The war in Libya continues.

Means Of Escape

Jonny7 wrote: »

What government forces?



There's been no elections yet




Still, I am outraged, OUTRAGED I tell you that it has not turned into a functioning utopian democracy overnight.. and I *disclaimer* dictatorships are bad, but at least life was "peaceful" under Gadaffi, before the usual culprits regime changed him

Hope the fighting tribes share out the 20000 heat seeking missiles and a large number of launchers both shoulder and vehicle fired, that have gone missing since the "coup",to help even out things!

Means Of Escape

It does seem to me that having actively promoted and orchestrated the desired regime change,it is disappointing that the UN/NATO consortium then simply beat a hasty retreat leaving the "ordinary" Libyans to fend for themselves....:([/QUOTE]

I agree.
Interesting to note that Hillary Clinton has said that the missing missiles I mentioned is of serious concern to the US government.

Oh dear.

plasmaguy

Lest we forget, every democracy in the world has had massive problems and internal and even external conflicts in the immediate aftermath of a revolution which over-threw a tyrant, king or dictator.

Some of these include the US after the American Revolution, France after the French Revolution (took almost another 100 years before democracy was firmly established), Irish Republic (It took 30 years after the signing of the treaty before we fully shook off British rule in the south when we became a republic and the IRA never really went away, while tens of thousands of protestants were forced to leave the country in the early years of the state), UK (took hundreds of years before women and ordinary people had the vote), Russia (years of economic turmoil following fall of Soviet Union), Argentina, Chile, South Africa (little improvement in every day life of people since end of apartheid and free elections), Greece (economic turmoil, failure to pay taxes) India and Pakistan, massive ethnic and religious violence leaving over 1 million dead and so on and so forth.

There are very few smooth transititions to democracy out there, in fact, so far Libya has gotten off incredibly lightly compared to to the examples I mention above.

Democracy takes time particularly in the power vacuam that exists after over-throwing a dictator. It takes time to weed out the appointments made by the old regime, build a new army and so on, years in fact, but it has to be done nonetheless.

Jonny7

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed,and I share that Outrage...although perhaps not to the extent of Capitalizing it...

However,there is substantial and ongoing evidence that,what Jonny7 refers to as a Command & Control "Apparatus" has been relpaced with nothing les than an overwhelming and,for many,equally brutal and distasteful regime...

There hasn't been elections yet. Armed men just fought for 6 months against other armed men. What people have known and relied on for 40-odd years has pretty much been decimated, it's a lot for an unstable country to come to grips with.

The country has to recover, that's if it does recover.

As is referred to in this clip,the "New" Libya does not have a functional legal system,nor does it appear to be high on the agenda of the Government ,...sorry...Transitional Council...

And why would it have?

It does seem to me that having actively promoted and orchestrated the desired regime change,it is disappointing that the UN/NATO consortium then simply beat a hasty retreat leaving the "ordinary" Libyans to fend for themselves....:(

Again obscure comments, who retreated from where?

The rebels (NTC) and NATO agreed what to do after the conflict.

I seriously considered making up a fake story there were still NATO tanks in Northern Benghazi just to see if would swallow it as you have been demonstrating some impressive blagging skills when it comes to this conflict

Means Of Escape

Do nations really thrive under a democracy?
Have countries who have had supreme rulers always failed their people?
Should we foist our western ideals on other countries?
Democracy comes from the Greek word demos meaning for the people.
Are the dispossessed of democratic countries better off than the citizens of Libya were under Ghadaffi?
Is there a true understanding and knowledge of the way life was under his regime by outsiders looking in and if so are we best placed to take a supervisory role in the formation of the new Libya?
Let's accept that oil had nothing to do with the invasion of Libya and the only reason why he was ousted was for the good of the people long term is that a valid reason to spark off what will be years of strife and countless deaths. The Americans have now acknowledged that they have failed in Afghanistan. What now for them?
Not a drop of oil has emerged from Libya since March.
When the refineries start pumping again the landscape will change and whether it will be a positive change will depend on who is in power and whether every citizen has a say.
Some voices will be louder than others .

