constitutional obligations, it is also a pool of expertise a state needs. Example, the bomb disposal squad are up to their arse at the moment.

Also security, although we have a police force, that is a different discipline, when the state needs a disciplined armed force for international visits, the Army are the only ones that can do this and they do it well.

"You want peace prepare for war" Plutarch

ChunkyLover_53

Richard Hillman wrote: »

To guard portlaoise prison from terrorists....

If they really want it they can have it...the decór is terrible

alphasully

Sindri wrote: »

I can think of the financial incentive for scrapping the army but they are very useful.

Flooding - Send in the army.

Civil Unrest - Send in the army (to back up Gardaí for whatever purpose)

Explosives and explosive manufacturing facilities - The Army

Natural disaster - The Army


Fairly useful I think...

Richard Hillman wrote: »

To guard portlaoise prison from terrorists

The secure large amounts of cash transfers

To prevent any coup attempts

To restore law and order in case it gets out of the gardas control

To assist in humanitarian relief after a natural disaster

I'm sure there are many more reasons, that's just off the top of my head.

And all for a budget of less that 1 Billion euro per annum

LordSutch

bb1234567 wrote: »

Why does Ireland need a military/army?

We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

Sindri

LordSutch wrote: »

We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

True they are our greatest ally, and also our locational importance. If you have Ireland you have a tactical advantage over the North Atlantic and Western Europe.

Notorious97

We dont need a foreign army looking after our own people or interests. We have a well trained and disciplined army at the moment.

Most people i know are actually proud of our army when it comes to oversee missions etc, the army serves Ireland and serves it well.

We have a tonne of embarassing departments etc which represent Ireland, why scrap one that does its job well regarding the areas other posters have mentioned, id prefer to scrap the gardai and keep the army to be honest

mongdesade

Ireland, like any sovereign nation has it's own as well as international obligations.

It's own includes the supervision of fishing in it's terittorial waters, the entrance of all peoples & goods at recognised entry points for proper supervision & in times of emergency the added search & rescue capacity to help those in need.

It may also be used to keep civil order where the peace of the citizens & their government is under internal or external threat.

Internationally our defence forces represent Ireland in peace keeping efforts at various hot spots around the globe & may also be used for international emergencies, should their highly developed skills be needed.

We have the lowest if not the third lowest spenditure in Europe on defence per capita (after Luxembourg & Malta) http://www.eda.europa.eu/defencefacts/ & in return our defence forces punch well above their weight on the international stage for such a small nation on the global scale.

Our defence forces are an extension of our sovereignty as a nation & the work they carry out overseas in a UN/EUFOR capacity is one of saving lives & bringing peace to troubled nations.

They are our best ambassadors & are internationally perceived as such in Lebanon,Chad,Timor, Congo...the list goes on.

Our Army Ranger Wing (Fionnógalach) are amongst the best elite units in the world, on a par with the SAS, Delta Force, Seals, 2Rep etc...

In conclusion...the Irish tax payer is getting an exceptionally good service for their tax €'s !

Sindri

Notorious97 wrote: »

We dont need a foreign army looking after our own people or interests. We have a well trained and disciplined army at the moment.

Most people i know are actually proud of our army when it comes to oversee missions etc, the army serves Ireland and serves it well.

We have a tonne of embarassing departments etc which represent Ireland, why scrap one that does its job well regarding the areas other posters have mentioned, id prefer to scrap the gardai and keep the army to be honest

Ah, you're in favour of a military dictatorship. If O' Duffy had his way maybe...just maybe...

Chuck Stone

LordSutch wrote: »

We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

The Army of Great Britain will never be 'our' army no matter how much you fantasise about it.

British soldiers on the streets in this republic? You must be fucking joking or you're living in some strange little quasi-unionist bubble you've created for yourself.

The BA couldn't even be successfully deployed up north and had to travel by helicopter in many areas because they couldn't suppress the locals.

Lol.

SafeSurfer

mongdesade wrote: »

Our Army Ranger Wing (Fionnógalach) are amongst the best elite units in the world, on a par with the SAS, Delta Force, Seals, 2Rep etc...

In conclusion...the Irish tax payer is getting an exceptionally good service for their tax €'s !

This is another of those statements trotted out without any backup.

The army ranger wing is one of the best elite units in the world.

The Irish army is one of the best trained military in guerrilla tactics.

