Would you?

blatantrereg

There was an AMA style thread by a [former?] prostitute on boards a few years ago who was writing a book about her experiences. I wonder if it was the same person. Can't find the thread; appears to have been removed or moved to a private part of the site.

Dolbert

Eileen thanks so much for sharing, I had never thought about how the legislation might actually be hurting sex workers... we can all speculate but there's nothing like hearing from someone who's actually been through it.

catthinkin

no no i wouldnt i would rather lick floors for a living . maybe i am being naive but i like to think that there are some woman who geniuely see it as a job and enjoy it .But maybe thats because i cant bear to think of all that suffering . real men dont buy women

mariaalice

I think the point about Ruhama is very interesting, anyone with an ounce of common sense would realize that they have a very specific agenda and that prostitution is a very complex area.

I find that many charities in the broad area of social help are highly selective in how they present information, and are often very ideologically driven.

Eileen_Lang

bluewolf wrote: »

so you think legalising it with certain controls would be the way forward?
i've always figured that would be best but it's great to hear directly from someone who knows what they're talking about if it would really work and all

ruhama are a bunch of crazy people from what i've seen tbh, no time for them at all

OH ABSOLUTELY...and they always have been...not forgetting there is nothing harmless about the crazy if you happen to be involved in sex work, because all Ruhama will do is make you life a lot harder, and make your formal, state funded "exit options" conditional on submission to the ethos of what is, in truth, a bizarre and unhealthy ideological cult (imagine what your head would be like after a few weeks "exit counselling", I don't even have a way to articulate how unhealthy and potentially damaging that is).

I think legalisation is the way forward, but we have to legalise for an Irish context...I really do not see people hanging out of windows in Ely place in their underwear working here any time soon...and there are huge ethical issues with taxing sex work, ways have to be found to tax the buyer instead. That way, bluntly, nobody ever has to scr*w for the revenue commissioners.

My feeling is that rather than the state attempt to actively control the sex industry, the state should create a rigidly controlled framework (as above, or better), to contain the sex industry and respect the needs of society, within which the sex workers themselves, effectively, control the sex industry, as they are well able, and best placed, to do.

Eileen_Lang

blatantrereg wrote: »

There was an AMA style thread by a [former?] prostitute on boards a few years ago who was writing a book about her experiences. I wonder if it was the same person. Can't find the thread; appears to have been removed or moved to a private part of the site.

Probably not because I haven't got a clue what you mean by AMA

Also, the only book I ever have, or ever will write about prostitution was compiled from a load of online articles I had written in 2001 (I think that was even before boards was born?) and is available in pdf for (free) download on my site for the past week or so:

http://www.stop-the-lights.com/hooker.pdf

I have abridged it, not to deny you all a "host of salacious delights", but rather to spare you wading through a lot of barely relevant, self indulgent, autobiographical stuff (I think there is enough of that online from the abolitionist fantasist brigade!) I padded it with to make it book length.

Eileen_Lang

Dolorous wrote: »

Eileen thanks so much for sharing, I had never thought about how the legislation might actually be hurting sex workers... we can all speculate but there's nothing like hearing from someone who's actually been through it.

Thanks Dolorous, my point has always been to try and get people to stop and think and realise that because prostitution is so awful to do, most of the people doing it have to be pretty desperate for the money...so once they have to do it, it is just cruel to make it any harder.

I am in a really ironical position because, if you take a scan through the old book I wrote you will see that I always hung over an almost abolitionist point of view.

My (near fanatical) mission was always to try and show people that prostitutes are usually normal human beings who are the victims of abnormal circumstances not "saucy ladies defying society" or worse, human vermin in need of eradication (people believed both in 1993).

All I ever wanted to ask people to do was either give them a real way out to a real life, or leave them in peace to do the best they can for themselves.

I think, deep in my heart I have always felt that a prostitute is always, liuke me, the fault of the society that has consistently failed her, and society should be looking for way to make that up to her, not make it even worse.

