Pine martin

TriggerPL

Pine Martin
just wondering if people in general know the diference ? mink , stoat pine martin are all from the same family but only the mink are not protected .

I know this one case where a pinemartin got into a womans kitchen and she rang the local gun club and the gardai, who in turn rang the ranger and before the gun club member got there the ranger had landed and said it was a pine martin and that she would have to leave the door and windows open and let it leave by it self .

warning the club member that if he tryed to trap or kill it that he would see to it that he lost his guns over in .

4 hours and a wrecked kitchen later the pinemartin left , causing damage in the area of 800 yoyo's .

Pinemartins are protected by forestry to try and tackle the grey squriel problem , but its the pinemartin that has became the problem .

Birdnuts

Interesting story but I think you'll find most Foresters would prefer to have Pinemartens in their plantations rather then Grey Squirrels. The damagage these guys do to young broadleaves in particular has to be seen to be beleived. Your man in the Farming Indo(Joe Barry) has done a few great pieces on this problem

Cass

TriggerPL wrote: »

Pine Martin
just wondering if people in general know the diference ? mink , stoat pine martin are all from the same family but only the mink are not protected .

I would hope so. They have been posted about many times including pictures. Here is a post i regularly use.

One thing is to be sure what you're shooting. Last thing we want is a load of pictures of "mink" being posted or returned that aren't mink. Identify your quarry.

Mink


Stoat


Pine Marten

Otter

, but its the pinemartin that has became the problem .

Problem or not they are protected.

TriggerPL

tryed to reply there and it told me it was closed .

@ bignut

pine martins were introduced from country where the grey squrriel is a problem and granted the grey is plenty full in part of ireland , in most parts they are not so the pine martin turns to your ground nesting birds and your phesent nests groose partridge birds that are easy caught !

much like the red fox introduced into oz to tackle that rabbit problem , why would he hunt for rabbit that can run when he could eat a big fat kowalla bear instead

Cass

Eh, no. You just posted in it.:D

TriggerPL

Experts call for pine marten cull to save the capercaillie

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By Barnaby Dracup
Tuesday, 03 June 2008
Scottish Natural Heritage's scientific advisor has backed the culling of pine martens to protect capercaillie numbers.

The scientific advisor to Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) has said pine martens should have their protected status removed and be culled in parts of Scotland to save the endangered capercaillie.
Speaking to the SNH and the RSPB at a recent conference, Professor Torstein Storaas, professor of wildlife management at Hedmark University College, near Oslo, highlighted the fact that the Highlands were not big enough to accommodate both species.
He commented that, in areas where there was conflict, pine martens should be sacrificed. Since the 1970s, the number of capercaillie has plummeted from about 20,000 to 2,000.
“Capercaillie are being killed by predators such as pine martens and the control of predators in the most important capercaillie areas should be [allowed]. In my view, if predator numbers were reduced, the capercaillie could survive,” Mr Storaas said.
The first study to assess the impact of pine martens will be published later this year by RSPB Scotland, which has set up covert cameras on 20 different capercaillie nests on its Abernethy Forest reserve in the Eastern Highlands. The footage shows pine martens stealing eggs from almost all of the nests, suggesting that up to 80% of all capercaillie eggs are eaten by the animals.
Importantly, a change in legislation would enable ministers to grant special licences allowing for protected species to be controlled to preserve stocks of other threatened animals.

Cass

To be brutally honest this is more an issue about Pine Martens as a species, and as they cannot be hunted, etc i think the hunting forum is not the correct venue for this discussion.

Moving to Nature, and Bird Watching.

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

tryed to reply there and it told me it was closed .

@ bignut

pine martins were introduced from country where the grey squrriel is a problem and granted the grey is plenty full in part of ireland , in most parts they are not so the pine martin turns to your ground nesting birds and your phesent nests groose partridge birds that are easy caught !

much like the red fox introduced into oz to tackle that rabbit problem , why would he hunt for rabbit that can run when he could eat a big fat kowalla bear instead

Pine Martins were not introduced:rolleyes: - they are a native species that has been here since the last Ice-age. They were on the brink of extinction by the sixties but have since made a recovery with protection from places like the Burren and the NW. Native partridges and other ground nesting birds lived with them fine for thousands of years until changes in farming practices like the use of sprays and silage making wiped out their food and nesting sites which continues to be problem for species such as Corncrakes. American Mink are a different matter for obvious reasons.

TriggerPL

seeing are you posted the difference between pinemartin and mink it should be left in hunting to , show diference for future hunters should it not ? feel free to lock the thread but leave it where it is !

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

Experts call for pine marten cull to save the capercaillie

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By Barnaby Dracup
Tuesday, 03 June 2008
Scottish Natural Heritage's scientific advisor has backed the culling of pine martens to protect capercaillie numbers.

