New arrivals and returning emigrants denied insurance

MadsL

Spoke to my insurance company yesterday to help out a friend. He's 33, full EU licence since 93 and here for the last 9 months. The insurance company flatly refused him insurance on a 700cc car worth less than 4k. Apparently he needs to be in the country for 24 months out of the last 36.

Now this is where it gets interesting, after I said that they were discriminating they said they also would not insure any Irish who were out of the country for 36 months when they came back either. I clarified and they said that even if the returning emigree was a previous customer, they would still refuse to insure for 2 years.

Now this insurance company must be doing well if they can afford to discard customers...I'm disgusted with them in honesty and I'm making a formal complaint as a customer.

What do we think people?

cgarrad

They are going on past experience and data analysis to make their decision.

Private companies don't turn down good business especially in a recession.

Some other crowd that cater for higher risk will take on the policy, ring around.

garhjw

cgarrad wrote: »

They are going on past experience and data analysis to make their decision.

Private companies don't turn down good business especially in a recession.

Some other crowd that cater for higher risk will take on the policy, ring around.

exactly what cgarrad said. they have made that decision based on analysis and profiling. keep ringing around and you will find someone. it does suck but thats business....

dr.fuzzenstein

Don't you know that Irish insurance companies will only insure you if your name is Mary, 27 years old, with no more than two penalty points, you live in Dublin city center and drive a Peugeot 207?
I don't know where they get their statistics from, there has to be a certain subsection of "fordeigners" that caused a lot of accidents, so this rule came about.
It's absolutely nuts, not everywhere in the world is complete anarchy on the roads, surely a lot of Irish people have been to the UK, Australia, mainland Europe, all of those places not exactly known for daily carnage on the roads.
My guess is that they just couldn't be arsed to get some proper data or couldn't be arsed to properly look at it, so one guy stood up and said "let's not insure anyone who has been out fordeign!" to thunderous applause whilst being carried out of the room on the shoulders of his co-workers.
I can only extrapolate here, but the resulting decisions usually taken by the insurance industry here over the years always bring me back to this scenario.
The rule is, if it's no problem anywhere else on the planet, it has to be a complete nightmare and impossible here.
It has improved over the years, but trying to get insurance here in the early days was like trying to negotiate a trade agreement with Nigeria. Many rules and regulations seem contrived, senseless, only exist to make things difficult and many hastily invented "special charges" apply.

positron

I know of (and posted here about it too) at least one case where the premium went up significantly based on the 'country of birth', irrespective of the fact the person in question has been living here for nearly a decade, learned to drive here, acquired driving license following the usual rules and regulations etc.

Gophur

Insurance is mandatory for all drivers and, as a result, all drivers have to be able to secure it.

If one is refused cover, five times, then one can go back to the Insurance company who are obliged to offer cover.

shedweller

I had this problem after i was away for 2 years. In the end i had to contact my insurer abroad and get them to send my irish insurer a copy of no claims bonus. All worked out but it was almost a lot worse; imagine losing all my ncb??!

glic71rods46t0

Its not discrimination as long as its not based on one of the 9 grounds set out in legislation.
The insurance companies want to avoid foreigners but can't base it on nationality so they apply a different criteria tahts applied to everyone regardless of nationality and it achieves their desired purpose - except that it catches a few Irish people as well.
Not condoning it but I can see where they are coming from. I strongly suspect that there has been a spike in Johnny foreigner claims - when you think about it, if insurance is easy to come by, why not fly in a few of your relatives from Romania, Ghana, Nigeria or whereever and stage an accident - nice earner!

él statutorio

I wonder is it limited to certain countries and different types of policies? A mate of mine is American and I got him insured on my (fully comp)car with no hassle, just rang up, paid the €20 extra and that was it. He was only in the country about 6 months at the time (not that they asked). Job done.

dr.fuzzenstein

p4u5myiqlcnz9d wrote: »

a spike in Johnny foreigner claims - when you think about it, if insurance is easy to come by, why not fly in a few of your relatives from Romania, Ghana, Nigeria or whereever and stage an accident - nice earner!