But now I have to grow up, wind it in, and see that while that is truth, it may only be a part of the truth.

catthinkin wrote: »

no no i wouldnt i would rather lick floors for a living .

That is pretty close to the way I have felt about selling sex most of my life Catthinkin...there was a time...a couple of years...round about the time I was writing the pdf in my site when I kept a little cache of sleeping pills I had spent three months conning out of a local Doctor as insurance against ever having to sell sex again.

Things were hard, I had nowhere to turn to for any real support or help, and, despite my best efforts my attempt at a legitimate income was about to run out...straight into the "self employed" no dole trap...I used phone around, trying to find information, drawing blanks (how many times in my life I have done that)...those sleeping pills were my last hope and comfort because there was NO WAY I could force myself to sell sex again, or face trying

Does that sound like someone who needed laws to discourage them?

catthinkin wrote: »

maybe i am being naive but i like to think that there are some woman who geniuely see it as a job and enjoy it .

No Catthinkin, you are "NOT" naive, because I am having to grow up, quit with the projective identification and learn that myself too.

The past few days I have been chatting with a lovely, sweet, smart, sane lady who is older and wiser than I am (and has had a fascinating life, hoestly it has been a privilege to meet her) and I met her at all because she was a prostitute once too, and she definately did enjoy selling sex.

It's not my place to tell her she shouldn't have felt that way is it?

...and then I have to move on recognise that nobody died and made me god so that I get to decide that selling sex is only ok when you are absolutely desperate and hate doing it...though, of course, when that is the case, no-one who wants to qualify as human should be aspiring to make that harder for you...

catthinkin wrote: »

But maybe thats because i cant bear to think of all that suffering . real men dont buy women

...ah but prostitutes are not for sale, only for rent...for me that WAS a huge part of the point...I wasn't selling the essence of *me* just renting a bit of me out for preference.

Regardless, a lot of my clients were DEFINATELY "real men" no kidding...the simple, smart mouth version is to add "they had just been around for 80 years or so...but that would only be part of the story...there were plenty of "real men" who were not in the vintage category too...but their stories would be a bit more identifiable so best not told.

Of course there were also royal *ssholes who's right to life seems shakey, but they tend to scr*w you sooner or later whether you are a prostitute or not!

mariaalice wrote: »

I think the point about Ruhama is very interesting, anyone with an ounce of common sense would realize that they have a very specific agenda and that prostitution is a very complex area.

I find that many charities in the broad area of social help are highly selective in how they present information, and are often very ideologically driven.

Don't GET ME STARTED...I suppose I lost my innocence watching the rise of Ruhama...and just how far the reality of what they were doing was from any kind of real help and compassion, let alone from their stated aims.

...and when you notice one Emperor has no clothes it isn't too hard to spot the others are buck naked too.

Eileen_Lang

Concerning the Magdalene Laundries and Ruhama (I was not aware of this until pretty recently, and as soon as I became aware my reaction was pretty much "THAT explains a lot"):

It is 100% public domain truth (even on their own site http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=138 ) that their only two trustees are:

• The Sisters of Charity
• The Good Shepherd Sisters

They founded Ruhama in 1989
http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=4 .

Four years later, in 1993 The Sisters of Charity sold a convent building and the whole sordid story began to unfold.

Because it is all so new to me, and I am bound to mix things up) I prefer to let those more familiar with the facts tell the story (there is plenty more on google)

http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/001939.html
http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html
http://users.erols.com/bcccsbs/bass/new_25magd.html

This Sisters of Charity closed the last Magdalene Laundry in Dublin in 1996, the Good Shepherd sisters closed the last Magdalene Laundry in the country in Waterford slightly later the same year.

...SEVEN YEARS after founding Ruhama...

I have been told at least one of the Nuns involved in developing Ruhama had formerly worked in the Laundries, and based upon my own experience there (with the early days of Ruhama) I had no difficulty taking the excellent movie "The Magdalene Sisters" literally.