Its nonsense.
Can you list even half a dozen missions that the rangers proved themselves the equal of any elite unit in the world?

What do Irish citizens get for our money? Soldiers guarding cash in transit and soldiers marching in provincial towns on St. Patrick's Day.

Irish soldiers are paid more to sit around drinking coffee than British soldiers are on active duty in Afghanistan.

What did Ireland gain from our participation in the UN mission to Chad?
Increased international standing and kudos?
Punching above our weight in international affairs?

Run_to_da_hills

Another solution would be to merge the army with Gardai together to form an Italian style Carabinieri.

You don't mess with these guys and if it would ever happen to this the country we would be on well on the way down the slippery slope.

Kennie1

I'd keep the army but I would put them to work and have them out every night patroling the likes of tallagh and limrick where there seems to be all out war going on between all the scum bags and drug dealers who end up shooting young girls and rugby players accidently.

Milk & Honey

LordSutch wrote: »

We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

Protected by Great Britain? Mr. Churchill wanted to invade during the second world war. The only reason he didn't is because we had an army which would have tied down his troops in Ireland for too long. Had we been taken over by the British we would not have been neutral and been a target for the Germans.
Neutral states can be attacked if it suits the belligerents to do so.

Sindri

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Protected by Great Britain? Mr. Churchill wanted to invade during the second world war. The only reason he didn't is because we had an army which would have tied down his troops in Ireland for too long. Had we been taken over by the British we would not have been neutral and been a target for the Germans.
Neutral states can be attacked if it suits the belligerents to do so.

Britain is our closest ally. Churchill wanted Ireland for our tactical importance and to negate any advantage the Nazi's may have gotten if they successfully invaded.

Any country that has Ireland could so serious damage to the Eastern Seaboard of the United Sates. And it would have a tactical advantage over the North Atlantic and the West of Europe.

Britain or America would never allow that.

That's why the Yanks and Churchill were so pissed with us not joining the war.

bb1234567

Sindri wrote: »

I can think of the financial incentive for scrapping the army but they are very useful.

Flooding - Send in the army.

Civil Unrest - Send in the army (to back up Gardaí for whatever purpose)

Explosives and explosive manufacturing facilities - The Army

Natural disaster - The Army


Fairly useful I think...

Good point, but just on your las point, Ireland doesnt really get any natural disasters does it? Bar some flooding or a bit of snow in winter We dont get hurricanes,torandoes,very bad storms, tsunamis,earthquakes,bad blizzards, extremely high or low temps, monsoons,forest fires,volcanic eruptions,severe flooding etc We're pretty lucky I guess, even if we must live with our constant boring weather grey wet mild weather.

Chuck Stone

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

We don't really have an Army, we have a Defence Force. The "army" fulfills a wide arrange of civil functions in a fairly organised and reasonably efficient (for the civil service) manner. Its mobilised in many civil emergencies, such as strikes by frontline civil servants, floods - the army was the only way around clonmel a few years ago during chronic floods. the army was sent to donegal during those wildfires earlier in the year.

The also move cash around the country, and provide backup for the gardai.

Most importantly though, they go overseas to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Ireland has a proud history of serving as peacekeepers in conflilcts around the world. There is no economic gain in this, we do it purely because it is the right thing to do.

The army is also well respected internationally. The rangers are well known as highly trained special forces unit. Irish officers are often chosen to head up EU or UN international forces.

<my snip>

If we were to get rid of anyone from the public paybooks how about all those pencil pushers and wasters that are littered throughout every state body.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75489758&postcount=32

This ^^.

Quote pulled from Politics.

mongdesade

SafeSurfer - This is another of those statements trotted out without any backup.
The army ranger wing is one of the best elite units in the world.

Ex ARW are in especially high demand by PMC's/PSC's such as Executive Outcomes, Academi (formerly Xe Services LLC/Blackwater Worldwide), Aegis, Diligence Inc., The Sandi Group, to name but a few... due to their exemplary record of performing at the highest standards & their professionalism.

bb1234567

Sort of off topic but does anyone think gardai should be allowed to carry guns. I'm undecided ,having and not having guns both have their pros and cons.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

In 1999 I joined the PDF. I have been in the Defence Forces for just over 12 years now. It's what I have always wanted to do. I also spent 2 years, while in secondary school in the RDF (FCA at the time) in preperation for joining up.

