o2's new 48 Discrimination

drunkmonkey

o2 have started a new mvno but it's only for people aged between 18 and 22. Can a network operator openly discriminate against someone because of their age and not allow them service.

From the website "new phone network only for those aged 18 to 22" To me that's age discrimination. Is it legal?

Website here : https://www.48months.ie/ I'd also question are they allowed to offer services yet as they doesn't seem to have a license listed on the comreg site, not those their website have terms & conditions but they are requesting data from people.

Sam V Smith

Student Discount... age restricted products... Various travel cards... Banking, young persons accounts... Insurance costs... It might not be fair, but I can't imagine there's any legal grounds for a discrimination case. Age specific pricing / marketing / deals have been around for quite a while.

drunkmonkey

It's a Telecoms operator. I'd presume it would have to be open access like and utility. ESB can not say well were not taking people under 30 as their less likely to pay their bill. Nothing you listed above is a utility but I do get your point.

ShooterSF

What about 25+ car insurance?
As much as I agree ethically, I think the law is on their side. Though it's why I refuse to get a quote from 25+ now that I am over 25 as I dislike discrimination. I will also prefer a pub that is not "over 21" etc.

NoQuarter

The way the law looks at this sort of this is that its not "discriminating" but instead"benefiting" one class.

marketty

Very unusual to see any company discriminating in a way that benefits young people, almost always the other way round.

NuMarvel

It's being advertised as exclusively for 18 - 22, but it's a pay as you go service, so is someone actually asked for their age/date of birth? And if so, are they actually denied the service if they don't fall within the age bracket?

I tried to look at their terms and conditions earlier but the page was blank, so I'm not sure.

JTMan

The question needs to firstly be are they actually age discriminating?

I don't think they are.
1) They don't ask for date of birth anywhere.
2) They mealy aim at the 18-22 age group.
3) They offer vague statements about age targeting. They dont explicitly say they are restricting age groups in black and white.
4) There is nothing about age in the T&C's.

Victor

Sam V Smith wrote: »

Student Discount...

Not a discriminatory ground under the Equal Status Act. I went to TCD age 36.

Various travel cards...

Are there many? I doubt their legality.

Banking, young persons accounts...

Tend to be aimed at the under 18s, which is legal.

It might not be fair, but I can't imagine there's any legal grounds for a discrimination case.

Equal Status Act seems to say otherwise.

Age specific pricing / marketing / deals have been around for quite a while.

This doesn't necessarily make them legal.

ShooterSF wrote: »

What about 25+ car insurance?

Insurance and similar products are an exception to the Equal Status Act.

I will also prefer a pub that is not "over 21" etc.

Again an exception to the Equal Status Act, provided the policy is clearly stated and implemented in a non-discriminatory manner.

NoQuarter wrote: »

The way the law looks at this sort of this is that its not "discriminating" but instead"benefiting" one class.

Eh, no. Benefiting only one class is discriminating against the other class.

Fungus wrote: »

The question needs to firstly be are they actually age discriminating?
...
3) They offer vague statements about age targeting. They dont explicitly say they are restricting age groups in black and white.

"we are 48, the new phone network only for those aged 18 to 22." - what ever about T&Cs, this would seem to suggest that others aren't welcome, although is it on a par with Yorkie's "Not for girls"?

However, in the T&Cs is says: https://www.48months.ie/boiler-plate/terms

3.2 We reserve the right to limit the availability of the 48 Services for people in certain age categories (details of the age categories which qualify to use the 48 Services are published on www.48months.ie).

Further down is the interesting

4.8 We do not offer Age Restricted Services as part of the 48 Services.

“Age Restricted Services” means services of an adult nature which are generally specified for use by people aged 18 or over.

JTMan

Who regulates the content of the equal status act? Is there a quango that looks after it?

drkpower

Read sections 5, 14 and more of the Equal Status Act - many reasons why these kinds of promotions to the 'yoof' are likely to be entirely legal.