AlekSmart

Jonny7 wrote: »

There hasn't been elections yet. Armed Arabs just fought for 6 months against other armed Arabs. What people have known and relied on for 40-odd years has pretty much been decimated, it's a lot for a newly unstable country to come to grips with.

The country has to recover, that's if it does recover.

And why would it have?

Again obscure comments, who retreated from where?

The rebels (NTC) and NATO agreed what to do after the conflict.

I seriously considered making up a fake story there were still NATO tanks in Northern Benghazi just to see if would swallow it as you have been demonstrating some impressive blagging skills when it comes to this conflict

Thank you on the blagging compliment,I like to think I learned from a master....;)

I'm impressed that Jonny7 is confident that the "rebels" were a cohesive enough group to "agree" any exit strategy with, and for,NATO,as currently it appears that they don't possess enough to actually administer their newly accquired country as a single entity.

It's interesting to listen to Gadaffi speaking here in 2009 and also to watch the expressions on the "audience".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JHJw9SpCO4&feature=related

wingsof daun

Jonny7 wrote: »

My friend is down there working on getting the first proper elections in over 40 years underway, he's has been welcomed everywhere he has gone.

Benghazi has woke up to the reality of political bull****, now they are burning and tearing down propaganda piece of papers displayed all over the place by the rebel politicians trying to legitimize their rule over Libyan people and resources.

Is your friend still welcomed?

cyberhog

wingsof daun wrote: »

Benghazi has woke up to the reality of political bull****, now they are burning and tearing down propaganda piece of papers displayed all over the place by the rebel politicians trying to legitimize their rule over Libyan people and resources.

Is your friend still welcomed?

They have also sacked the Election Commission Offices.

Hundreds of armed protesters on Sunday attacked the offices of Libya’s election commission in two cities, Benghazi and Tobruk, in anger over the way seats in next week’s planned election for a constituent assembly were distributed among the country’s regions.

The protesters carried computers, ballot boxes and ballots out of the offices, and shattered and burned them in the streets outside, according to witnesses, news agencies and photographs that circulated on the Internet. Some of the attackers carried signs calling the leader of Libya’s interim government a “traitor” to the eastern region of the country, known as Cyrenaica, which the protesters said got too few seats in the assembly. Others demanded the writing of a constitution before elections.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/02/world/africa/election-commission-offices-sacked-in-libya-before-vote.html

Don't worry Jonny7's friend will sort it out! lol

AlekSmart

cyberhog wrote: »

They have also sacked the Election Commission Offices.


Don't worry Jonny7's friend will sort it out! lol

The protesters carried computers, ballot boxes and ballots out of the offices, and shattered and burned them in the streets outside, according to witnesses, news agencies and photographs that circulated on the Internet. Some of the attackers carried signs calling the leader of Libya’s interim government a “traitor” to the eastern region of the country, known as Cyrenaica, which the protesters said got too few seats in the assembly. Others demanded the writing of a constitution before elections.

Well I can immediately see a market for some NEW !,IMPROVED ! E-Voting machines to assist the Transitional Council in their endeavours to democratize Libya......Perhaps Martin Cullen is en-route as we speak ?

Means Of Escape

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well I can immediately see a market for some NEW !,IMPROVED ! E-Voting machines to assist the Transitional Council in their endeavours to democratize Libya......Perhaps Martin Cullen is en-route as we speak ?

No we have it all wrong.This mini defiant stance is a short term thing as Plasmaguy noted.It will all calm down in a few years.These people are not anti new order or do not have any vested interests for themselves nor are they pushing for their own.
They are simply venting the anger that has been surpressed under Ghaddaffi.
It will all work out!!!

Jonny7

me bolly wrote: »

No we have it all wrong.This mini defiant stance is a short term thing as Plasmaguy noted.It will all calm down in a few years.These people are not anti new order or do not have any vested interests for themselves nor are they pushing for their own.
They are simply venting the anger that has been surpressed under Ghaddaffi.
It will all work out!!!

Should hope so, took us long enough to get to where we are.