The scientific advisor to Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) has said pine martens should have their protected status removed and be culled in parts of Scotland to save the endangered capercaillie.
Speaking to the SNH and the RSPB at a recent conference, Professor Torstein Storaas, professor of wildlife management at Hedmark University College, near Oslo, highlighted the fact that the Highlands were not big enough to accommodate both species.
He commented that, in areas where there was conflict, pine martens should be sacrificed. Since the 1970s, the number of capercaillie has plummeted from about 20,000 to 2,000.
“Capercaillie are being killed by predators such as pine martens and the control of predators in the most important capercaillie areas should be [allowed]. In my view, if predator numbers were reduced, the capercaillie could survive,” Mr Storaas said.
The first study to assess the impact of pine martens will be published later this year by RSPB Scotland, which has set up covert cameras on 20 different capercaillie nests on its Abernethy Forest reserve in the Eastern Highlands. The footage shows pine martens stealing eggs from almost all of the nests, suggesting that up to 80% of all capercaillie eggs are eaten by the animals.
Importantly, a change in legislation would enable ministers to grant special licences allowing for protected species to be controlled to preserve stocks of other threatened animals.

What has an exceptional situation in another country got to do with Pine Martins in this country?? - if such a situation arose in Ireland I'm sure the NPWS would follow scientific advice too which i certainly wouldn't object too. The NPWS already steps in when a particular protected species is proven to be causing a particular problem. In the case of Pine Martins they trap and re-locate them under licence which is the very same thing that happened with this isolated case in Scotland. Granting a free for all to every Tom, Dick and Harry to kill any currently protected species they please would simply lead to many species becoming rare or extinct again and potentially do terrible damage to the public image of the sport of hunting.

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

Pine Martins were not introduced:rolleyes: - they are a native species that has been here since the last Ice-age. They were on the brink of extinction by the sixties but have since made a recovery with protection from places like the Burren and the NW. Native partridges and other ground nesting birds lived with them fine for thousands of years until changes in farming practices like the use of sprays and silage making wiped out their food and nesting sites which continues to be problem for species such as Corncrakes. American Mink are a different matter for obvious reasons.

[Pictures Of Doon] [Sounds]

Pine Martin: Martes Martes.

Ireland's most elusive land mammal, it was probably far more widespread in Irish Woodlands but loss of its natural habitat combined with persecution by gamekeepers forced it to retreat to rocky and remote areas west of the Shannon. It is suggested that it was introduced to Ireland by the Vikings and that it is probably the 'cat' referred to in Irish poetry and placenames. Cat Crainn (tree cat) suggests the pine martin is quite at home in the branches where it is capable of catching a squirrel in a tree and often robs nests of their eggs and chicks. On open ground it darts around with zig-zag movement tracing potential prey by scent.

An omnivore - the menu might include earthworms, beetles, frogs, lizards, bees, earwigs, snails, small mammals, birds and their eggs, berries, nuts and crab apples. The scrubland is more attractive habitat than mature woodland. The largest males may weight up to 1.5kg, its length may reach 53Omm. The female's length is 45Omm.

Last time i checked the 13th hundreds wasnt the ice age

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

What has an exceptional situation in another country got to do with Pine Martins in this country?? - if such a situation arose in Ireland I'm sure the NPWS would follow scientific advice too which i certainly wouldn't object too. The NPWS already steps in when a particular protected species is proven to be causing a particular problem. In the case of Pine Martins they trap and re-locate them under licence which is the very same thing that happened with this isolated case in Scotland. Granting a free for all to every Tom, Dick and Harry to kill any currently protected species they please would simply lead to many species becoming rare or extinct again and potentially do terrible damage to the public image of the sport of hunting.

the same is happening here to the irish groose . and other ground nesting birds . the irish groose soc has had meeting after meeting to try and get some sort of control on them but still after proof of what is happening they still are not allow act .

tell ya what buy 20 pheasent put them in a pen raise them till there ready to release and then leave a hole for pinemartin or mink and see who your first visitor is !! see if ya feel the same afterwards!

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

[Pictures Of Doon] [Sounds]

Pine Martin: Martes Martes.

Ireland's most elusive land mammal, it was probably far more widespread in Irish Woodlands but loss of its natural habitat combined with persecution by gamekeepers forced it to retreat to rocky and remote areas west of the Shannon. It is suggested that it was introduced to Ireland by the Vikings and that it is probably the 'cat' referred to in Irish poetry and placenames. Cat Crainn (tree cat) suggests the pine martin is quite at home in the branches where it is capable of catching a squirrel in a tree and often robs nests of their eggs and chicks. On open ground it darts around with zig-zag movement tracing potential prey by scent.

