Dublin Bus - Thanks :-(

meanmachine3

Tombo2000 wrote: »

there's a pedestrian lights on the northstrand, just before the bridge going over the canal and i'm half thinking about bringing my own camera over at evening rush hour and photographing the buses breaking the pedestrian lights.

I know all drivers do it, but its particularly frustrating to me when bus drivers do it since they should be saftey concious, and because they are representatives of the state.....and I see it at least a few times a week at that particular junction.

Of course you are right about 'speeding', but to my mind there is a hell of a difference between a car going a 50kph and a double decker bus at that speed, there are speed limits and what is safe.

Once again, the new speed limits in the city centre are observed by nobody, and that includes bus drivers.

first point if you going to bring a camera bring a camcorder, i know the lights but i dont know the timing of them changing. there is something called the point of no return. theres no point in just signalling out bus drivers. as you say everyone does it. to say your going to photograph buses i think it's a bit extreme and bordering on victimization. besides bus drivers being reps of the state i would also class taxi drivers, post vans, basically nearly everyone that works for state/semi state bodies in this category.
now your point on speeding or to be correct driving to the conditions of the road. once we stick to the speed limits theres nothing that anyone can do. in fact there is a line between breaking the speed limits and progress i.e. going so slow that it's just as dangerous as speeding. what you also fail to realize is the breaking distance between cars and large capacity vehicles i.e. buses and trucks. theres nothing worse than someone cutting in front of me whether it's feet or metres and still expecting me to brake safely.
agreed with the C.C. speed limits but then again your just picking on bus drivers as i would see it. driving standards and habits are getting worse by the day and instead of enforcing thoroughly whats already there our beloved government want to bring in more changes. this has gotten way off the topic and is more suited to another thread.

Tombo2000 wrote: »

there was a strike there about two years ago.

the unions haven't had the balls to sanction any strikes in years, they're spineless and gutless. the only strike i can think of is the harristown one which was unofficial and that mainly affected that garage.

getting back to the O.P.'s problem. O.P. you ring clontarf garage A.S.A.P. and explain your plight.as in the next 24/36 hours. believe me when i say this. one of the managers there takes great pleasure in calling in drivers over complaints that are both true and untrue. if you were indeed at the bus stop before the bus arrived and did have you hand out it'll be all on camera. just make sure you have your facts right .

thebman

KD345 wrote: »

Dublin Bus has many faults, but it actually has one of the best fleets in Europe. The majority of their buses are younger than 10 years and low floor. As a regular user, I find them to be in good condition. It's been years since I was on a bus broke down.

The bus breaking down is the least of the issues. I've had to tell the drivers how to drive their route, had fumes coming into the bus, had an outrageous smell of p*ss at times on buses, rubbish on a bus, drugies on a bus, another bus user vomit down the staircase as they were getting off the bus. Been told to get off one bus to get on another while the bus was only minutes from its last stop for some reason which was never explained. The other bus took off down the motorway. I've had to wait for 2 hours for a bus after work in a period when I know 4 buses should have stopped at my stop.

Why would anyone subject themselves to the above. I've never seen any of the above on another bus operator. I also have been there at each of the above as the person I traveled with complained to the operator and nothing ever changed.

dazberry

giz_a_job wrote: »

Got to the bus stop in time, bus pulled up, stopped for 5 secs, doors did not open, then drove off, while I walked the length of the bus he went off, despite me being at the stop before him, even waving at him.

Experienced something similar only once before, ironically also with the 29A. I tweeted about it at the time and Dublin bus replied telling me to email customercomment@dublinbus.ie. OP I suggest you do the same.

D.

BrianD

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i.e. going so slow that it's just as dangerous as speeding. .

That is absolute nonsense and commonly used by people who are nabbed for speeding.

If you have a complaint about dangerous driving the only option is the Gardai. I know this from experience because in 2008 I witnessed terrible driving by a state owned rescue Tender who first tailgated me and then drove at speed in the Dublin Port Tunnel in the overtaking lane. I was bang on 80 clicks the whole way through and I couldn't even see him on the road ahead on exit. And this guy was driving a rescue tender!!

Contacted the relevant agency and a very helpful gent identified the vehicle and driver. the drivers response was that "traffic was going dangerously slow". Unbelievable response. We were in a tunnel with an 80km limit on it and he was supposed to be at least two chevrons behind me.