Even if they (and Egypt, etc) get some sort of functioning government, they will still have to battle the heavy religious influence and interference. The whole thing could easily wobble over to the Iranian version of democracy or similar - with religious clerics running the state.

plasmaguy

Wingsofdaun, did you circle the guy with the beard for any apparant reason?

Because many Irish politicians have/had beards, does that mean they should be banned from politics too?

The new president of Egypt has a beard, what about him?

I'm still unsure why circling a guy with a beard is supposed to back up your point?

On a more general note -

France after the overthrow of the monarch: reign of terror, ethnic and religious cleansing, civil war, rise of Napolean and all out European war in which millions died.

Britain after overthrow of Charles I : Civil war lasting 12 years, rise of Cromwell, war in Ireland, ethnic cleansing.

US after indepedence - war with Britain

Russia - economic turmoil, poverty, alcololism epidemic, two wars in Chechnia as it tried to become independent.

India - ethnic cleansing of Muslims

Israel - invasion by all its neighbours in 1948

South Africa: massive tribal conflict post 1994 in which thousands died - the welfare of most South Africans has not improved one iota.

Now, compare that with Libya where the worst that has happened was a few nutjobs wiping each other out which should be fine with everyone and a few more nutjobs burning ballot boxes and in case anything thinks these were Al Quida, they weren't, they are a small but vocal minority who want Eastern Libya to become an autonomous region. They have little support and little prospect of any success.

Let's all give the Libyans a chance and cut them some slack, they've been through a tough time lately, instead of wishing them to fail like some posters are so as to back up their own anti NATO, anti Western agenda.

The overthrow of Gadaffi was the greatest thing that has ever befallen Libya and when armchair commentators in their cozy homes in Ireland who never have experienced his tyranny try to say he was good for Libya, they simply do not know what they are talking about, as they didn't have to go through the experience of the threat of arrest or being shopped in if they discussed politics, secret police and informers (reckoned to have been 25% of the population), Abu Slim massacre, and dozens more chronic human rights infringements which was par for the course under Gadaffi.

Eggy Baby!

Russia (years of economic turmoil following fall of Soviet Union)

Even a Russophile like me can admit that Russia was hardly a democracy after the USSR fell.

when armchair commentators in their cozy homes in Ireland

Don't act aloof. That is technically you.

Let's all give the Libyans a chance and cut them some slack, they've been through a tough time lately, instead of wishing them to fail like some posters are so as to back up their own anti NATO, anti Western agenda.

I don't think that anyone is willing them to fail. Again another insult based on imaginary pretenses.

The overthrow of Gadaffi was the greatest thing that has ever befallen Libya

Time will tell.

France after the overthrow of the monarch: reign of terror, ethnic and religious cleansing, civil war, rise of Napolean and all out European war in which millions died.

These are just a series of unrelated events you have strung together in order to further your point that all (or most) democracies go through periods of rocky transition. Napoleon took power because nobody in France could take the mantle of power. The only thing that really happened as a result of the democratic transition was the reign of terror.

Russia - economic turmoil, poverty, alcololism epidemic, two wars in Chechnia as it tried to become independent.

Are you calling Russia a democracy? If so, you are redeemed of all your mistaken rants!



We are saying that Libya is sliding into anarchy following the massive vacuum caused by Gaddafi's death. I don't think you truly appreciate the hold such a paranoid dictator can exercise over his people, and how hard such an incapacitated country can fall when this grip is released.

plasmaguy

I'd love to know what some posters on here would have considered the alternative method was to overthrowing Gadaffi?

Or maybe they just think he should have been left in power which makes them an apologist for him and his behaviour and a defender of his behaviour. I hope such posters have the courage just this once to admit they are a defender of Gadaffi and his ilk.

I doubt they will though.

As Johny said earlier, these threads always degenerate into the gutter when a certain ilk of poster gets a hold of them and ryhme or reason goes out the window.

Sometimes I feel its best to leave threads like this to them, you cannot win with these people.