I just didn't want to say it, but yes, exactly.

CiniO

In 2007 I acquired my first Irish insurance policy on my first Irish registered car.
It was with Hibernian.
They never asked me how long I was living in Ireland.
They accepted my NCB from Poland no problem.

Generally speaking it was all problem-less for me.

Matt Simis

p4u5myiqlcnz9d wrote: »

Not condoning it but I can see where they are coming from. I strongly suspect that there has been a spike in Johnny foreigner claims - when you think about it, if insurance is easy to come by, why not fly in a few of your relatives from Romania, Ghana, Nigeria or whereever and stage an accident - nice earner!

But is it easy to come by here? I think insurance is expensive and difficult here, but maybe court settlements and payouts are easier than other regions. Insurance specifically I doubt.

ballooba

p4u5myiqlcnz9d wrote: »

Not condoning it but I can see where they are coming from. I strongly suspect that there has been a spike in Johnny foreigner claims - when you think about it, if insurance is easy to come by, why not fly in a few of your relatives from Romania, Ghana, Nigeria or whereever and stage an accident - nice earner!

Such a load of rubbish. An Irish solution to an Irish problem? How do other countries survive without this?

MadsL

The thing is he's also been quoted over a 1000 for 3rd party insurance with another company.

The returning Irish ban I thought was outrageous, I can give the company money for 10 years, go overseas through forced emigration and then they will refuse to insure you?? Where is the actuarial data for that risk?? Am I suddenly going to lose the ability to drive? Disgusting.

Regarding foreign nationals, I managed to get Quinn to change their policies and script 7 years ago when I challenged the notion that where you were born affected how you drive.

Thread here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1979116

Just wonder why no-one seems surprised or disgusted by this. The underwriter is UK based, I'm betting they have no such policy in the UK.

Anan1

MadsL wrote: »

What do we think people?

I think your friend should shop around. And I envy your innocence, still being surprised at the vagaries of motor insurance quotes.;)

MadsL

I think your friend should shop around.

Should he have to? I think the insurance company should explain themselves.

Gophur

MadsL wrote: »

Should he have to? I think the insurance company should explain themselves.

Why are you getting so worked up about it?

peteb2

MadsL wrote: »

Should he have to? I think the insurance company should explain themselves.

Why? Whats the problem? You've already said that he got a quote for €1,000 so whats the beef? He hasn't been shunned by the insurance world.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Should he have to? I think the insurance company should explain themselves.

A couple of years ago I asked my insurance company to quote me on a cabriolet. I was told they wouldn't insure me until I was 30. I don't consider it discrimination, I consider it risk profiling, and I would prefer that my premium was kept low by them doing this.

Think about it OP, if your insurance company start insurance high risk drivers, your insurance will go up. Is that what you want?

MadsL

Why are you getting so worked up about it?

peteb2 wrote: »

Why? Whats the problem? You've already said that he got a quote for €1,000 so whats the beef? He hasn't been shunned by the insurance world.

Think about it OP, if your insurance company start insurance high risk drivers, your insurance will go up. Is that what you want?

1000 notes for 3rd Party? At 33, for a 700cc car...?? On someone driving since 1993, how is he high-risk ffs?

Jesus, the Mé Féin attitudes still haven't gone have they? Don't bother trying for any fairness or equality as long as you and yours are alright...:(

OK, what about if you emigrate for a few years and can't get insurance when you come back.

Seriously how the fk do you suddenly become uninsurable after a lifetime of paying premiums and then spending 3 years working abroad.

padd b1975

Age 33.
Full licence since 1993???

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

[]

1000 notes for 3rd Party? At 33, for a 700cc car...?? On someone driving since 1993, how is he high-risk ffs?