An omnivore - the menu might include earthworms, beetles, frogs, lizards, bees, earwigs, snails, small mammals, birds and their eggs, berries, nuts and crab apples. The scrubland is more attractive habitat than mature woodland. The largest males may weight up to 1.5kg, its length may reach 53Omm. The female's length is 45Omm.

Last time i checked the 13th hundreds wasnt the ice age

I think your friend might be mis-informed - remains have been found dating back nearly 2000 years.

Check out your local library where you will find ENFO leaflets on Pine Martins - I' think they are online so I'l try and dig them up later

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

Pine Martins were not introduced:rolleyes: - they are a native species that has been here since the last Ice-age. They were on the brink of extinction by the sixties but have since made a recovery with protection from places like the Burren and the NW. Native partridges and other ground nesting birds lived with them fine for thousands of years until changes in farming practices like the use of sprays and silage making wiped out their food and nesting sites which continues to be problem for species such as Corncrakes. American Mink are a different matter for obvious reasons.

also on this note farmers have beem making silage for years and the reason ground nesting birds survived in such numbers is because there was control on pinemartin same as foxs and mink , that along with land been use for farming and not planted kepted these number under control .

now there is more plantation along with the protection of pinemartin has give them the chance to recover to the point of vermin again

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

the same is happening here to the irish groose . and other ground nesting birds . the irish groose soc has had meeting after meeting to try and get some sort of control on them but still after proof of what is happening they still are not allow act .

If you can point me to a scientific study that backs up those claims I would be interested in reading it - I read the report from the recent Irish Grouse Society AGM and unless I read it wrong there was no mention of Pine Martins.

PS: The latest pop estimates for Red Grouse show that the population has held steady at 5000 birds for the last 15 or so years. This bird has been declining for decades(long before Pine Martins made a recovery) thanx to distruction of bogs by drainage and forestry. Work by the NPWS and certain Gun clubs has helped to steady populations on various SAC's and National Parks though it continues to shrink in range on many raised bogs that continue to be damaged by peat extraction.

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think your friend might be mis-informed - remains have been found dating back nearly 2000 years.

Check out your local library where you will find ENFO leaflets on Pine Martins - I' think they are online so I'l try and dig them up later

http://www.wicklowmountainsnationalpark.ie/PineMarten.html

close to home for you to . pay close attention to what pinemartins eat !

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

also on this note farmers have beem making silage for years and the reason ground nesting birds survived in such numbers is because there was control on pinemartin same as foxs and mink , that along with land been use for farming and not planted kepted these number under control .

now there is more plantation along with the protection of pinemartin has give them the chance to recover to the point of vermin again

Silage making only became widespread in the country since the early 60's - everything from breeding Lapwings to Corncrakes(30,000 pairs in 1950 to a handfull today) have crashed since then. Ask any old timer. Farmers currently get grants from the NPWS to make Hay instead(cut in late August) which is the only thing keeping the few breeders going in the country ATM.

PS: Get a hold of a copy of Ireland Lost Birds by Gordon Darcy - its all laid out there with all the studies to back up his work and traces how the birds disappeared from any area where the early cutting of fields for silage started. Also covers the Grey Partridge etc.

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

http://www.wicklowmountainsnationalpark.ie/PineMarten.html

close to home for you to . pay close attention to what pinemartins eat !

I know what they eat - its called the balance of nature. The also eat rats, grey squirrels and young mink. Are you suggesting the only wildlife that should be protected are species that never eat meat or other animals??. If thats the case we'd be quickly over-run with ever larger numbers of rodents, crows, wood pigeons etc.

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

I know what they eat - its called the balance of nature. The also eat rats, grey squirrels and young mink. Are you suggesting the only wildlife that should be protected are species that never eat meat or other animals??. If thats the case we'd be quickly over-run with ever larger numbers of rodents, crows, wood pigeons etc.

im suggestion that they should be controlled like mink or foxs , there are not even half as many hunter as there was a hundred years ago and there fur is worth noting in this country so people wont be out for the money , and in this part of the country while out fox shooting ive often seen them in trees which says their not in decline so , there is no reason for the protection in my opinion !

mathepac

As I mentioned in at least one other thread, I am delighted to see our native pine marten establishing itself again and becoming a viable species. As for the poor woman in the OP, I feel sorry she suffered the fright and destruction of property. I live in the country and have learned to keep windows open just enough to allow air in but to keep unwanted visitors outside. I like observing them but in their own habitat, not mine!

One of the reasons I'm happy to see our pine martens back is as a previous poster said: to help control the verminous and deadly mink, grey squirrels etc. If the pine martens get enough of these, nesting birds should be relatively safe. Do we know what numbers of eggs greys and mink take - why is the pine marten being singled out?

