Prison system

Ellie2008

Hi all,

I'm hoping to put together a paper on the reform of our prisons and I was hoping to get people's opinions on this question:

If someone is found guilty of a crime is detention in itself a sufficient punishment or do you think they should be subject to the poor conditions in our prisons at present notwithstanding that the conditions are in breach of many international human rights laws and have been widely criticised by the international community?

44leto

Woe don't start me,,44leto just step away from this thread,

Ahhh I would pack them in sidewards i think Bangkok could teach the Irish how to run a prison properly.

Tonto86

Depends on the crime.

For robbery and assault, yes. Pedophilia, rape and murder, no

KKkitty

Depending on the severity of the crime detention is clearly not enough. Let's just say someone killed an innocent human being, they get put away for a few years and have a roof over their heads, learning courses to rehabilitate them for when they are released, activities and 3 square meals a day. What does their victim get, an unfair and untimely death. The victims family have also been robbed of a family member. It does seem like in this country the judicial system needs to be brought into the 21st century.

UsernameInUse

We have let those in power go wild with their definition of a crime. A crime should be defined as an act on your part that infringes on others - to this end, those charged for victimless crimes would not be backing up the incarcerated numbers.

Severe punishments for murder, theft, rape and fraud - life imprisonment with the option of euthanasia while incarcerated in a private prison system would sort out any messing around. So how do we keep the streets safe? Privatise them and allow the owners to employ security firms on ever corner. The judicial system is a mess - government cannot do anything right.

gcgirl

Tonto86 wrote: »

Depends on the crime.

For robbery and assault, yes. Pedophilia, rape and murder, no

Pretty much what I think too
And if you don't do any rehabilitation courses you should not be released

Giselle

The ideal in my mind is the deprivation of freedom, coupled with rehabilitation and education, so that when offenders are released they have a decent shot at becoming productive and valued members of society.

Instead of being so dehumanised that they are doomed to repeat the behaviours and mistakes of the past.

The length of the sentence should be commensurate with the crime, of course.

I doubt this will be a popular opinion.

Ellie2008

Giselle wrote: »

The ideal in my mind is the depravation of freedom coupled with rehabilitation and education so that when offenders are released they have a decent shot at becoming productive and valued members of society.

Instead of being so dehumanised that they are doomed to repeat the behaviours and mistakes of the past.

I doubt this will be a popular opinion.

You have summarised my view on the matter. I think John Longergan once said if you treat people like animals how can you justify acting surprised when they behave like animals.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Depends on that you hoep to achieve through incarceration. If ti's punishment, then yes; if it's rehabilitaiton, then no.

Cianos

Prison is only one part of the system. Prison itself isn't a solution to anything except the need to isolate some people away from the rest of society for an amount of time.

Odysseus

Giselle wrote: »

The ideal in my mind is the deprivation of freedom, coupled with rehabilitation and education, so that when offenders are released they have a decent shot at becoming productive and valued members of society.

Instead of being so dehumanised that they are doomed to repeat the behaviours and mistakes of the past.

The length of the sentence should be commensurate with the crime, of course.

I doubt this will be a popular opinion.

Yeah well of course your going to the references to Holiday Camps and the like. My work has involved working with people whilst they are locked up, in the 15 years since my first prison visit, I have never seen anything like a holiday camp. In fact Mountjoy is in such a state it should be closed down.

I don't think anyone who has ever been in Mountjoy could stand over its use today, people need to be locked up to serve their sentence, but we need to correct facilities to do so.

Cicero

Ellie2008 wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm hoping to put together a paper on the reform of our prisons and I was hoping to get people's opinions on this question:

?

Considering the 1985 Whitaker Committee report on prisons has yet to be implemented, I really think you're wasting your time....

mikemac1

Pat Kenny show have roving reporters around the country

Since you're interested in this topic OP you should check out the podcasts. There on RTÉ website or itunes

They covered Limerick prison and interviewed some visitors and the chaplain.
Sounds like a right hole of a place

Ellie2008

mikemac1 wrote: »

Pat Kenny show have roving reporters around the country

Since you're interested in this topic OP you should check out the podcasts. There on RTÉ website or itunes

They covered Limerick prison and interviewed some visitors and the chaplain.
Sounds like a right hole of a place

Thanks, I will that's very helpful

Ellie2008

Odysseus wrote: »

Yeah well of course your going to the references to Holiday Camps and the like. My work has involved working with people whilst they are locked up, in the 15 years since my first prison visit, I have never seen anything like a holiday camp. In fact Mountjoy is in such a state it should be closed down.

I don't think anyone who has ever been in Mountjoy could stand over its use today, people need to be locked up to serve their sentence, but we need to correct facilities to do so.