He might not be high risk but the category that he falls into is high risk. Insurance companies are the ones who know about risk evaluation more than anyone here on boards. It's what they do. They are the ones studying the statistics day in day out.

And if you think that people are selfish because they don't want to pay extra for high risk categories then you're disillusioned. You talk about fairness but you are happy for low risk drivers to take the hit for high risk ones? Yep, that seems really fair.

ando

I paid 4609 in 2002 for third party fire n theft because I was 22 and high risk on a 1.4 focus.. Insurance companies screw u over if u come into the category of high risk but that's just the way it is and how they work. It's a lot better now then it was. Does your friend still have his NCB?

dr.fuzzenstein

MadsL wrote: »

1000 notes for 3rd Party? At 33, for a 700cc car...?? On someone driving since 1993, how is he high-risk ffs?

Jesus, the Mé Féin attitudes still haven't gone have they? Don't bother trying for any fairness or equality as long as you and yours are alright...:(

OK, what about if you emigrate for a few years and can't get insurance when you come back.

Seriously how the fk do you suddenly become uninsurable after a lifetime of paying premiums and then spending 3 years working abroad.

Sadly it's the way it works.
It's not that your friend is actually a high risk driver, but he drove "out fordeign" and that is now a convenient excuse to screw him.
As for "experts studying premiums all day", people seem to have this almost godlike reverence for anyone with the title "expert", as if though those people possess an almost God-like quality.
Everything they say is unquestionable and must not be doubted, The Experts Are Never Wrong!
They're just people like everyone else, they're no better, or different and aren't doing anything that everyone else couldn't be doing with 5 minutes training.
It's just an illusion to make us swallow the claptrap excuses they wheel out to hike up our premiums.
Insurance companies are interested in risk, but they are even more interested in excuses to bilk us for more money.
Remember: Every company these days is in one line of business only, make as much money as possible for as little return as possible.
The actual business they're in is irrelevant.
So they latch on to any excuse for more.
And, thankfully for them, a lot of people seem to take them at their word without doubt or question.

But seriously, 33 and driving since 1993?
I'm 40 and I started in 1990, did your friend start driving at 14 years of age?

keithclancy

Moved to NL in 2007, got a Dutch car in 2009.

Accepted my Quinn NCB Letter with no problem and added it to the National Register.

God help me if we ever go back :P

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As for "experts studying premiums all day", people seem to have this almost godlike reverence for anyone with the title "expert", as if though those people possess an almost God-like quality.
Everything they say is unquestionable and must not be doubted, The Experts Are Never Wrong!

Possibly aimed at me but probably not as I never used the word expert.

keithclancy

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Everything they say is unquestionable and must not be doubted, The Experts Are Never Wrong!

Experts me hole, the Agent sticks a load of details into a Computer, the computer comes back with the quote.

Theres a whole range of people behind those numbers, not just one 'expert'

People make out the one setting the Insurance prices is like this guy:


Whens its more like this guy working as a cog in a machine:

keithclancy

keithclancy wrote: »

Theres a whole range of people behind those numbers, not just one 'expert'

Exactly!

Our man in Havana

I am amazed at all the insurance company apologists here.

I left Ireland to get away from the shysters that the insurance companies are. I have gone from paying over 800 a year to now paying just 75 a year. I have never been asked once how long I have been driving, claims history or the contents of my stomach. Anyone can drive my car, no named driver nonsense.

Ireland needs to cop the feck on and get with the program.

peteb2

Are you actually in Havana? That would explain the cost! Cultural differences with insurance across countries and how business is conducted explains price differences in different countries. How the systems operates is completely different depending on where you are!!

Bit extreme though to emigrate just for cheaper insurance !!!

Our man in Havana

I am in Bulgaria.

I emigrated due to general unhappiness with Ireland. A country with no future and no prospects. I was fed up of the monkeys that were running the show. I have been proved right there.

dr.fuzzenstein

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I am in Bulgaria.