I expect a mod warning to follow this but honestly at this stage I'd prefer a ban from the politics forum so I don't have to read the usual sh*te from the usual anti American/anti West/anti Nato, anti everything posters. They get incredibly boring after a while.

They are so obviously wind up merchants it isn't funny.

plasmaguy

Well at least the new NTC allow protests.

If that protest was in Gadaffi's time they'd all be in prison or shot by now.

Oh look a protest in Ireland.

http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/irish-people-should-join-spanish-strikers-in-resisting-diastrous-austerity/

Clearly proof Ireland is descending into anarchy, I mean a protest is always proof a country is descending into anarchy.

Eggy Baby!

Sometimes I feel its best to leave threads like this to them, you cannot win with these people.

Tell me about it!!

wingsof daun

plasmaguy wrote: »

Now, compare that with Libya where the worst that has happened was a few nutjobs wiping each other out which should be fine with everyone and a few more nutjobs burning ballot boxes and in case anything thinks these were Al Quida, they weren't, they are a small but vocal minority who want Eastern Libya to become an autonomous region. They have little support and little prospect of any success.

Let's all give the Libyans a chance and cut them some slack, they've been through a tough time lately, instead of wishing them to fail like some posters are so as to back up their own anti NATO, anti Western agenda.

The overthrow of Gadaffi was the greatest thing that has ever befallen Libya and when armchair commentators in their cozy homes in Ireland who never have experienced his tyranny try to say he was good for Libya, they simply do not know what they are talking about, as they didn't have to go through the experience of the threat of arrest or being shopped in if they discussed politics, secret police and informers (reckoned to have been 25% of the population), Abu Slim massacre, and dozens more chronic human rights infringements which was par for the course under Gadaffi.

We say he is good for Libya because he WAS...it's not some notion we invernted to legitimize our support for him. You are trying to stain left-wing sympathizers who aren't into shoving your form of democracy down people throats, tribal people who seem backward and from the stone age but have a wealth of knowledge and spirituality. They are terrified of people from the west. Most of your assertions are ludicrous and vague btw!

Scofflaw

OK, this thread is descending into a quagmire of personal remarks and trench warfare, and is therefore on notice of closure plus going through it with the banhammer and infraction gun.

Please bear that in mind before posting further.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Eggy Baby!

I think its too early to be making conclusions about Libya. All of our opinions are actually based on futurism. Time will tell, as I said.

Means Of Escape

There is no anti NATO or anti American beliefs among the posters who did not agree with the invasion of Libya. An argument against the action is being debated here on these pages. Whatever one believes the outcome may or may not be ,there is a fundamental flaw in the move to take out Ghadaffi most notably after he agreed to pay reparations to the Lickerbie victims,guaranteed no future nuclear programme and the west were beginning to start trading with him again.I cannot help believing that there is am insidious reason to this uprising with vested interests at play which is not designed for the good of rhe people.Most people accept that with all dictatorships there will be groups supressed more than others.However Ghadaffi reign was going to come to a natural end.His sin Saif, a well educated man, I believe would have taken Libya into a prosperous future. We will never know. By foisting our ideals on another country we have left them in a quagmire where embittered citizens will constantly be at loggerheads without a firm leader. It always seemed to be the case that these Middle Eastern countries evolved under a supreme ruler and despite the modernisation of these nations the concept of democracy is alien to generations of people. Ayotollah Khomeni in Iran, Mubarak in Egypt King Abdullah of Jordan Although they have a veil of democratic rule they all rule with an iron fist. If NATO had not intervened another coup would have been quelled as all attempted coups have been quelled on countries all over the world down through the years.Ghadaffi knew the calibre of the people attempting to rise up and knew what they would do to Libya.

plasmaguy

me bolly wrote: »