Instead of going to college when I was 18/19 to study and eventually get a degree or a masters, and a well paid job. I went to Recruit Training. No words on an internet forum can accurately describe the experience of what its like to turn from a civillian to a soldier. I find the words "Hardship, pain and pride" to cover most bases.

Instead of travelling the World for a year in self discovery when I was 19. I travelled to a war torn country in the Middle East, Lebanon, hoping to help people a whole lot less fortunate than myself. If you have never been to place like this, where you are an open target, please respect people who have. It's not as easy as you think.

The Defence Forces has given me a lot of things. It has given me discipline, strength, respect, humility, honesty and pride. It has given me the opportunity for a life of modesty. It has given me financial security (as long as I am fit for the job). It has given me the chance to buy a house and have a family.

I have completed many gruelling military courses, courses that ensure I am as good a soldier as any other army. We do not have "cutting edge" equiptment, but what we do have is sufficient for our needs. We do not waste money like people think.

Despite who you know in the DF or what you think you know about the DF, we are very, very well trained (even the guy you know, who is a total asshole or the guy you see buying a brekkie roll in the local Spar) Luckily, the skills I have, hopefully will never be needed in this country. If the day ever comes that my skills are needed here, then I will be there no questions asked. I will perform my job with utmost professionalism and I will be backed up by my other well trained commerades.

The truth is, I am there working in the backround. You see soldiers going to and from work. You see soldiers protecting cash vans and cash carrying civillians. You see soldiers on the roof of Portlaoise prison. You see soldiers disposing of hoax/viable bombs where your kids play. You see soldiers fixing lifts in flat complexes and helping elderly people with their shopping. You see soldiers stepping in when other services are on strike. You see sailors intercepting drug runners, you see Naval divers searching for people missing at sea, you see the Air Corps transporting vital organs, medical emergencies and search and resuce operations.

What you dont see are the 24 hour shifts, the training that is undertaken by all these service people. The jobs that are done overseas. The muck/river/mountains/ that I have been in. Have you ever lived in a flooded hole for a week? Have you ever crapped into a ziplock bag? Have you ever missed sleep for a week while expected to perform to your highest standards and make decisions that will affect lives? Have you ever patrolled through foreign jungles / minefields / villages / Have you ever gone to places where you have seen the effects of war? Have you ever met a man whose hands were cut off so he could not vote? Have yoou ever met the orphan girl whose family were machete'd to death in front of her while she was being raped?

Well soldiers have, I have.

I and my colleagues have served in these places and experienced these things.

"why does Ireland need a military/army?" - Maybe we dont, but someone somewhere was glad to see a well trained benwavner when they needed them.

"We the willing, lead by the unknown are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little that we are now experts in doing anything with nothing"

tl:dr- sack the army!

mongdesade

bb1234567 wrote: »

Sort of off topic but does anyone think gardai should be allowed to carry guns. I'm undecided ,having and not having guns both have their pros and cons.

As long as they are provided with the appropriate training & continual skills/psychological assessment, I personally don't see why they should not be armed in this day & age...just my 2 cents !

SafeSurfer

Not to mention the vital role the Irish army play in tormenting fat feckers on Operation Transformation. Truly tax payers money well spent.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not to mention the vital role the Irish army play in tormenting fat feckers on Operation Transformation. Truly tax payers money well spent.

Good argument....well done!

Wicklowrider

The night one of my neighbours houses was booby trapped with two viable devices EVERYONE was glad their property and safety was protected. The "Bomb Squad" left the site safe and were deployed to a viable device in Dundalk a few hours later. Think about that - they go to work and face death or massive injury as a matter of course. Take the Liberian hostage rescue by the ARW for another example. If a foreign army pulled off an operation like that we'd have pages of posts on boards from the internet soldiers - but because they were Irish we'll ignore it.It challenges popular perception about our lads abilities.The Irish Sniper duo placing second in Fort Benning in international competition ( the winning U.S Special force team included an ex Irish Army Sergeant ) - not a word on the news for the same reason. Could the PDF be improved? I'm sure it could. Could it be more cost efficient ? I'm sure it could. Should we get rid of it? Not in my opinion. I like the security of knowing there are able,trained and disciplined and honourable personnel ready to protect my family and my property and my freedom.

Leo Dowling

LordSutch wrote: »

We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their (our) proper highly equipped army with Irish regiments.

*We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their proper highly equipped army who are always going to be 'de facto' protected by the United States of America and their properly equipped army.

kirving

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not to mention the vital role the Irish army play in tormenting fat feckers on Operation Transformation. Truly tax payers money well spent.