Anyway, a number calls went back forward and there was talk about getting camera footage. The chap in the state agency was very helpful, courteous and understood the nature of my complaint and followed it up. In the end, I never really got a formal acknowledgement of the outcome. Anyway, I would certainly be of the opinion that if it's an apparent breach of the law then put the complaint through the Gardai.

(note the rescue tender was state owned but was not a front line unit that would be attending emergencies on blues. It was actually, as it turned out, returning from an exercise on the day)

juan.kerr

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i agree you are entitled to an opinion but you also came across as someone with the attitude of " i pay your wages crap" because "as a taxpayer I subsidise it"

Rubbish.

bk

KD345 wrote: »

Dublin Bus has many faults, but it actually has one of the best fleets in Europe. The majority of their buses are younger than 10 years and low floor.

While they maybe one of the youngest fleets in Europe, they certainly aren't one of the best.

Not unless all the triple door, dual stairs buses are on other routes!!!

In fact I would call the DB fleet one of the most ineffective in Europe.

Tombo2000

The_Wrecker wrote: »

I havent been on the gate since 1999.

If it wasnt a strike, it was some sort of work to rule. I distinctly remember standing a bus stop about two years ago, and a bunch of buses with numbers driving past empty, and being told that there was an industrial action of that day.

It may have been part of some wider public service action, but there was defo some industrial action at Dublin Bus in either 2009 or 2010.

Wasnt a big deal, just pointing out that it took place.

Tombo2000

bk wrote: »

While they maybe one of the youngest fleets in Europe, they certainly aren't one of the best.

Not unless all the triple door, dual stairs buses are on other routes!!!

In fact I would call the DB fleet one of the most ineffective in Europe.

What problems specifically do you have with the fleet?

I (as a passenger) would agree that the buses are in good nick, well kept and a dang sight better than when I was a kid.

The only single problem I see with them is that only one pram/ wheelchair can get on. hence if you are at a bus stop with a pram, you could have 5 or 6 buses go by before one can let you on.

Tombo2000

meanmachine3 wrote: »

first point if you going to bring a camera bring a camcorder, i know the lights but i dont know the timing of them changing. there is something called the point of no return. theres no point in just signalling out bus drivers. as you say everyone does it. to say your going to photograph buses i think it's a bit extreme and bordering on victimization. besides bus drivers being reps of the state i would also class taxi drivers, post vans, basically nearly everyone that works for state/semi state bodies in this category..

Bordering on victimization?

People who break the law.......bringing this to the attention of the authorities is to victimize those people?

I wont make any sarchastic remarks, I'll just let that one hang there for a while.

Point of no return varies considerably depending on what speed you are going.

If bus is driving through a pedestrian light when the pedestrian light is green, then if you are going to use the point of no return argument I dont see how the driver couldnt have been speeding coming up to it.

Taxi drivers are not semi-state and I havent noticed An Post vans continuosly breaking pedestrian lights the same way that I've noticed with Dublin Bus drivers.

monument

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Chances are that telling this story here will have no impact. Have you considered telling Dublin Bus?

dudara wrote: »

Write a letter of complaint to Dublin Bus. Giving out on the Internet will achieve nothing.

Moved to Commuting & Transport

dudara

Lapin wrote: »

Giving out on the internet will probably achieve more than a letter of complaint to Dublin Bus ever will.

The OH, while pregnant if that matters, was at a bus stop trying to get to work and the driver would not stop. She was waiting at the stop way before the bus came along, she signalled to the bus driver, and the bus was not packed full or anything.

So, she complains by email to Dublin Bus. Giving all the route details, date and time.

Dublin Bus eventually reply saying sorry about that and we'll sent out some tickets to show how that we are sorry etc. Great Dublin Bus said sorry and more!

She gets another email from Dublin Bus. This time the email claims that what she said happened never happened and they quote different, I think, both date and time compared to what she said in her first email.

So, she emails back saying she already got an email from somebody else a Dublin Bus and that the time/date the second email state was not the time/date she gave!

No reply since from Dublin Bus. That was over a year ago now.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

While they maybe one of the youngest fleets in Europe, they certainly aren't one of the best.

Not unless all the triple door, dual stairs buses are on other routes!!!

In fact I would call the DB fleet one of the most ineffective in Europe.

Inneffective from your perspective bk.

However,there are many such viewpoints to be considered and not all would concur with yours.