Victor

drkpower wrote: »

Read section ...14

Eh, no. That is designed to deal with groups who have suffered systematic discrimination and hte putting in place of schemes to rectify past discrimination, e.g. creating a training and employment scheme for say Travellers.

JTMan

Whilst, I still think it is clear that anyone of any age can sign up, the marketing statements are clearly discrimination by Telefonica.

I have contacted The Equality Authority as per the below.

Hi,

I am hoping you can help with the below.

Specifically, I wish to raise issues with regard to deliberate and unnecessary age discrimination by Telefonica Ireland. Telefonica Ireland trade as "O2" and "48". 48 is a mobile operator who's website is here: http://www.48months.ie/

On the 48 website homepage they state "The new mobile phone network only for those aged 18 to 22".

In their terms and conditions, they state "3.2 We reserve the right to limit the availability of the 48 Services for people in certain age categories (details of the age categories which qualify to use the 48 Services are published on www.48months.ie)". https://www.48months.ie/boiler-plate/terms

I believe that these marketing and T&C statements are a clear breach of the Equality Status Act.

Is this something you could address directly with Telefonica?

Thanks in advance,

golden virginia

I find it hard to believe that that sleazy link is getting considered under equal status legislation:eek:

Victor

Actually, reading section 16, it appears to be permissible once the discount is "reasonable", however that may be defined.

lovetorun

i think its a genius idea!! Well done o2 for lowering prices, everyone who whinges about it is just jealous that they are not students anymore....

student loan discounts have been around forever...you dont hear people whinging that the banks are agist....its just advertisement!!

Great , great , great idea!! All the people in that age group are meteor die hards and it is going to take an amazing idea like o2's to rob them...

Well done o2!!:)

Senna

If you ask 48months (o2) about it they will say anyone can get the deal, its just targeted at young people. There is a thread over on Bargain Alerts about it, i got it for my wife and she's older than 22.

Victor

lovetorun wrote: »

i think its a genius idea!! Well done o2 for lowering prices, everyone who whinges about it is just jealous that they are not students anymore....

You do realise that by offering one group a discount that overall, everyone gets charged more?

Procrastastudy

This a "genius" piece of marketing. We're talking about it - people I know are talking about it. Other operators are talking about it.

Any statements they have made are simply invitations to treat - I've got mine ordered I'll let you know if they ever ask for a date of birth. I'm much older than 22.

oooh to be under 22 again /sigh :P

Hmmm just found this

3. The information we collectWe collect such information as:i.Email address;
ii.Email addresses that you choose provide to us;
iii.Your name;
iv.Your name;
v.Billing address;
vi.Delivery address;
vii.Telephone number;
viii.Your use of the Services including but not limited to phone numbers and/or email addresses of calls, texts, MMS, emails and other communications made and received by you and the date, duration, time and cost of such communications, your searching, browsing history (including web sites you visit) and location data, address location for billing, delivery, installation or as provided by individual, phone location;
ix.How your conduct and manage your account(s) with us; and
x.Debit or credit card details, banking details and other payment information.

Why they need your name twice I don't know!

oooh and

3. Providing you with the 48 Services3.1 We will immediately connect you to the 48 Services as soon as your application is completed and authorised.3.2 We reserve the right to limit the availability of the 48 Services for people in certain age categories (details of the age categories which qualify to use the 48 Services are published on www.48months.ie).

MagicSean

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

This a "genius" piece of marketing. We're talking about it - people I know are talking about it. Other operators are talking about it.