The current (secular) CEO of Ruhama assures me that "Justice for Magdalenes" have no issues with Ruhama, but nobody seems to have explained that to "Justice for Magdalenes" yet:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0625/1224299584327.html

The_Thing

lazygal wrote: »

I have heard Ruhama referred to as a "Catholic agency". Does anyone know if this is true? Does it have a religious ethos? I find a lot of advocacy is populated by quite self important people with the actual needs of the people for whom they advocate quite far down the list of priorities.

There are three nuns on their board of directors. This is from their own website:

Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution.

I'm baffled as to how an organisation such as Ruhama has the balls to say they know what's best for sex workers when their founders were involved in the Magdalene Laundries.

When Ruhama visited Sweden they wouldn't meet with someone like Pye Jacobsen because she would have told them things they don't want to hear or (more importantly) for anyone else here in Ireland to hear either.

I mentioned earlier that I had listened to an interview Pat Kenny conducted with Geraldine Rowley(Ruhama) and at the end of it he says that there would be a period of public consultation where everyone would have their say, when she replied to him her tone of voice had changed and I got the impression from it that she would rather there was no public consultation at all.

Eileen_Lang

The_Thing wrote: »

There are three nuns on their board of directors. This is from their own website:


I'm baffled as to how an organisation such as Ruhama has the balls to say they know what's best for sex workers when their founders were involved in the Magdalene Laundries.

When Ruhama visited Sweden they wouldn't meet with someone like Pye Jacobsen because she would have told them things they don't want to hear or (more importantly) for anyone else here in Ireland to hear either.

I mentioned earlier that I had listened to an interview Pat Kenny conducted with Geraldine Rowley(Ruhama) and at the end of it he says that there would be a period of public consultation where everyone would have their say, when she replied to him her tone of voice had changed and I got the impression from it that she would rather there was no public consultation at all.

When I posted a link to Pye on Ruhama's FB page, just to establish the absence of social services in Sweden, with the exact point in the video at which the evidence appears to avoid anyone thinking I was trying to "indoctrinate" them, I was actually told that she was not worth paying attention to because she is "biased". (...and Ruhama and friends are neutral???).

I have a personal assurance from the Department of Justice that there will be a period of public consultation any day now (not quite sure what has happened to that???). It is my intention to make submission...and I hope a lot of other people will too, not just interested parties, but people who hold opinions, people who understand law and people who can give insight into the real issues involved.

Because you can be very sure Ruhama and their European Feminist, Religious and Abolitionist friends will be submitting a veritable snowstorm without a shred of consideration for the people who's lives they seek to affect.

All mainstream politics aside, Alan Shatter is a qualified solicitor and capable of deep and sensitive insight into the reality, ambivalence, and complexity of social issues (read his novel) - I think it is WELL WORTH making a plea for reason and sanity there.

Also, I want to plug a whole new index on my site that might interest LOADS of people, because a lady from facebook has very kindly dug out a treasure trove of Irish Times articles from before, and after the '93 act...no IDEA how she came across them...but you might find them telling:
http://www.stop-the-lights.com/reactions.htm

blatantrereg

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Probably not because I haven't got a clue what you mean by AMA

AMA: "Ask me anything"

Eileen_Lang

blatantrereg wrote: »

AMA: "Ask me anything"

Trust me not to know that :rolleyes:

Not me anyway...the old book on my site is all I had to say about prostitution. If this makes any sense, I hate the idea of being a professional ex hooker even more than I hated being an active hooker.

I actually know a few very different people who have gone that road and had a great time (because that is the way you have to do it...loads of "fun and saucy frolics" in between anything more serious you have to say - NOT my style) but it's not for me...

mcmacness

I think I may be reading a book by this woman at the moment penned under a false name. The book is called "Between the Sheets", at the moment she is just starting out in the business and most of her encounters seem very "vanilla". Me personally wouldn't have sex with strangers for money, even in dire straits. Now maybe if I was a mother and was absolutely stuck I might consider something but that would be like a one in ten billion chance. I cant see most peoples foray into this business being as "safe" and "normal" as this womans is so far.