Just bye-the bye, grouse are game, and hunters kill vast numbers each year (in comparison to pine martens) for food, sport, and other uses. If there is concern about the grouse number amongst hunters, why not stop hunting them or introduce quotas? An alternative prey animal for human hunters might be the greys or mink, at least one of which carries a bounty.

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

im suggestion that they should be controlled like mink or foxs , there are not even half as many hunter as there was a hundred years ago and there fur is worth noting in this country so people wont be out for the money , and in this part of the country while out fox shooting ive often seen them in trees which says their not in decline so , there is no reason for the protection in my opinion !

Well the fact that they nearly went extinct before suggests they cannot be treated like Mink and Foxes, who appear to be able to thrive despite having been always on the "vermin" list. That is why only the NPWS have power to deal with "problem" cases as they arise. Why not contact the NPWS youself about the matter and see what they have to say??


PS: I don't know what part of the country you lamp foxes in, but in these parts I've only ever seen one Pine Martin while out after Charlie. I also control Mink and Foxes on the in-laws farm in North Mayo(by the coast) and the closest place I've seen them to there is 12 miles away near Bangor Erris. What part of the country are you in since you appear to have encountered far more then I have?

Pissmire

TriggerPL wrote: »

there is no reason for the protection in my opinion !

See, there's your problem right there. You have an opinion. You're not qualified to have an opinion on whether an animal should be exterminated or not. This is why you haven't received a call from the Minister of the environment asking your advice.

Teeth and claws are worthy of a death sentence in the opinions too many shooters.

wildlifeboy

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well the fact that they nearly went extinct before suggests they cannot be treated like Mink and Foxes, who appear to be able to thrive despite having been always on the "vermin" list. That is why only the NPWS have power to deal with "problem" cases as they arise. Why not contact the NPWS youself about the matter and see what they have to say??


PS: I don't know what part of the country you lamp foxes in, but in these parts I've only ever seen one Pine Martin while out after Charlie. I also control Mink and Foxes on the in-laws farm in North Mayo(by the coast) and the closest place I've seen them to there is 12 miles away near Bangor Erris. What part of the country are you in since you appear to have encountered far more then I have?

Hey I have family in Bangor Erris and would love to go out and try to watch Pine Martens. Would you pm me wherabouts you saw them? I am presuming the wooded areas between Bangor and Bellacorick along the owenmore. strong population of red deer and otters along that stretch too but never saw a Marten.

Dusty87

Pissmire wrote: »

See, there's your problem right there. You have an opinion. You're not qualified to have an opinion on whether an animal should be exterminated or not. This is why you haven't received a call from the Minister of the environment asking your advice.

Teeth and claws are worthy of a death sentence in the opinions too many shooters.

how many 'shooters' opinions have you asked?

Pissmire

Dusty87 wrote: »

how many 'shooters' opinions have you asked?

I was one until about twelve or thirteen years ago, so my opinions on the subject are based on experience. Then I went soft, my guns may be piles of rust in the gun cabinet by now, haven't seen them for years.

I do know a lot of shooters are responsible, unfortunately this can't be said for all. However as there's only one shooter, so far as I am aware, on this thread, TriggerPL, and he advocates the killing of Pine Marten, I have his opinion, admittedly unasked for.

I'm passionate about wildlife, birds in particular, nothing I like better than to rant about wildlife crime. I don't have a problem with people shooting, only what's on the list though. Would rather see curlews off the list though, if they are still on it.

Dusty87

@Pissmire,
Birdnuts and myself are also hunters and we dont share the same view as triggerPL.
Curlew are still on the list. I have no interest in shooting them myself along with a lot of members in the shooting forum. There was an interesting thread in the hunting section about them a while ago.

Pissmire

Dusty87 wrote: »

@Pissmire,
Birdnuts and myself are also hunters and we dont share the same view as triggerPL.
Curlew are still on the list. I have no interest in shooting them myself along with a lot of members in the shooting forum. There was an interesting thread in the hunting section about them a while ago.

I realise that there will always be those who target non-legal quarry, I don't doubt that these are a minority, thankfully. I can't imagine what the numbers of mink, hooded crows and magpies would be like if it wasn't for the efforts of gun clubs and their members, so there is a place for them.

A poor decision to include Curlew on the list. Look at this [URL="http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue22July2011/CatastrophicCurlewdeclinesuncovered/tabid/1189/Default.aspx]Curlew decline[/url]"]Curlew decline[/URL] makes no sense at all.

I'm going to stop here or I'll be told go the shooting section.

All the best.

Mothman

Pissmire wrote: »

I'm going to stop here or I'll be told go the shooting section.

On that note I've locked thread

It has gone off topic for nature forum.