Any statements they have made are simply invitations to treat - I've got mine ordered I'll let you know if they ever ask for a date of birth. I'm much older than 22.

oooh to be under 22 again /sigh :P

Hmmm just found this

3. The information we collectWe collect such information as:i.Email address;
ii.Email addresses that you choose provide to us;
iii.Your name;
iv.Your name;
v.Billing address;
vi.Delivery address;
vii.Telephone number;
viii.Your use of the Services including but not limited to phone numbers and/or email addresses of calls, texts, MMS, emails and other communications made and received by you and the date, duration, time and cost of such communications, your searching, browsing history (including web sites you visit) and location data, address location for billing, delivery, installation or as provided by individual, phone location;
ix.How your conduct and manage your account(s) with us; and
x.Debit or credit card details, banking details and other payment information.

Why they need your name twice I don't know!

oooh and

3. Providing you with the 48 Services3.1 We will immediately connect you to the 48 Services as soon as your application is completed and authorised.3.2 We reserve the right to limit the availability of the 48 Services for people in certain age categories (details of the age categories which qualify to use the 48 Services are published on www.48months.ie).

Let us know if you get rejected. I foresee an equality complaint.

JTMan

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

This a "genius" piece of marketing. We're talking about it - people I know are talking about it. Other operators are talking about it.

Any statements they have made are simply invitations to treat - I've got mine ordered I'll let you know if they ever ask for a date of birth. I'm much older than 22.

oooh to be under 22 again /sigh :P

Hmmm just found this

3. The information we collectWe collect such information as:i.Email address;
ii.Email addresses that you choose provide to us;
iii.Your name;
iv.Your name;
v.Billing address;
vi.Delivery address;
vii.Telephone number;
viii.Your use of the Services including but not limited to phone numbers and/or email addresses of calls, texts, MMS, emails and other communications made and received by you and the date, duration, time and cost of such communications, your searching, browsing history (including web sites you visit) and location data, address location for billing, delivery, installation or as provided by individual, phone location;
ix.How your conduct and manage your account(s) with us; and
x.Debit or credit card details, banking details and other payment information.

Why they need your name twice I don't know!

oooh and

3. Providing you with the 48 Services3.1 We will immediately connect you to the 48 Services as soon as your application is completed and authorised.3.2 We reserve the right to limit the availability of the 48 Services for people in certain age categories (details of the age categories which qualify to use the 48 Services are published on www.48months.ie).

If you read the full thread on the bargain alerts forum you will see 48 are spot checking the DOB of users by requesting a copy of their passport. Clearly, age discrimination.

Lynchy747

Just to let everyone know that 48 does carry out age spot checks, in the form of a letter asking for a photocopy of your passport clearly showing your date of birth.

Apologies fungus didn't see you already had this written

berrypendel

Fungus wrote: »

Whilst, I still think it is clear that anyone of any age can sign up, the marketing statements are clearly discrimination by Telefonica.

I have contacted The Equality Authority as per the below.

what did they say?

Procrastastudy

Fungus wrote: »

If you read the full thread on the bargain alerts forum you will see 48 are spot checking the DOB of users by requesting a copy of their passport. Clearly, age discrimination.

Can't wait for that argument lol!

I got this email today.

to me

Order confirmation
Hi *******,
Thanks. We gotyour order for a 48 sim card. We'll let you know as soon as it's in thepost. If you need to unlock your phone, now's the time to do it. There'sa clever unlock guide here,take a look around.
Meanwhile, thecrew are running a background check on you, to ensure you're proper 48material. Won't be long.
Just kidding.(Or are we?)
Go Conquer.
48 crew

I especially like the last few lines!

JTMan

berrypendel wrote: »

what did they say?

They did not reply to 2 seperate emails. Will give them a wee while longer before I try and escalate.

lovetorun

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that by offering one group a discount that overall, everyone gets charged more?

Oh stop giving out about it!!!

lovetorun

so you are the whingers who phone into mobile phone companies and run up the wait times hahaha

get over yourselves.....you have to accept you are just too old!!

:D:D:D

Nalz

lovetorun wrote: »

so you are the whingers who phone into mobile phone companies and run up the wait times hahaha

get over yourselves.....you have to accept you are just too old!!