What's wrong with promoting health and physical fitness on national television? As far as I can seen, that helps everyone.

44leto

Also a crucial role for the Naval service and the Aer Corp is fisheries protection. We have the grand fleet of factory ships more then willing to enter our zone and strip it bare and disobey any EU fishing regulations.

Now we could radio the vessels, that is if we know they are in our zone (which I will add is one of the richest fishing grounds in the world) and threaten them with bad language. But I seriously doubt that would work.

This saves us millions and millions a year and protects our fishing stock for future generations. Plus they perform anti drug smuggling operations as well

The defense forces IMO are an example of the PS at its best, they are not overly paid, or overly expensive, they are highly disciplined and a credit to Ireland wherever they perform their duties abroad or at home.

Nodin

Leo Dowling wrote: »

*We don't need an army now, neither did we during the 2nd World War. We are 'de facto' always going to be protected by Great Britain & their proper highly equipped army who are always going to be 'de facto' protected by the United States of America and their properly equipped army.

And - taking that to be true for the sake of argument - you think thats a desirable state of affairs?

Dyr

Because binmen go on strike

And the Equestrian unit has a fantastic reputation and advertising the industry abroad.

A fantastic reputation? Among the international horsey set? Superb :pac:

Does the industry still have all those ridiculous grants and tax breaks that mccreevy gave it?

44leto

Bambi wrote: »

Because binmen go on strike



A fantastic reputation? Among the international horsey set? Superb :pac:

Does the industry still have all those ridiculous grants and tax breaks that mccreevy gave it?

That was one of that plonkers better ideas. The bloodstock industry in Ireland is world renowned and a huge earner, its a multi billion euro industry and its irish.

It also in a way has set us up for our next target, the government is trying to attract online gambling industries here, its the future of betting and will be another multi billion euro earner,

Doc Ruby

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Actually I'd like to see the air force and navy in particular get a few more shekels towards surveillance drones, those are a spectacularly cost effective way to patrol our quite extensive waters.

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, we could scrap the Irish airforce:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081103015449/uncyclopedia/images/9/9d/Irish_airforce.png

Explosions in the Sky

OP if the army bomb squad was non existent there would be alot dead people this year and last etc, an army is a necessity for every country imo

bb1234567

Explosions in the Sky wrote: »

OP if the army bomb squad was non existent there would be alot dead people this year and last etc, an army is a necessity for every country imo

Costa rica and Iceland have no army and theyre doing fine,but ye youre right an army is helpful it shouldnt be scrapped:)

bb1234567

bb1234567 wrote: »

Costa rica and Iceland have no army and theyre doing fine,but ye youre right an army is helpful it shouldnt be scrapped:)

Whatever about Costa Rica, Iceland has a "roll over and take it" attitude.

Wikipedia: Invasion of Iceland

bb1234567

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever about Costa Rica, Iceland has a "roll over and take it" attitude.

Wikipedia: Invasion of Iceland

I doubt Ireland would do any better if attacked by either Britain or Germany,well maybe theyd put up a bit of a better fight:p

dr.fuzzenstein

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever about Costa Rica, Iceland has a "roll over and take it" attitude.

Wikipedia: Invasion of Iceland

Whatever about Iceland, but I don't think the Brits will invade here again in a hurry.

al28283

Nodin wrote: »

And - taking that to be true for the sake of argument - you think thats a desirable state of affairs?

Absolutely!

Nodin

al28283 wrote: »

Absolutely!

...despite the fact it might mean having to be involved in extremely dubious matters which are not in our national interest....

al28283

Nodin wrote: »

...despite the fact it might mean having to be involved in extremely dubious matters which are not in our national interest....

National interest or not... If we are in the position of having to defend against a nation seriously trying to invade Ireland, we are going to be facing some dubious matters on a daily basis, and even with a well funded, well trained army we are still going to be associating with other nations. Every country under threat of invasion has

kieranfitz

Oh joy, a why don't we scrap the Army, sure we don't even need one, and who'd ever have a pop at neutral Ireland, doesn't everyone love us. We haven't had one of these in at least a month. Cue the en-mass arrival of hand wringing crustys bitching about how even having the DF violates our "constitutional neutrality" that doesn't and never did exist. And worse the fat celtic jersey wearing armchair provos thinking that an extended trip to Newry is a good idea.