Oddly enough,in the lead up to the specification of the first of DB's low-floor order which began in the late 1990's the company took a quite detailed look at the requirements of most of it's passengers.

These deliberations involved looking at other UK and European operators and their specific vehicle and system design.

One of the more surprising discoveries was the London experience where the then London Transport Users Council (now London Travelwatch) had "lack of accesible seating in the lower saloon" consistently in the top three of its reported problems with the TfL Bus System.

Further research also pointed to a distinct lack of enthusiasm both here and in the UK for "Strap Hanging" large-capacity standee vehicles for core routes.

In the light of this ,and also taking into account the (still) binding Labour Court recommendation on Centre Door use in Dublin,it was decided to max out on Lower Saloon seating availability,a decision I believe to be correct.

Studies on a variety of our own routes,and data from the then more recent UK studies revealed that some of the London Double Deck,Dual Door designs had as few as 14 seats available in the Lower Saloon,with many of the seats in unusual or less than accessible locations for people in the general run of things.

The DB policy has enabled it to get in up to 28 seats with at least half of this number at floor level,which,to some is actually a definition of "Accesibility" in real terms.

It's all to easy to view the Low-Floor principle as being solely to facilitate the "Disabled" or those with Buggies,however,whilst both categories are deserving of recognition,there are also the requirements of the vast bulk of passengers who occupy a broad spectrum of abilities to realistically consider.

I have,quite recently taken some rather uncomfortable Bus journeys in central London where the unregulated number of occupied large buggies (some being used only as shopping trollies) forced into the space at the bottom of the staircase caused serious and I believe potentially dangerous problems for passengers attempting to get downstairs or exit the bus.

In all cases the Driver exhibited a total disconnect from what was occuring behind him,with not so much as a nod or instruction to the heaving bickering throng behind him.

The London experience also pointed to the other effectivity aspect of the Hi-Capacity Standee Double Deck.....the Lower Saloon Standee's acted as a barrier to those passengers willing and able to go upstairs,which led,in turn,to the ago-old problem of half-full/empty buses whizzing past passengers at various stops.

These points are not by way of explanation or excuse,but merely to illustrate that Bus Design and the issues surrounding it can be somewhat more involved than immediately thought.

I'm afraid that,satisfying as it may seem,it's not always down to sheer bloody mindedness of the Operator or designer,but rather the ceaseless attempts to cater for the greatest variable of them all......Human Nature.

bk

Tombo2000 wrote: »

What problems specifically do you have with the fleet?

Dwell time, it takes much longer for people to board and exit a bus if there is only one door.

Increased dwell times means longer journey times and less efficiency.

There is nothing more frustrating then sitting on a cross city route like the 16, waiting for 5 to 10 minutes at Parnell Square, followed by O'Connell St, followed by Westmoreland St./College Green for the throngs of people to first disembark, followed by the throngs of people to slowly start to board and pay the driver after a nice long conversation on their destination.

This, along with the disaster of the stage fare system is the biggest issue facing Dublin Bus.

Anyone who has used a bus in Germany or Poland, where every bus has three doors and you validate your ticket at one of the numerous validation machines, knows how much faster and more efficient such bus services are.

Alek you make some good points, but I have to respectfully disagree with you.

As for the reports that indicate a lack of enthusiasm for standing on buses, I wonder how did the surveys phrase the question?

I wonder was it like this:
Would you rather stand or sit on a bus?

I think we all know the answer to this question.

But what if it was asked like this:
Would you rather there be more seating space on the bus, knowing that it will decrease the number of passengers the bus can carry by 10% and thus you are more likely to find full buses that you can't board?

Or how about this one:
Would you rather have more seats on a bus or have your journey time reduced by 20 minutes due to having three doors on the bus?

Well then I think the answers might be very different. You have to be careful about asking people what they want, they often haven't really thought it through and don't really know what they want.

For example Apple is famous for not doing doing customer surveys, believing that the customer doesn't actually know what they want and that Apple know better. 5 years ago another mobile phone company did a survey that found less then 1% of people were willing to spend $500 or more on a phone, so they didn't put much effort into it. Today Apple has over 25% of the phone market, where all their phones cost $500 or more.

Ryanair is another great example. I'd imagine if you surveyed passengers 10 years ago if they would be willing to pay for their baggage and food, they would have definitely said no. Yet today Ryanair is the largest airline in the world, by ignoring what customers were saying and instead giving them what the customer really wanted, cheap flights.

