Septic tank charges

PARKHEAD67

[QUOTE=ardmacha;76782121]There are many categories of people who seek to take without giving and do not accept their responsibilities as citizens.



You can make the argument that if my brakes fail on my car and run you over then you can sue me. But it makes sense to have an NCT test to ensure that I do not neglect my brakes. Likewise with septic tanks. They have the capacity to affect other people and some inspection to ensure that they are not neglected is appropriate. Smoking in domestic homes generally affects people in the home and might only be prohibited for the benefit of children.[/QUOTE]
There sure are.And they keep getting paid money by our inept government to be as lazy and feckless as they want.

Sponge Bob

Will you accept a Master's degree in environmental science and a couple of years working for the Geological Survey's groundwater unit? Plus regular contacts with colleagues still in the field.

Septic tanks = pollution sources. Arguments based on them not being will fail to move the debate at the official level, because they're based purely on personal ignorance.

cordially,
Scofflaw[/Quote]
Then you would know

1, some rivers worse affected than others and some of those more so by public schemes

2, that there is insufficient sludge treatment capacity in ireland overall...
..so where does it go..to the sea until the urban waste water directive in 2015

MadsL

If ever there was an argument for inspections..
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0128/1224310868104.html

THIS IS a true story. A deputy from the west related it to colleagues in the Members’ Bar this week. The TD told how he got a phone call from a constituent who has a small holding and was very worried about how the proposed new septic tank regulations might affect him. He went on to explain the type of tank he has been using for years for waste.

“I dug a big soakage hole with stones on the bottom of it, and I have a pipe going into the car and another one coming out of the back, up at the window. It’s well sealed and covered up.”

The deputy sought more information. “A car, you say?” “That’s right.” “What make of car is it?”

“A Ford Cortina. Do you think I might be in trouble?”

“Aah, I think you might be. . .”

MadsL

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Its no more an environmental issue than the "go safe" campaign is a safety issue.Both easy ways of squeezing even more money from the minons.Now, I hear their discussing a site tax where they tax you annualy on the value of your site.This country is getting more disgusting by the day

Yeah, you mean the way they keep introducing payments for things that other countries have been paying for years. Water charges, property taxes, sewage charges. Disgusting. Let's go back to pretending it's all free. :rolleyes:

Solidchrome

MadsL wrote: »

If ever there was an argument for inspections..
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0128/1224310868104.html

Cant dispute that for one minute. It came from an online news service and they ALWAYS tell the truth and are no way way politically motivated.

MadsL

Came from Miriam Lord actually....but take it for whatever you think it is worth. I don't doubt that there are probably septic tanks around the country made from old water tanks, and other assorted junk.

PARKHEAD67

MadsL wrote: »

Yeah, you mean the way they keep introducing payments for things that other countries have been paying for years. Water charges, property taxes, sewage charges. Disgusting. Let's go back to pretending it's all free. :rolleyes:

Ha ha.Nice one there.Let the PAYE man or woman pay for all the disgusting crap that Fianna Fail introduced.Why is it that only the PAYE worker is screwed over time and again?I'll tell you why-Coz we're an easy target.Let the "long-term unemployed"(and Im not including the poor misfortunes who have been recently let go) get a reduction in their payments.Make the wasters like the Dundons in Limerick work for their dole.Its all free to the wasters in Ireland.Isnt it?

MadsL

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Ha ha.Nice one there.Let the PAYE man or woman pay for all the disgusting crap that Fianna Fail introduced.Why is it that only the PAYE worker is screwed over time and again?I'll tell you why-Coz we're an easy target.Let the "long-term unemployed"(and Im not including the poor misfortunes who have been recently let go) get a reduction in their payments.Make the wasters like the Dundons in Limerick work for their dole.Its all free to the wasters in Ireland.Isnt it?

all the disgusting crap that Fianna Fail introduced

Like what exactly?

Rest is just a rant, tbh.

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Came from Miriam Lord actually....but take it for whatever you think it is worth. I don't doubt that there are probably septic tanks around the country made from old water tanks, and other assorted junk.

I know of at least one. An aunt and uncle of mine had a "system" that you could SEE was leaking (smelly-presume untreated) effluent as the ground in which it was buried was permanently soggy and stinking. I haven't been back there for 20 years but without a stick like an inspection regime, I don't see why they would have improved it.

I also know other folks with tanks that they would maintain and keep in good running order. It's really no different to the NCT.

Welease

murphaph wrote: »

I know of at least one. An aunt and uncle of mine had a "system" that you could SEE was leaking (smelly-presume untreated) effluent as the ground in which it was buried was permanently soggy and stinking. I haven't been back there for 20 years but without a stick like an inspection regime, I don't see why they would have improved it.

I also know other folks with tanks that they would maintain and keep in good running order. It's really no different to the NCT.