:D:D:D

clap clap... cheers for your input.

galwayjohn89

Really don't understand people getting their knickers in a twist over this. My local Woodies has 10% for all over 60's on a Thursday. IMC do a discount for unemployed people. Theres loads of examples.

Carawaystick

Vuzuggu wrote: »

Really don't understand people getting their knickers in a twist over this. My local Woodies has 10% for all over 60's on a Thursday.

This is illegal. Say they had a discount for white people on a Thursday instead.

Vuzuggu wrote: »

IMC do a discount for unemployed people. Theres loads of examples.

This is legal, having no job is not something you are, and not one of the legal reasons to not discriminate.


just applied, we'll see how this pans out.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

This is illegal. Say they had a discount for white people on a Thursday instead.

Read section 16 of the act.

marketty

Vuzuggu wrote: »

Really don't understand people getting their knickers in a twist over this. My local Woodies has 10% for all over 60's on a Thursday. IMC do a discount for unemployed people. Theres loads of examples.

Yeah but this one favours young people and we can't have that.
Insurance companies discount older drivers because they are less of a risk of having an accident.
Mobile carriers discount young people cos they call and text constantly and are less of a risk of ringing up whining about not being able to use their phone like the elderly do.
Anyway anyone can get this so chill out lads

drkpower

Carawaystick wrote: »

This is illegal.

Why do so many people not even read the Act; browse the Equality Authority's website; or do a little bit of googling, before coming to a view. It seems that having all of the relevant information at one's fingertips actually makes people more confident in their unfounded opinions ..... yet lazier when it comes to actually looking for information. A dangerous combination. They see something that appears unequal and shout 'aha, a breach of equality' without first checking to see what 'equality' actually means in law.

The fact that this was a policy advertised from the rooftops by O2, who I suspect are well lawyered-up, and would not fancy the publicity of being held to be breaching equality law, should have given anyone with an ounce of sense pause for thought.

In any case, it is quite clear that providers of goods and services, providers of accommodation and clubs are allowed to impose and maintain a reasonable preferential fee, charge or rate in respect of anything offered to persons together with their children, married couples, persons in a specific age group and persons with a disability. The type of activity that 02 are engaged in is clearly covered by various sections of the Equal Status Acts, especially section 16 and arguably section 14.

lovetorun

Trilla wrote: »

clap clap... cheers for your input.

you are very welcome sweetie

Procrastastudy

Asks for date of birth when registering the sim. I might have got mine a bit wrong...

Triangla

On a side note, you have 60 months being 18 to 22.

Should they not have called it 60?

dbagman

Triangla wrote: »

On a side note, you have 60 months being 18 to 22.

Should they not have called it 60?

its not inclusive of your 22nd year.18 TO 22, i.e. it ends as soon as you turn 22.so thats 18,19,20 and 21,48 months

mawsy

Thanks Victor (and a few other folk) for the unbiased legal info. had to sift through a bit of some serious misinformation, but got there in the end .

All I can see it as, is a quick and easy cheap scam, to get young people on the 02 network (probably not make alot of profit while doing so) then keeping them there when the contracts up. If they let everyone on, then I guess profits would be down... still doesnt make it right though.

They'd have been better off having a "willy wonka" style "first 20,000 school students over 18 to join gets in on our lovely new limited network". something like that. Not sure I'd have minded that as much. But they've definitely advertised it poorly. It seems very ageist.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Just a question on the actual pricing of this,

It works like this. Every month you need to pay a €10 membership fee. The 48 membership covers you for unlimited calls and texts to any mobile network*, at any time. To get your great value calls and texts you need to top up by €10 and then go to Buy Stuff to pay your membership. If you have a credit or debit card you can pay your membership straight from your card. But when your membership runs out, you’re out of the 48 community and you won’t get your unlimited calls and texts – so don’t be left in the cold. To get back in you’ll need to top up and pay your membership, then you can get chatting.

Is this not €20 a month?