People might say they want seats, but what people really want the most is a fast and efficient bus service that gets them to their destination in the quickest time possible.

KD345

bk wrote: »

While they maybe one of the youngest fleets in Europe, they certainly aren't one of the best.

Not unless all the triple door, dual stairs buses are on other routes!!!

In fact I would call the DB fleet one of the most ineffective in Europe.

Ineffective in what way? They're certainly effective in moving thousands of passengers around the city every day. I use buses a lot and I find them clean (far cleaner than the Luas), in good condition and accessible. I think dwell times at stops could be reduced with centre doors, but overall I don't think our buses are all that bad!

Tombo2000

bk wrote: »

Dwell time, it takes much longer for people to board and exit a bus if there is only one door.

Increased dwell times means longer journey times and less efficiency.

There is nothing more frustrating then sitting on a cross city route like the 16, waiting for 5 to 10 minutes at Parnell Square, followed by O'Connell St, followed by Westmoreland St./College Green for the throngs of people to first disembark, followed by the throngs of people to slowly start to board and pay the driver after a nice long conversation on their destination.

.

I'd disagree.

THere is nothing more frustrating than waiting for ten minutes for a bus, and then when it does come along its full.

I take your point on dwell times; but the counter point is that a second door removes a lot of seat space down stairs. Bear in mind that they have to have at least one wheel chair space; so you would be getting rid of a good number of seats towards the end of the bus downstairs if you introduce a second door.

In other words, a second door means that the buses fill up quicker; and you will be waiting for the next bus more often.

I;d agree with you re the long conversations with bus drivers; that can be a real pain.

I was reading an interview about Ryanair the other day, where the spokesperson said "It would be easy for us to indulge passengers who are late for boarding, but if we do then we keep 180 other passengers waiting". Thats why it really annoys me when the driver has a long winded chat with some boarding customer about the directions from Clearys to Trinity College; there are 40 other people on the bus whose time is wasted in the process.

bk

Tombo2000, you are wrong about that.

A bus with multiple doors carries more passengers then a single door bus.

Yes a single door bus has more seats (Aleks argument), however you can fit more people standing in the same space if you remove the seats and multi door buses have more standing space and therefore more passenger capacity.

This is why the Luas has so few seats, they are focused on standing space and getting people on and off as quickly as possible.

markpb

Tombo2000 wrote: »

In other words, a second door means that the buses fill up quicker; and you will be waiting for the next bus more often.

What!!?

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Yes a single door bus has more seats (Aleks argument), however you can fit more people standing in the same space if you remove the seats and multi door buses have more standing space and therefore more passenger capacity.

This is why the Luas has so few seats, they are focused on standing space and getting people on and off as quickly as possible.

Well the "arguement"is now academic as the NTA now call the shots.

As of now,the NTA specification for Dublins Double Deck fleet calls for Dual-Door and Two Disabled spaces.

This spec is operator independent and will be required of all operators going forward it seems.

I'm confident the NTA will in due course make their specifications,and the deliberations which led to their adoption fully available to the general public.

One of the most interesting observations to be made of Public Transport users,is how rapidly and seamlessly individual needs and focuses can change.

The passenger who presents at the platform for a bit of an oul chat whilst rummaging for change will immediately enter a diametrically opposed state when he/she has taken a seat and awaits departure.

It would not be unusual for me to hear a big sigh or worse from such a passenger whilst the person behind them attempts to do the exact same....:rolleyes:

The very person extolling the virtues of strap-hanging and dual-door operation,can without warning,go off on one about having to stand due to lack of seating !!!

I have to confess a certain admiration for the Ryanair policy,oft stated by Mr O Leary,that the customer is Usually wrong,something which Ryanair's Profit and general business figures appear to continually prove.....a true conundrum ??

BK's point re the questions asked by researchers is fully valid,however given that we are not attempting to split-the-atom here,I suspect the line of such questioning is kept as simple as possible.

One major positive factor of centre-door operation from a Drivers perspective is that those passengers who wish to give-out can be asked to utilize the centre-exit....;)

However,to return to the serious world,I fully concur that Dwell Time at Stops is the major source of delay during normal operations,something which is particularly noteable on routes such as the 16/16A in the City Centre.

meanmachine3

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Bordering on victimization?

People who break the law.......bringing this to the attention of the authorities is to victimize those people?