:rolleyes:An argument against the action is being debated here on these pages. Whatever one believes the outcome may or may not be ,there is a fundamental flaw in the move to take out Ghadaffi most notably after he agreed to pay reparations to the Lickerbie victims,guaranteed no future nuclear programme and the west were beginning to start trading with him again.I cannot help believing that there is am insidious reason to this uprising with vested interests at play which is not designed for the good of rhe people.Most people accept that with all dictatorships there will be groups supressed more than others.However Ghadaffi reign was going to come to a natural end.His sin Saif, a well educated man, I believe would have taken Libya into a prosperous future. We will never know. By foisting our ideals on another country we have left them in a quagmire where embittered citizens will constantly be at loggerheads without a firm leader. It always seemed to be the case that these Middle Eastern countries evolved under a supreme ruler and despite the modernisation of these nations the concept of democracy is alien to generations of people. Ayotollah Khomeni in Iran, Mubarak in Egypt King Abdullah of Jordan Although they have a veil of democratic rule they all rule with an iron fist. If NATO had not intervened another coup would have been quelled as all attempted coups have been quelled on countries all over the world down through the years.Ghadaffi knew the calibre of the people attempting to rise up and knew what they would do to Libya.

His son would not have been any more liberal or democratic than his father. All these President for Life sons are just the exact replica of their dads. They promise reform and more freedom at the start of their reign but gradually become more and more tyranical until they try to outdo their father in terms of brutality. It's the same with Assad jnr, he's already outdone his father and shows no sign of stopping. Meanwhile the people of the region have to suffer at the hands of these tyrants.

Means Of Escape

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I think its too early to be making conclusions about Libya. All of our opinions are actually based on futurism. Time will tell, as I said.

Pick up a copy of the latest TIME magazine
entitled" The Revolution That Wasnt" with reference to Egypt
Libya is no different .

plasmaguy

me bolly wrote: »

Pick up a copy of the latest TIME magazine
entitled" The Revolution That Wasnt" with reference to Egypt
Libya is no different .

Far far too early to decide if either country will be a failed or succesful democracy.

In any case your argument that both countries are the same is laughably wrong.

Egypt has a powerful military that pulls the strings.

Libya has no powerful military at the moment, that's its main problem and is struggling to even maintain law and order.

Two completely opposite situations.

I also would remind you that Ireland in the 1920s was in a far worse state than Libya is today. There were assasinations of government ministers, the IRA was still going strong, tens of thousands of protestants were run out of the country, the country was effectively bankrupt with no oil money as Libya has, Fianna Fail didn't even sit in the Dail until 1927 and there were several other problems. Compared to most democracies today, Libya has had it easy. Far to early to judge as I said, let's wait and see at least 5 years as there is rarely a smooth transition from dictatorship to democracy, just look at Burma as an example.

But of course we will still have the usual posters trying to use Libya as a way to complain about the US, even though the US role in the overthrow of Gadaffi was negligible after they fired a few cruise missiles at the start.

Gadaffi was a mass murdering thug, and most Libyans are delighted he's gone and that's good enough for me.

Eggy Baby!

I also would remind you that Ireland in the 1920s was in a far worse state than Libya is today. There were assasinations of government ministers, the IRA was still going strong, tens of thousands of protestants were run out of the country, the country was effectively bankrupt with no oil money as Libya has, Fianna Fail didn't even sit in the Dail until 1927 and there were several other problems. Compared to most democracies today, Libya has had it easy. Far to early to judge as I said, let's wait and see at least 5 years as there is rarely a smooth transition from dictatorship to democracy, just look at Burma as an example.

Ireland was far more mild in the 1920s than Libya is now. The UK had already set up a democratic culture here, something which Libya has never had.
Added to that we never had the tribal divisions, the level of religious fundamentalism and our actual independence came about rather peacefully (through peaceful negotiation I mean) in the end. What I mean here was that there was revolutionary violence in Libya up to the point where it succeeded.

Ireland never really had a vacuum of factions vying for power. Our independence wasn't brought about by violent intervention. In fact, Libya is different because it was a revolution whereas the Irish Free State didn't come about by revolution. And even then we weren't truly autonomous until after WW2.

But of course we will still have the usual posters trying to use Libya as a way to complain about the US, even though the US role in the overthrow of Gadaffi was negligible after they fired a few cruise missiles at the start.

To think that the other NATO members weren't acting at the behest of the USA is incredibly naive!