Victor

I think they mean use the top-up to pay for the membership.

foranyxcus

With regard to advertising, the Equal Status Acts state that a person shall
not publish or display, or cause to be published or displayed, an
advertisement which indicates an intention to discriminate, harass,
sexually harass, or might reasonably be understood as indicating such an
intention.

48months is clearly in breach of this provision.

prety

I would not recommend this network. Got mine few days ago and topup 10euro. I can not make any phone call to any network except freecall to 1800xxxxxx. Be careful, guys.

blu3i

prety wrote: »

I would not recommend this network. Got mine few days ago and topup 10euro. I can not make any phone call to any network except freecall to 1800xxxxxx. Be careful, guys.

that's because you only topped up u didn't pay the membership, go to the website log in and click pay membership you can then use the 10 top up to pay your membership
this video cleares alot of problems up

Corkgirl18

Hey I'm buying a new phone and I'm on the 48 network. Whats the best thing to do? Buy any phone and get it unlocked? .

billy the squid

lovetorun wrote: »

i think its a genius idea!! Well done o2 for lowering prices, everyone who whinges about it is just jealous that they are not students anymore....

student loan discounts have been around forever...you dont hear people whinging that the banks are agist....its just advertisement!!

Great , great , great idea!! All the people in that age group are meteor die hards and it is going to take an amazing idea like o2's to rob them...

Well done o2!!:)

Student discounts are not age specific, I am 35 an can get student discounts, all i have to do is show my ID card.

ShaneFinneran

Everyone is 18-22 at some stage therefore there is no ground for discrimination.

Solair

ShaneFinneran wrote: »

Everyone is 18-22 at some stage therefore there is no ground for discrimination.

It's discrimination on the ground of age.

Legally, you the only distinctions you can make are minor vs adult when it comes to provision of services.

from : http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_authority.html
"
The Employment Equality Acts 1998-2011 and the Equal Status Acts 2000-2011 outlaw discrimination in employment, vocational training, advertising, collective agreements, the provision of goods and services. Specifically, goods and services include professional or trade services; health services; access to accommodation and education; facilities for banking, transport and cultural activities. Under the equality legislation discrimination based on any one of 9 distinct grounds is unlawful. These grounds are:

• Gender
• Civil status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age (does not apply to a person under 16)
• Disability
• Race
• Membership of the Traveller community.

"

daenerysstormborn3

Just spotted this thread and was wondering about motorbike insurance providers that discriminate against under 25s. There are two motorbike insurance providers who will not even quote you if you are under 25, I am speaking from experience. Is this legal and if so, how is it legal? Surely it is classed as discrimination.

NuMarvel

The Equal Status acts have an exemption for financial products based on risk where it can be shown that statistical or actuarial data supports differential treatment. In your case, it seems they're using this to exempt all applicants under a certain age.

However, according to the National Consumer Agency, they must give you a reason in writing if you ask them to, and if you are refused by three insurers you can go to the Irish Insurance Federation. You can get more info about that here - http://www.nca.ie/nca/car-insurance#refused.

ShaneFinneran

Solair wrote: »

It's discrimination on the ground of age.

Legally, you the only distinctions you can make are minor vs adult when it comes to provision of services.

from : http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_authority.html
"
The Employment Equality Acts 1998-2011 and the Equal Status Acts 2000-2011 outlaw discrimination in employment, vocational training, advertising, collective agreements, the provision of goods and services. Specifically, goods and services include professional or trade services; health services; access to accommodation and education; facilities for banking, transport and cultural activities. Under the equality legislation discrimination based on any one of 9 distinct grounds is unlawful. These grounds are:

• Gender
• Civil status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age (does not apply to a person under 16)
• Disability
• Race
• Membership of the Traveller community.

"

If that's the case why aren't they being sued

nxbyveromdwjpg

Has anyone actually been denied the service for being outside the age bracket?

Going by the thread in Bargain Alerts anyone can sign up, the 18 - 22 seems to just be marketing