I emigrated due to general unhappiness with Ireland. A country with no future and no prospects. I was fed up of the monkeys that were running the show. I have been proved right there.

+1
The former government where a bunch of thieves, liars, conmen, chancers, shysters, knackers, idiots, misfits and of course Bertie, who was worse than that.
Hard to say what the current government is like, they are to busy kowtowing to Europe and doing their bidding.
The former handed Ireland to Europe on a plate (IMO traitors and should be executed), the latter is carving it up into nice pieces.
This country is ruined for AT LEAST 20 years and after that it might be back where it was in 1999.
And the country is in that state because of the people who inhabit it and constantly bleat "Don't question, don't rock the boat, don't stick your head up, keep quiet and maybe he won't see us".
It is the general attitude, praise be unto our glorious leaders!
And never, ever question the "experts"

EPM

Try and keep this on topic. People don't come to a motoring forum to read political rants.

MadsL

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I am in Bulgaria.

I emigrated due to general unhappiness with Ireland. A country with no future and no prospects. I was fed up of the monkeys that were running the show. I have been proved right there.

How do you feel about being denied insurance when you return after 2 years away?? 123.ie will refuse to insure you.

challengemaster

MadsL wrote: »

How do you feel about being denied insurance when you return after 2 years away?? 123.ie will refuse to insure you.

By the sounds of it he won't be coming back

seanmacc

I have to say that I've never encountered a major problem. I moved to the US in 06 and learned to drive over there. I moved back to Ireland in 08 bought a car and have been driving around on a US license ever since. I can't swap my licence so I've stuck with the US one (legally I'm still resident in the US so can do so). The cr*p thing is the cost of the premiums a couple of companies quoted me through the roof. What I'd do is put in for a quote online with a few companies giving them your phone number (Chill, Zurich, AA, FBD were good for this) and they rang back. When you've someone who's semi-cold calling you they're more likely to want to seal a sale

Marcusm

seanmacc wrote: »

I have to say that I've never encountered a major problem. I moved to the US in 06 and learned to drive over there. I moved back to Ireland in 08 bought a car and have been driving around on a US license ever since. I can't swap my licence so I've stuck with the US one (legally I'm still resident in the US so can do so). The cr*p thing is the cost of the premiums a couple of companies quoted me through the roof. What I'd do is put in for a quote online with a few companies giving them your phone number (Chill, Zurich, AA, FBD were good for this) and they rang back. When you've someone who's semi-cold calling you they're more likely to want to seal a sale

How much time do you spend in Ireland per year?

Raskolnikov

Just because the car has a small engine, it doesn't mean it should be cheap to insure. The engine of a 700cc could easily be turbo-charged, or the weight of the car could be so low that the car is quite nippy. Not only that, but also, considering that small engined cars are likely to be city cars, they might be more prone to be in accidents or get stolen? Finally, maybe because the car is smaller, maybe the risk of damage/injury is much higher?

loconnor1001

we moved back in 2009 after 5 years away, it was a bit of hassle but we got insured by getting our agent in America to send a letter and proof of no claims to the agent here. Even without that they were willing to insure us, we just wouldn't have gotten the full no claims bonus. Can your friend get his previous insurance company to give proof of previous insurance?

seanmacc

Marcusm wrote: »

How much time do you spend in Ireland per year?

Usually no less than 6-9 months (usually broken up). My current insurer never had a problem with the US license thing until this year, when explaining my case to them they were happy no renew without documented evidence (I did offer). I even had a snow damage claim last year and they didn't try weasel out of it.

CiniO

seanmacc wrote: »

I even had a snow damage claim last year and they didn't try weasel out of it.

Excuse me for asking, but what is a "snow damage claim" ?

seanmacc

CiniO wrote: »

Excuse me for asking, but what is a "snow damage claim" ?