The USA is the de facto leader of NATO.

And what is your fascination with attempting to pigeonhole those with a different opinion to you as "anti western propaganda peddlers!!!!1"? Honestly its ridiculous. You mention it in every one of your posts and yet you call them obsessed? Is it so that you can fill in some sort of void in your posts caused by an information vacuum?


P.S How about everyone who is "a pro-Assad crony who loves North Korea and Cuba" actually just stop mentioning the USA. Its giving these guys ammunition to use. Notice how their arguments will implode because they have no slogans to throw as a result.


(I think I should stop posting in reply to plasmaguy from now on, he's an infraction trap)

Means Of Escape

In any case your argument that both countries are the same is laughably wrong.

Egypt has a powerful military that pulls the strings.

Libya has no powerful military at the moment, that's its main problem and is struggling to even maintain law and order.





What is laughable is your inability to see the similarities of both uprisings and their negative future impact both domestically and regionally.

cyberhog

The situation in Libya just goes from bad to worse.

Libyan militants bulldoze Sufi mosque in broad daylight


Police 'stood by' as Salafi extremist group razed Tripoli mosque in most blatant sectarian attack since Gaddafi's overthrow

Reuters in Tripoli
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 26 August 2012


Armed men have bulldozed a mosque containing Sufi Muslim graves in the centre of the capital, Tripoli, in broad daylight, in what appeared to be Libya's most blatant sectarian attack since the overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi.

...

The president of Libya's newly elected National Congress, Mohamed al-Magariaf, called the prime minister to an emergency meeting on Sunday.

"What is truly regrettable and suspicious is that some of those who took part in these destructive activities are supposed to be of the security forces and from the revolutionaries," Magariaf told reporters.


...

A Reuters reporter witnessed the bulldozer level the Sha'ab mosque as police surrounded the site and prevented people from approaching. They did not stop the demolition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/26/libya-militants-bulldoze-sufi-mosque?fb=optOut


Cut through all the self-congratulatory back slapping that NATO leaders like to indulge in about their missions and concentrate on what is actually happening on the ground and it becomes clear that the NATO leaders are actually a band of dishonest hammerheads who have taken a stable country with the highest standards of living in Africa and mired it in perpetual anarchy.

wingsof daun

Libya militias continue 2 week siege of Bani Walid. In acts of cowardice and horror they have been launching missiles into civilian areas living people with horrific injuries and deaths. Today, the local tribes resisting killing over 100 of the aggressors who are mainly from Misrata. Nato and co has left them advanced weaponry they often fire from a distance of 40km. Cowardly attacks from militias commonplace and everyday against people who refuse to sucuum to the new regime . Libya is a bloodbath.

Manic Moran

Nato and co has left them advanced weaponry they often fire from a distance of 40km.

Not many NATO weapons have a 40 km range. What are you suggesting NATO provided?

cyberhog

wingsof daun wrote: »

Libya militias continue 2 week siege of Bani Walid. In acts of cowardice and horror they have been launching missiles into civilian areas living people with horrific injuries and deaths. Today, the local tribes resisting killing over 100 of the aggressors who are mainly from Misrata. Nato and co has left them advanced weaponry they often fire from a distance of 40km. Cowardly attacks from militias commonplace and everyday against people who refuse to sucuum to the new regime . Libya is a bloodbath.

Remember how Obama was all concerned about civilians when Misurata was under siege?

the people of Libya are still suffering terrible horrors at Qaddafi’s hands each and every day. His rockets and shells rained down on defenseless civilians in Ajdabiya. The city of Misurata is enduring a medieval siege, as Qaddafi tries to strangle its population into submission. The evidence of disappearances and abuses grows daily.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/opinion/15iht-edlibya15.html?_r=0

Well civilians in Bani Walid are also suffering terrible horrors but where is Obama's concern for them? It seems to me that Obama and his cohorts stopped "caring" about civilians once Qaddafi was gone.

Jaafa

And now the US has blocked a resolution calling for a peaceful end to the fighting in bani walid. The hypocrisy is staggering.