Eileen_Lang

mcmacness wrote: »

I think I may be reading a book by this woman at the moment penned under a false name. The book is called "Between the Sheets", at the moment she is just starting out in the business and most of her encounters seem very "vanilla". Me personally wouldn't have sex with strangers for money, even in dire straits. Now maybe if I was a mother and was absolutely stuck I might consider something but that would be like a one in ten billion chance. I cant see most peoples foray into this business being as "safe" and "normal" as this womans is so far.

McMacness, I haven't read the book, and I may never, but I get the gist. All I can tell you is that I have friends and ex colleagues who have written, or been part of books about prostitution in Dublin and, in every single case where I knew the facts they were unrecognisable by the time they got into print.

I would say this is the same kind of thing all over...

But, on the other hand, you would probably be surprised how safe and "vanilla" prostitution is as a general rule. Remember, when you are working, that is just what it is...your job...you do not even think about all the nice harmless little men who give you no trouble, think oral sex is a hardcore fetish (seriously) and are polite and grateful afterwards.

I am going to spell this out...the guys who cam to buy sex from me, were, almost without exception, far nicer, more genuine and more respectful than any guy who ever tried to chat me up in a nightclub for free.

The 1993 law has pushed sex for sale underground, made it more dangerous and given you less opportunity to make informed choices...I have no idea what those responsible were smoking to decide that was a *good* thing for anyone.

I would have thought common sense would tell anyone that you will never eradicate prostitution...it still happen in Iran where they have the death penalty! So why the need for more laws that just make it more and more unsafe, and create more and more stigma?

I have to say that I totally agree with you. I sold sex literally as a matter of survival (long story with few, if any, fun bits), and I honestly cannot imagine just thinking it would be a nice career option (though, of course, if the world described in books like "between the sheets" really existed I might change my tune! ) but I have to accept that, this time around as an activist I have come across lovely sane people who tell me they did enjoy their time selling sex...generally these are "glass half full" kinda people anyway (I am not) and what they liked was the freedom, the money, how surprisingly nice the guys were...but nobody ever says they liked it for "the sex bit"...

The Black Oil

Anyone remember Stephen Fry's trip to America where he visited a brothel in Nevada?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGi431LjHB8

Perhaps a little too glossy and one sided, so I was interested to hear a counter to it on Radio 4 a while back, link and then there's the other thread with the blog/personal experience.

Tbh, it's an issue I'm somewhat undecided on...lots of dark elements to it.

zef

Louis Theroux did similar, visited a porn place in the US somewhere ,
A girl he was covering on the story ( i think she was from the uk too) was having an interview for a part and the guy literally forced himself on her. Disturbing stuff.

edit- looking for link ,will ad it if i can find.

Dolbert

zef wrote: »

Louis Theroux did similar, visited a porn place in the US somewhere ,
A girl he was covering on the story ( i think she was from the uk too) was having an interview for a part and the guy literally forced himself on her. Disturbing stuff.

edit- looking for link ,will ad it if i can find.

Don't know if this is the one you're thinking of but there is a documentary called Hardcore - link here but very NSFW. Disturbing stuff.

Sally J

Hi ladies, I'm Sally

I've been directed to this site by a friend of mine as she tells me it's possible to discuss issues here specifically from a female perspective.

I thought I'd start a discussion on prostitution as women see it, and more importantly, as women experience it.