When you banjax your car because Fingal Co. Co. won't bother gritting roads or removing the debris of cars that have crashed because of ungritted roads and you claim off insurance to repair the damage because of council negligence. Very popular the past 2 years them sorts of claims

CiniO

seanmacc wrote: »

When you banjax your car because Fingal Co. Co. won't bother gritting roads or removing the debris of cars that have crashed because of ungritted roads and you claim off insurance to repair the damage because of council negligence. Very popular the past 2 years them sorts of claims

Thanks for answering.
I call it a drivers negligence who can't drive on snow.

Marcusm

seanmacc wrote: »

Usually no less than 6-9 months (usually broken up). My current insurer never had a problem with the US license thing until this year, when explaining my case to them they were happy no renew without documented evidence (I did offer). I even had a snow damage claim last year and they didn't try weasel out of it.

You might want to look into sitting an Irish driving test. If you usually spend more than 185 days a year in Ireland, you can only spend 12 months driving on your foreign licence. It would not matter if you were only in Ireland 4 days each week and returned to the US each weekend. On the face of what you have said, you have been driving unlicenced for 3 years plus the insurance company would likely be able to recover any claims for you. In addition, there is a further offence of making false declarations to obtain insurance; ignorance may or may not be a defence. I expect it's a strict liability offence such that a lack of knowledge would not clear the offence.

Probably best to regularise the position as soon as you can.

bodonnell

Returned here in 2005 after being abroad for 17 years, got insured no problems, don't remember there being any issue that I had just returned. I did have a ncb letter though.

MadsL

bodonnell wrote: »

Returned here in 2005 after being abroad for 17 years, got insured no problems, don't remember there being any issue that I had just returned. I did have a ncb letter though.

Out of interest were you asked "Where were you born?" at that time, the question has now shifted to "How long have you been living in Ireland?"

Neither of which I can see has any relevance at all to driving once you hold a certificate of competence to drive in Ireland (an Irish Driving Licence)

Keith186

I'd suspect that there may be fraud indicators for persons from certain.countries and they wont admit this openly, theyll just try insure less of these people.

But the most probable reason could be that they heard he has a full licence since 93 and is only 33. Might wanna address that one before you try the next insurance company!

cros13

Keith186 wrote: »

I'd suspect that there may be fraud indicators for persons from certain.countries and they wont admit this openly, theyll just try insure less of these people.

But the most probable reason could be that they heard he has a full licence since 93 and is only 33. Might wanna address that one before you try the next insurance company!

rotfl. Missed that .

MadsL

Keith186 wrote: »

I'd suspect that there may be fraud indicators for persons from certain.countries and they wont admit this openly, theyll just try insure less of these people.

But the most probable reason could be that they heard he has a full licence since 93 and is only 33. Might wanna address that one before you try the next insurance company!

Or you could just accept that I'm and old fart and believe that people born in 1994 can't possibly be 18, 8 surely.

Believe I meant to type 1999 earlier, but sh1t you can drive at 15 where I am now!

MadsL

Keith186 wrote: »

I'd suspect that there may be fraud indicators for persons from certain.countries and they wont admit this openly, theyll just try insure less of these people.

But the most probable reason could be that they heard he has a full licence since 93 and is only 33. Might wanna address that one before you try the next insurance company!

Or you could just accept that I'm and old fart and believe that people born in 1994 can't possibly be 18, 8 surely.

Believe I meant to type 1999 earlier, but sh1t you can drive at 15 where I am now!

I'd suspect that there may be fraud indicators for persons from certain.countries and they wont admit this openly, theyll just try insure less of these people.

Do you think they should be allowed to ask? How relevant is the question about where you were born/how long in Ireland?

bodonnell

MadsL wrote: »

Out of interest were you asked "Where were you born?" at that time, the question has now shifted to "How long have you been living in Ireland?"

Neither of which I can see has any relevance at all to driving once you hold a certificate of competence to drive in Ireland (an Irish Driving Licence)

Possibly was asked place of birth, memory a bit vague but definitely would've remembered if I got grief from anyone.