I wont make any sarchastic remarks, I'll just let that one hang there for a while.

ok your nit picking then. in an earlier post you said everyone does it. then your saying your going to photograph bus drivers. really says it all doesn't it.

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Point of no return varies considerably depending on what speed you are going.

If bus is driving through a pedestrian light when the pedestrian light is green, then if you are going to use the point of no return argument I dont see how the driver couldnt have been speeding coming up to it.

ahhh come on try and have a bit of common sense here will ya. now go back to either the five lamps or down the road to the east wall road. a vehicle is at the lights where the A.I.B. is or used to be light turns amber now by the time the same vehicle has reached the lights on the other side of the junction they're red so technically that driver has broken a red light. what you fail to see or realize is most drivers in this country have a tendency to race traffic lights especially when they turn amber. it's a fact.

Tombo2000 wrote: »

I;d agree with you re the long conversations with bus drivers; that can be a real pain.

i really love quotes like these ,things aren't always what they seem. as i've said in past threads theres a gentleman's agreement whereby we give each other 10 mins in case the bus we're picking up from arrives early. or we could be just bored but either way. the reason alot of conversations go on is that the driver picking up is technically still on their break whether it's 5 mins or 15 mins they're still on their own time. to give an example. i have in the past been involved in confrontations with passengers such as your self. whereby someone would come up ranting and raving about drivers handing over and them being delayed so much so i've turned around to that very passenger and told them i was doing them a favour by coming back 15 mins early off my break, but instead of letting it go they still rant. my answer was very clear and simple to the ranting passenger. good luck i'm still on my break see you in 15 mins.
i await the back lash on this one :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Tombo2000 wrote: »

I was reading an interview about Ryanair the other day, where the spokesperson said "It would be easy for us to indulge passengers who are late for boarding, but if we do then we keep 180 other passengers waiting". Thats why it really annoys me when the driver has a long winded chat with some boarding customer about the directions from Clearys to Trinity College; there are 40 other people on the bus whose time is wasted in the process.

these fly on the wall documentaries are great especially airline. it's funny quoting something like that in that these airlines dont take any crap when the gate closes it stays closed. tough on you for being late.
F.F.S. we close the doors to try and get away from our stop you have raving loonies running up the side of the bus banging, screaming abuse, demanding the doors be reopened while seriously putting their lives in danger. the reason why we dont open the doors once they close is for health and safety reasons, to try and keep some sort of service going and to stop the people already on the bus from moaning and coming on here bitching saying the bus was taking ages etc.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well the "arguement"is now academic as the NTA now call the shots.

As of now,the NTA specification for Dublins Double Deck fleet calls for Dual-Door and Two Disabled spaces.

That is great news and hopefully they will specify three doors for the longer tri-axels.

Of course this means they have to also deal with and fix the issue of the Labour Court ruling, so that all the doors are actually used.

They will also need to deal with the issue of the leap card and flat fare or also tagging off (a possibility with double and triple door operation).

A half way solution would be entrance only at the front door, tag-on at the reader, no driver interaction. Exit only at the rare doors and optionally tag-off for a lesser fare.

The ultimate solution (in terms of dwell time) in my opinion is enter and exit at any doors, flat fare, tag on at any of a few validators on board the bus.

Finally they have to deal with the probability of increased fare dodging *.

I'm not saying it is going to be an easy transition, but neither is it rocket science. Most out major european cities have figured out this problem and successfully operate dual and tri doors.

* I think this problem can be dealt with in the Central European manner. Contract robocop like ex-russia military paratrooper types you see on the dart to be ticket checkers, with a high fine for fare dodger and give the ticket checker a slice of every fine (so basic wage + commission) as they do in many European countries. Doing it this way so allow fare dodging to be kept in check and the high fine value should pay for the extra ticket checkers and the missed fare dodgers, just as it is done on Luas, which manages to operate at a profit, despite the free for all.

This also has the advantages of putting more staff on buses and pay help reduce anti-social behaviour.

Alek, as for the passenger who will have a long chat with you and then complain about the next person doing the same or complain about having to stand, we can't build a bus service around the opinions of such people.

As you yourself say, the silent majority just board the bus, quietly pay the exact fare that they already know and have, sit down, read their newspaper, get up and leave. It is these people who want a quick and efficient bus service.

They might not complain when it takes ages to disembark and board people on the 16 in O'Connell St, but you can be sure they are wondering why it can't be as quick and efficient as last week when they were in London or Poland.