I've come across these two blogs by Irish women discussing their experience of prostitution in Ireland and would be interested in having a discussion on what women think of this area of life, and what is reported by these women.

http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/category/writers/freeirishwoman/

http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/category/writers/dublin-call-girl-writers/

As far as I'm concerned, fair play to them for speaking out about the abusive reality of prostituion in Ireland as they have experienced it. I'd be interested to know your thoughts? Thanks for reading

Sally J

Ickle Magoo

I've moved your post here as there are already two threads running on prostitution and I don't think a third on the same topic and doing the same blog-whoring is really necessary...

All the best.

neuro-praxis

Sally J wrote: »

http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/category/writers/freeirishwoman/

This blog is really interesting and well-written. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Sally J

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've moved your post here as there are already two threads running on prostitution and I don't think a third on the same topic and doing the same blog-whoring is really necessary...

All the best.

I didn't realise there were other threads on the go, thanks for moving it. I have to say I don't think 'blog-whoring' is a very respectful term to use towards me though. I personally know one of these women (Dublincallgirl) and I think her words should be heard. It has nothing to do with 'blog-whoring', and I have nothing personally to gain by linking her words.

Maple

Sally J wrote: »

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've moved your post here as there are already two threads running on prostitution and I don't think a third on the same topic and doing the same blog-whoring is really necessary...

All the best.

I didn't realise there were other threads on the go, thanks for moving it. I have to say I don't think 'blog-whoring' is a very respectful term to use towards me though. I personally know one of these women (Dublincallgirl) and I think her words should be heard. It has nothing to do with 'blog-whoring', and I have nothing personally to gain by linking her words.

With respect, you have three posts on this site. One of which is defending dublincallgirl on another thread about prostitution. Quoting the charter doesn't negate the fact that you did join up to effectively promote that blog.

Maple

Sally J

Maple wrote: »

With respect, you have three posts on this site. One of which is defending dublincallgirl on another thread about prostitution. Quoting the charter doesn't negate the fact that you did join up to effectively promote that blog.

Maple

Had it been pointed out that I joined up to discuss the blog I wouldn't have a problem with that, because that's what I did. 'blog-whoring' however is an offensive term. I'm sure civilised conversation is mentioned somewhere in the charter too?

Ickle Magoo

Sally J wrote: »

Had it been pointed out that I joined up to discuss the blog I wouldn't have a problem with that, because that's what I did. 'blog-whoring' however is an offensive term. I'm sure civilised conversation is mentioned somewhere in the charter too?

One of the other main-stays of this site is to take any issue you have with mod action to PM.

Blog-whoring is the very definition of signing up to promote a particular blog-site - while perhaps ironic given the topic, it's not offensive to point out a commonly used and recognised definition of the behaviour a poster is clearly displaying such as shilling, trolling, flaming, etc.

This is a community, with a discussion site for female posters - it's not an advertising spring-board, it's not a soap-box.

I'd advise that you take the time to read the forum charter here and Boards general posting rules and etiquette here before posting again.

cdaly_

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Probably not because I haven't got a clue what you mean by AMA

Also, the only book I ever have, or ever will write about prostitution was compiled from a load of online articles I had written in 2001 (I think that was even before boards was born?) and is available in pdf for (free) download on my site for the past week or so:

http://www.stop-the-lights.com/hooker.pdf

I have abridged it, not to deny you all a "host of salacious delights", but rather to spare you wading through a lot of barely relevant, self indulgent, autobiographical stuff (I think there is enough of that online from the abolitionist fantasist brigade!) I padded it with to make it book length.

stop-the-lights.com links are all broken. Seems to be a new joomla installation instead of your site now...

Eileen_Lang

cdaly_ wrote: »

stop-the-lights.com links are all broken. Seems to be a new joomla installation instead of your site now...

Sorry about that...I have been having server nightmares trying to upgrade the site for the past couple of days...niormal service should be resumed by the weekend (I have to migrate the theme stuff now)...

...until then the old site is at http://www.stop-the-lights.com/old/ (<NB this is actual site redirect whoring )

...and thanks for the heads up...I would have put a redirect link on the Joomla page if my head was on straight.