I have been in Mountjoy once, it was a few years ago when the Dochas centre was not as overcrowded as it is now, I do remember seeing food on the floor of the men's prison and thinking it was quite grim, I have since read more about it and am in shock, a lot of people in there to quote John Lonergan again (I am a fan) are "more sinned against then sinning" in my view and should be treated as humanly as possible and given a serious chance of building a life on the outside. The State has failed minor offenders, Ray Burke apparently stock in Mountjoy and called prisons "scum" (a bit pot-kettle there me thinks).

I realise none of the recommended reforms have been implemented but what is the harm is drawing public attention to the issue again if nothing else to make people aware of the conditions.

starviewadams

Mountjoy is in shocking condition,on basic human rights levels it should've been closed a long time ago.You'll get the usual shower who will say ''sure thats good enough for them'',but if the state has chosen to incarcerate someone then the state should be prepared to do it properly.Ie at least provide adequate sanitary and safe prisoner space conditions.

Potential-Monke

Most people won't share my views, but i will share them for the purpose of research:

I believe deprivation coupled with horrible conditions should be introduced for the most violent and dangerous criminals. Solitary confinement, bread and water meals, no luxury or mod-cons, no interaction with anyone but prison staff, menial tasks like breaking rocks with tiny hammers. Break them down, break them down until they are a shadow of their former selves. Then rehabilitate. Let them know that these conditions will be punishment for re-offending, but for longer and worse.

As for other criminals, depending on the crime, varying degrees of punishment. Avoiding payments: current prisoner conditions would do. Burglary, theft, or non-assault crime: worse conditions than what is currently there. Assault crimes: half way to deprivation as above. And rape, murder, manslaghter, etc: see above.

I am not against rehabilitation, but the current system does not punish enough to allow rehabilitation to work in all cases. If the first bit of time for a crime doesn't work with the current system, then use my method.

And for all you people who don't agree, grand, fine, but keep it to yourself. This is my opinion.

Omackeral

Just a small snippet to add. We seem to be only concerned about the prisoners who are locked up inside. What about the staff? They've to spend 12 hours a day in these conditions also.

I think it's in everyones' best interests that facilties are, at the least, humane. This business of slopping out is archaic,dehumanising and degrading. It should neverhave made it past the 19th century, never mind the 20th.

At present, there are works going on inside Mountjoy Prison to bring it up to a better standard. They are installing toilets in all cells as we speak. And rightly so. Next time you think every one has it handy inside, imagine taking a sh1t or p1ss into a bucket in front of a someone you hardly know in an 8x12ft room. And if your reply to that is ''sure they deserve it'', then think of the Officer who'll probably end up with that faeces or urine all over him when something kicks off.

lividduck

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Most people won't share my views, but i will share them for the purpose of research:

I believe deprivation coupled with horrible conditions should be introduced for the most violent and dangerous criminals. Solitary confinement, bread and water meals, no luxury or mod-cons, no interaction with anyone but prison staff, menial tasks like breaking rocks with tiny hammers. Break them down, break them down until they are a shadow of their former selves. Then rehabilitate. Let them know that these conditions will be punishment for re-offending, but for longer and worse.

As for other criminals, depending on the crime, varying degrees of punishment. Avoiding payments: current prisoner conditions would do. Burglary, theft, or non-assault crime: worse conditions than what is currently there. Assault crimes: half way to deprivation as above. And rape, murder, manslaghter, etc: see above.

I am not against rehabilitation, but the current system does not punish enough to allow rehabilitation to work in all cases. If the first bit of time for a crime doesn't work with the current system, then use my method.

And for all you people who don't agree, grand, fine, but keep it to yourself. This is my opinion.

Tried and ........FAILED

mikemac1

Isn't it the case though that the womens prisons in Mountjoy is modern, well at least in good condition

While the men are slopping out and sleeping on mattresses on the floor

I suppose if it were the other way around the media would have screamed and it would have been sorted long ago

MagicMarker

Living conditions should always be humane but basic.

What we need is cold hard labour.

Potential-Monke

lividduck wrote: »

Tried and ........FAILED

With the rehabilitation at the end, or without?

lividduck

Imprisonment is legally only the deprivation of your liberty, nothing else, its purposes are mainly to protect society and to to deter others, since we still have prisons after all these centuries, and prison numbers are growing it is fair to say that it doesnt really work.
Those who demand bread and water, or other draconian remedies should bear in mind that such remedies are neither legal nor allowable.

Chuck Stone

Tonto86 wrote: »

Depends on the crime.

For robbery and assault, yes. Pedophilia, rape and murder, no

What?