It is these people we need to be building a better bus service for, not the moaners.

We need to reduce interaction with the driver to the minimum possible, so that the driver can focus on driving the bus safely. We need to focus on getting the majority of people on and off the bus as quickly as possible.

As for the problem of the lack of seating downstairs for less able passengers, perhaps a campaign promoting that seats downstairs are for less able bodied passengers and that abled bodied passengers should go upstairs or stand.

Mark all seats downstairs as elderly/pregnant/disabled priority seats with large signs and have announcements pointing this out and reminding abled bodied passengers to move upstairs. I'm sure you would soon embarrass people into changing their ways and using upstairs more.

Personally I always use upstairs and I see many, if not most younger people do the same, so I think most people already have this idea, it just needs to be driven home.

Really a lot of this is psychology and gently manipulating people to use the service more efficiently for the benefit of all.

miller50841

Tombo2000 wrote: »

Think you are being pedantic here on a number of fronts.

Firstly, it seems fairly obvious to me that the OP was at the bus stop. However the bus did not stop exactly where OP was standing/sitting.

Rather it pulled up ten feet away, as buses often do. You will note that a bus stop is about five feet long, but that the space on the road allotted to a bus stop is about twenty foot long.....(cant believe i am writing this stuff out on a saturday night)......

My guess OP is that the driver just didnt spot you.

One point worth making, its not always enough to 'be' at a stop, you have to hail the driver too.....I've been at stops where a bus comes along and i just assume they will stop, but they pass me by.....I catch up at the next stop and say WTF?, and driver says 'you were just standing there, you never asked me to stop'.

I'd agree with follow-on driver, I think there are plenty of good drivers on Dublin bus, but there are a few a-holes out there too. To be honest, that doesnt surprise me, its a job for life with no incentives, and its not exactly winning the lotto ticket in the employment stakes.....

My bigger gripe with Dublin bus drivers is that they drive too fast, and freqently break red lights at pedestrian crossings.

If you are sitting at the back you may see a red light but the front could have gone through on a green/orange light also all drivers have been trained highly to not just plant on the brakes as if you were to do so it would be possible to injure a lot of passengers whether standing or sitting. Its a lot more different then sitting in a car with seats low down We are not all bad and its very difficult to get around with the attitudes of a lot of other road users

miller50841

bk wrote: »

That is great news and hopefully they will specify three doors for the longer tri-axels.

Of course this means they have to also deal with and fix the issue of the Labour Court ruling, so that all the doors are actually used.

They will also need to deal with the issue of the leap card and flat fare or also tagging off (a possibility with double and triple door operation).

A half way solution would be entrance only at the front door, tag-on at the reader, no driver interaction. Exit only at the rare doors and optionally tag-off for a lesser fare.

The ultimate solution (in terms of dwell time) in my opinion is enter and exit at any doors, flat fare, tag on at any of a few validators on board the bus.

Finally they have to deal with the probability of increased fare dodging *.

I'm not saying it is going to be an easy transition, but neither is it rocket science. Most out major european cities have figured out this problem and successfully operate dual and tri doors.

* I think this problem can be dealt with in the Central European manner. Contract robocop like ex-russia military paratrooper types you see on the dart to be ticket checkers, with a high fine for fare dodger and give the ticket checker a slice of every fine (so basic wage + commission) as they do in many European countries. Doing it this way so allow fare dodging to be kept in check and the high fine value should pay for the extra ticket checkers and the missed fare dodgers, just as it is done on Luas, which manages to operate at a profit, despite the free for all.

This also has the advantages of putting more staff on buses and pay help reduce anti-social behaviour.

Alek, as for the passenger who will have a long chat with you and then complain about the next person doing the same or complain about having to stand, we can't build a bus service around the opinions of such people.

As you yourself say, the silent majority just board the bus, quietly pay the exact fare that they already know and have, sit down, read their newspaper, get up and leave. It is these people who want a quick and efficient bus service.

They might not complain when it takes ages to disembark and board people on the 16 in O'Connell St, but you can be sure they are wondering why it can't be as quick and efficient as last week when they were in London or Poland.

It is these people we need to be building a better bus service for, not the moaners.

We need to reduce interaction with the driver to the minimum possible, so that the driver can focus on driving the bus safely. We need to focus on getting the majority of people on and off the bus as quickly as possible.

As for the problem of the lack of seating downstairs for less able passengers, perhaps a campaign promoting that seats downstairs are for less able bodied passengers and that abled bodied passengers should go upstairs or stand.

Mark all seats downstairs as elderly/pregnant/disabled priority seats with large signs and have announcements pointing this out and reminding abled bodied passengers to move upstairs. I'm sure you would soon embarrass people into changing their ways and using upstairs more.

Personally I always use upstairs and I see many, if not most younger people do the same, so I think most people already have this idea, it just needs to be driven home.

Really a lot of this is psychology and gently manipulating people to use the service more efficiently for the benefit of all.

If they bring in these changes they would need to have full time ticket checkers like the Luas as many people abuse the fare system as it is also the mirrors that are installed on all the busses would need to be proper ones that you can actually see whats beside and behind better as the ones on them busses dont even clear when wet and fog over in cold weather

spareman

Tombo2000 wrote: »

lol fair point.....most of the drivers that tear about my area in their boy racers are 'under 45' (and 'under 25' for that matter). i will take a 45+ yrs driver every time,.

there was a strike there about two years ago.

I'm 100% certain that Dublin bus have NO drivers under 25, Since the minimum age to start driving with Dublin Bus is 23 and they have not recruited drivers for at least 2 years now.

Also Ive been working in Dublin bus for the last 6 years and have NOT been on strike in this time.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Of course this means they have to also deal with and fix the issue of the Labour Court ruling, so that all the doors are actually used.

There's actually no need to "deal-with" the LC's ruling at all.

The long standing and quite commonsense adjudication long ago placed the ball firmly in the courts of the Local Authorities,the Gardai and now the NTA to get their finger out on the issue of safely usable infrastructure.

Dublin Bus is responsible for its vehicles,staff and passengers,but as for its operating environment...sadly,not responsible.

A half way solution would be entrance only at the front door, tag-on at the reader, no driver interaction. Exit only at the rare doors and optionally tag-off for a lesser fare.

The ultimate solution (in terms of dwell time) in my opinion is enter and exit at any doors, flat fare, tag on at any of a few validators on board the bus.

The first suggestion is probably the best for Dublin's bus system,as it stands.
It would appear the notion of a Flate-Fare for bus users is simply too awful to contemplate.

Finally they have to deal with the probability of increased fare dodging *.

I'm not saying it is going to be an easy transition, but neither is it rocket science. Most out major european cities have figured out this problem and successfully operate dual and tri doors.

* I think this problem can be dealt with in the Central European manner. Contract robocop like ex-russia military paratrooper types you see on the dart to be ticket checkers, with a high fine for fare dodger and give the ticket checker a slice of every fine (so basic wage + commission) as they do in many European countries. Doing it this way so allow fare dodging to be kept in check and the high fine value should pay for the extra ticket checkers and the missed fare dodgers, just as it is done on Luas, which manages to operate at a profit, despite the free for all.

This also has the advantages of putting more staff on buses and pay help reduce anti-social behaviour.

Now there's meat n two veg in this topic sure nuff.

Take,for example that well known Austrian hotbed of sedition and civil disobedience,Vienna !

Back in Autunm 2011 the publicly owned 500+ vehicle Wiener-Linen announced it's decision to get tough on Fare-Evasion practitioners.

The company increased it's Standard Fare from €70 to €100 a figure which increases (a lá West-Link Toll) to €138 if not paid within 72 Hours (:eek:).

The company issued in excess of 180,000 Such Fares in 2010 which compares to 300,000 SF's issued on the far larger BVG Berlin Bus network.

The Vienna operator has doubled the number of scheduled revenue-checks and allocated extra staff to the task.

However,I suspect our native prediliction for fudge and ambiguity,would render such a response to our Revenue-Protection issues simply impossible to contemplate...;)

Alek, as for the passenger who will have a long chat with you and then complain about the next person doing the same or complain about having to stand, we can't build a bus service around the opinions of such people.

I concur,but in our juristiction bk,this is exactly the demographic we tend to strive to placate,a quick trawl through the Bus Eireann route 109 thread will illustrate this concept quite effectively.

As you yourself say, the silent majority just board the bus, quietly pay the exact fare that they already know and have, sit down, read their newspaper, get up and leave. It is these people who want a quick and efficient bus service.

They might not complain when it takes ages to disembark and board people on the 16 in O'Connell St, but you can be sure they are wondering why it can't be as quick and efficient as last week when they were in London or Poland.