Are these two distinct groups or something?

amacachi

If someone is going to be released in the future it's pretty self-defeating to have them treated as badly as some would like. Stupid to lock people up for 6 months, treat them like ****, release them and expect them to do not do worse than before.

Odysseus

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And for all you people who don't agree, grand, fine, but keep it to yourself. This is my opinion.

Well everyone is entitled to their own, but out of interest have you ever physically seen the inside of our prisons.

Sky King

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yndfqN1VKhY

Tonto86

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Tonto86 wrote: »

Depends on the crime.

For robbery and assault, yes. Pedophilia, rape and murder, no

What?

Are these two distinct groups or something?

No but the crimes are worse and show a side of a personality that is dangerous and destructive to society, its usually unchanged by a prison sentence.

The victims of these crimes have to live with the effects for the rest of their life, sometimes it can be emotionally crippling, causing them to exist in fear, depression and self loathing. It's unfair the person that causes these effects can walk free and continue on with their life while the victim continues to suffer.

Omackeral

mikemac1 wrote: »

Isn't it the case though that the womens prisons in Mountjoy is modern, well at least in good condition

While the men are slopping out and sleeping on mattresses on the floor

I suppose if it were the other way around the media would have screamed and it would have been sorted long ago

I agree with you Mike. However you must understand that while the males and females prisons are literaly a stones' throw from each other physically, Mountjoy opened in 1850 while the Dochas Centre was built in 1998.

In Mountjoy Prison old habits die hard, and a lot of the old ways have continued on down through different Governorships.
For a comparitive, the Midlands prison was opened in 1999 and is far cleaner and more humane. We hear considerably lesser horror stories of inmates running riot there. There's an obvious factor as to why this is.

starviewadams

Cloverhill and Wheafield are both decent enough too in comparison to Mountjoy,which is absolutely apalling.

mikemac1

No money available

Well Michael McDowell had a budget and bought land but I don't see any progress since then

A prison can last over a century, this should have been sorted in the last decade.

Now the politician who allocates several million to the prisons will be asked why spend it there where there are nursing homes in shocking states and elderly patients being ignored and living in squalor within these homes.
And it's a fair question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leas_Cross_scandal

Not trying to go offtopic, just it's the inevitable question if Alan Shatter announces big money plan for Mountjoy

Omackeral

starviewadams wrote: »

Cloverhill and Wheafield are both decent enough too in comparison to Mountjoy,which is absolutely apalling.

Again, this is indicative of when they were built. Mountjoy was built in 1850, under British Rule. This was basically a hard labour camp with zero facilities.

Wheatfield and Cloverhill on the other hand were built around the time of the Celtic Tiger and would have been state of the art. It would make no sense to have them start out under Draconian conditions.

I'm not saying it's right. It's just possibly a reason why things are the way they are.

telekon

You're putting together a paper? Like a government white paper?


The country is so broke, the government has to seek 'professional' advice from After Hours...:pac:

44leto

Unless something catastrophic happens to me, or by some blind faith I am the victim of an injustice, I will never go to prison, I am certain of that.

In my mind, to end up in prison is a choice, one they don't have to make, so fkuc em is what i say. They really didn't have to end up there.

saywhatyousee

Why have prisons at all what is "right and wrong" is in fact just a matter of people's opinion's think about it!!

44leto

saywhatyousee wrote: »

Why have prisons at all what is "right and wrong" is in fact just a matter of people's opinion's think about it!!

Because society needs laws to protect society, that decides what is right and wrong in society. You need a system of deterrents to uphold this law.

starviewadams

44leto wrote: »

Unless something catastrophic happens to me, or by some blind faith I am the victim of an injustice, I will never go to prison, I am certain of that.

In my mind, to end up in prison is a choice, one they don't have to make, so fkuc em is what i say. They really didn't have to end up there.

A well thought out and considered thought process.

44leto

starviewadams wrote: »

A well thought out and considered thought process.

Why thank you kind sir.

saywhatyousee

44leto wrote: »

Because society needs laws to protect society, that decides what is right and wrong in society. You need a system of deterrents to uphold this law.

Laws decide on what is right and wrong in society?What if i did not vote for the current government sounds like persecution by the majority.Surely there should be a referendum every time the "Law" is changed.

mikemac1

Spot the anarchist

Next thing you'll be telling us you don't believe in private property and the land belongs to every Irish citizen

And ten thousand farmers are fetching their shotguns for you :eek:

saywhatyousee

mikemac1 wrote: »

Spot the anarchist

Next thing you'll be telling us you don't believe in private property and the land belongs to every Irish citizen

And ten thousand farmers are fetching their shotguns for you :eek:

What are you talking about of course i believe in private property???

byhookorbycrook

John Lonergan gave us a talk and the major factor in common for a huge amount of prisoners is poor literacy. He makes the point that it's a lot cheaper to set up proper pre-school intervention that to house one prisoner for a year.

later12

"The better the actual state of our prisons is known and understood, the more clearly will all men see the necessity of those arrangements, by which they may be rendered schools of industry and virtue, instead of the very nurseries of crime"

- Elizabeth Fry, Notes on a visit made to some of the Prisons.