It is these people we need to be building a better bus service for, not the moaners.

Totally agree on this simple and desirable principle.

We need to reduce interaction with the driver to the minimum possible, so that the driver can focus on driving the bus safely. We need to focus on getting the majority of people on and off the bus as quickly as possible.

As for the problem of the lack of seating downstairs for less able passengers, perhaps a campaign promoting that seats downstairs are for less able bodied passengers and that abled bodied passengers should go upstairs or stand.

Mark all seats downstairs as elderly/pregnant/disabled priority seats with large signs and have announcements pointing this out and reminding abled bodied passengers to move upstairs. I'm sure you would soon embarrass people into changing their ways and using upstairs more.

Personally I always use upstairs and I see many, if not most younger people do the same, so I think most people already have this idea, it just needs to be driven home.

Really a lot of this is psychology and gently manipulating people to use the service more efficiently for the benefit of all.

Good post and worth progressing !

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Tombo2000, you are wrong about that.

A bus with multiple doors carries more passengers then a single door bus.

Yes a single door bus has more seats (Aleks argument), however you can fit more people standing in the same space if you remove the seats and multi door buses have more standing space and therefore more passenger capacity.

This is why the Luas has so few seats, they are focused on standing space and getting people on and off as quickly as possible.

What about the elderly passengers who are sitting in the seats specially for them near the back of the bus? how are they supposed to get to their seats or from their seats to the exit through a hundred or so people standing in the lower salon when the bus stops?

What about the Irish habit of congregating on the lower salon like barrow boys at the door to the bookies? how are passengers supposed to get to empty seats upstairs with so many short distance passengers clogging up the lower salon?

Stripey Cat

spareman wrote: »

the minimum age to start driving with Dublin Bus is 23

Is that true? How can they age discriminate like that?

miller50841

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Is that true? How can they age discriminate like that?

Its all to do with driving experience and Its over 21 to start driving I started at 22. When conductors were around some started at 16 but not driving and maybe younger. Also when I started few years ago they were taking on people close to 60 and over so there is defo no age discrimination there. The way things are now it looks like no recruitement just get everybody to retire and finish the whole service.

Lapin

Giblet wrote: »

25 mins? Jaysus, I'd love to see you miss a 65, two hours you would have to wait.

A two hour wait is a long time indeed.

But that shouldn't diminish the very valid point the OP raised.

Sloppy service on one route shouldn't be compared to sloppy service on another route.

markpb

foggy_lad wrote: »

What about the elderly passengers who are sitting in the seats specially for them near the back of the bus? how are they supposed to get to their seats or from their seats to the exit through a hundred or so people standing in the lower salon when the bus stops?

How do they manage on the Luas? Or in buses in other cities?

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote:

There's actually no need to "deal-with" the LC's ruling at all.

The long standing and quite commonsense adjudication long ago placed the ball firmly in the courts of the Local Authorities,the Gardai and now the NTA to get their finger out on the issue of safely usable infrastructure.

Dublin Bus is responsible for its vehicles,staff and passengers,but as for its operating environment...sadly,not responsible.

So what happens if these buses appear tomorrow, are DB mandated to tell all the drivers that they can't use the doors in certain locations until the LAs get stops up to the required standards and they're signed off by the LA, Gardai and NTA?

Is there any route where you could currently operate a dual door bus fully at all stops as far as you are aware?

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So what happens if these buses appear tomorrow, are DB mandated to tell all the drivers that they can't use the doors in certain locations until the LAs get stops up to the required standards and they're signed off by the LA, Gardai and NTA?

Is there any route where you could currently operate a dual door bus fully at all stops as far as you are aware?

In a word,NO.

However that doe's not mean the new policy decision is a bad one.
Personally,and in the case of most DB drivers,the use of the centre door is a non-issue thrown up time after time by lazy hacks and hackettes,many of whom cannot differentiate between Dublin and Éireann....;)

However what this policy does entail is a very specific re-focus onto the Gardai,the Local Authorities and even the NTA themselves,so it will be interesting to note if any of those bodies would be bothered to address the 8 taxi's lined up across the pedestrian crossing at the bottom of Grafton St on Saturday evening,with their drivers slobbering at the mouth in their attempts to get a bit of oul foreign Sports business.

Short of hiring in a Caterpillar D8 and setting it on auto I'm unsure how these cowboys can be persuaded to observe the nicities of their own profession ?