Elizabeth Fry wrote her wise epistle in 1819. Almost 200 years later and we have not learned how to rehabilitate the common criminal. The system of incarceration employed in Ireland today is an ineffective and as irrational as it was two centuries ago. I would rather raze the prisons to the ground than have them maintained in their current order.

Irish prisons are no schools of industry. They remain the nursery not only of crime, but of a cheapened, denigrated level of human identity. We treat our prisoners appallingly, and they treat us appallingly in kind.

I would encourage anyone who is not yet convinced of the levels of humanitarian reform and intervention needed within the prison system to read the compelling reports of the former Inspector of Prisons, the late Mr Justice Dermot Kinlen.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/4thAnnRpt.pdf/Files/4thAnnRpt.pdf

bubbuz

Serious offenders, ie murderers, rapists, child abusers..... leave them in the appalling conditions of the modern day Irish prison.

Other offenders, ie assault, burglary, fraud etc....... bring back the chain gang, get them out doing hard labour, repairing our roads etc and get people moved off the dole and placed as security whilst the offenders are out. Money far better spent than improving prison conditions..... prisoners MADE to work for nothing, our roads being improved and less people on the dole

Odysseus

Omackeral wrote: »

Again, this is indicative of when they were built. Mountjoy was built in 1850, under British Rule. This was basically a hard labour camp with zero facilities.

Wheatfield and Cloverhill on the other hand were built around the time of the Celtic Tiger and would have been state of the art. It would make no sense to have them start out under Draconian conditions.

I'm not saying it's right. It's just possibly a reason why things are the way they are.

It was initally one man one cell, and each cell had a toilet when the brits first bulit it.

later12

bubbuz wrote: »

prisoners MADE to work for nothing, our roads being improved and less people on the dole

Apart from the fact that your suggestion would run into trouble with EU law, explain how exactly prisoners (who are generally unskilled labourers) working for nothing would realistically lower dole queues.

I mean I could see how they could take jobs from the labour force, but "lower" dole queues?

44leto

saywhatyousee wrote: »

Laws decide on what is right and wrong in society?What if i did not vote for the current government sounds like persecution by the majority.Surely there should be a referendum every time the "Law" is changed.

Its called a referendum and no you are born into the legality of that, it was invented by the Americans it is kind of a rights of man, or a rights of citizenship, if you go though human history it is actually a human achievement which started with the magna carta, it means you my dear chap have some sacred rights. Which is protected by a constitution, you are special and privileged, and many in this world of 8 billion envy you.

Jesus Wept

bubbuz wrote: »

Serious offenders, ie murderers, rapists, child abusers..... leave them in the appalling conditions of the modern day Irish prison.

As much as you may dislike it or wish to see it changed, most of these people are released at some point.

Can you not see that it would be better for society if when they were released, it wasn't after zero rehabilitation attempts and having been treated and taught to live like a feral animal for 20 odd years up to the day prior to being release back onto the streets?

Or do you want them to continue to rape, murder and abuse the people and children of the land?

Cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Ellie2008

telekon wrote: »

You're putting together a paper? Like a government white paper?


The country is so broke, the government has to seek 'professional' advice from After Hours...:pac:

No, I wish, I'm doing a course out of personal interest but I would hope to get an article published somewhere on the state of our prisons as it is my hope that maybe if the wider public knew more about the conditions in Mountjoy they would have more sympathy for those locked up there, therefore if the Minister did try push reforms through he wouldn't meet with a public backlash. Its quite ambitious I know and judging from the response to the poll maybe naive but a girl can dream!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ellie2008 wrote: »

No, I wish, I'm doing a course out of personal interest but I would hope to get an article published somewhere on the state of our prisons as it is my hope that maybe if the wider public knew more about the conditions in Mountjoy they would have more sympathy for those locked up there, therefore if the Minister did try push reforms through he wouldn't meet with a public backlash. Its quite ambitious I know and judging from the response to the poll maybe naive but a girl can dream!

People are not going to have much sympathy for a convicted criminal, especially if he's a repeat offender.

If the Minister pushes through reforms, I would hope he'd have enough sense to try and do something that would reduce recidvism rathre than just punish more, but a boy can dream too!