But thats the point.. it is different.. The NCT/DOE applies to the vast majority of vehicles.. this "environmental" inspection doesn't, it applies to only one type of system. Akin to only having to NCT Ford's.

What about main sewerage systems that are leaking due to subsidence, root invasion, age, damage etc. Why are they not being inspected? If there is an issue with pollution of water tables, then we should be inpecting all potential points of pollution.

sh1tstirrer

Some clown on the radio during the week gave an example of two pensioners living in the same house (married couple I presume). He said if they had no percolation and didn't have enough land to install it they would have to buy more adjoining land or else they could be forced from their home.

Welease

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Some clown on the radio during the week gave an example of two pensioners living in the same house (married couple I presume). He said if they had no percolation and didn't have enough land to install it they would have to buy more adjoining land or else they could be forced from their home.

Well in those cases where they are polluting the environment then something does need to be done... The system should never have been installed like that, but it cannot be left like that either..

murphaph

Welease wrote: »

But thats the point.. it is different.. The NCT/DOE applies to the vast majority of vehicles.. this "environmental" inspection doesn't, it applies to only one type of system. Akin to only having to NCT Ford's.

What about main sewerage systems that are leaking due to subsidence, root invasion, age, damage etc. Why are they not being inspected? If there is an issue with pollution of water tables, then we should be inpecting all potential points of pollution.

What exactly do we know about inspection regimes for municipal waste water treatment systems? I (perhaps in my naivety) assumed that inspections and maintenance of sewage pipes and systems do take place.

I fully agree with you that there should be a regimented system of inspection where there's a known pollution risk. I would however argue that the risks in rural Ireland from septic tank polluting the groundwater pose a more significant problem than an urban pipe leaking for one simple reason: the vast majority of urban water is not sourced from the ground beneath our feet, but from rivers upstream-there's a much higher risk of an urban area being poisoned by a rural septic tank than by their own pipes leaking beneath them.

In contrast, the density of septic tanks and wells in rural Ireland means a polluting tank poses the real risk of poisoning the owner and/or his neighbours as the drinking water comes directly out of the ground adjacent to the percolation area.

Welease

murphaph wrote: »

What exactly do we know about inspection regimes for municipal waste water treatment systems? I (perhaps in my naivety) assumed that inspections and maintenance of sewage pipes and systems do take place.

Waste can travel a long way before it reaches treatment plants.. I am over 40, and I assume you like me (nor anyone I know) has never had a visit from the council to check if my sewerage pipes are in satisfactory condition. I have personally done remedial work on two houses I owned, which had been leaking for years previous to me purchasing them.

I have read various articles about up to 50% water loss (primarily UK based) in delivery systems, it would be a safe assumption we could be losing as much in waste return systems.

murphaph wrote: »

I fully agree with you that there should be a regimented system of inspection where there's a known pollution risk. I would however argue that the risks in rural Ireland from septic tank polluting the groundwater pose a more significant problem than an urban pipe leaking for one simple reason: the vast majority of urban water is not sourced from the ground beneath our feet, but from rivers upstream-there's a much higher risk of an urban area being poisoned by a rural septic tank than by their own pipes leaking beneath them.

True, but if that were the basis of the need for inspection.. then wouldn't only those in areas where water is being collected pose a risk?.. If a city dweller poses a low risk due to distance, then a distant septic tank would also pose an equally low risk.

murphaph wrote: »

In contrast, the density of septic tanks and wells in rural Ireland means a polluting tank poses the real risk of poisoning the owner and/or his neighbours as the drinking water comes directly out of the ground adjacent to the percolation area.

Placement of wells and percolation areas should be addressed by regulations..Plenty of rural houses with septic tanks are served by mains water (we are).

As you clarified in response to my original post, this is an EU directive.. So on that basis I don't actually object.. but a lot of the responses here smack of it's fine once it doesn't effect me. The "it 's good for the environment" brigage dont seem so gung-ho to pay for inspection of their own mains pipes which can equally leak as much effluent into the environment.

murphaph

Welease wrote: »

Waste can travel a long way before it reaches treatment plants.. I am over 40, and I assume you like me (nor anyone I know) has never had a visit from the council to check if my sewerage pipes are in satisfactory condition. I have personally done remedial work on two houses I owned, which had been leaking for years previous to me purchasing them.

I don't know. I genuinely don't think the risk of passive systems like sewage pipes in urban areas is as likely to fail as an active system like a septic tank. I am not saying there should be no inspections but we should start where the risk is greater. Urban waste water should certainly be an issue however-in Germany you have install special drainage in your driveway if you want to wash your car there to ensure no detergents enter the waste water system. They are light years ahead here though in all matters environmental.

Welease wrote: »

I have read various articles about up to 50% water loss (primarily UK based) in delivery systems, it would be a safe assumption we could be losing as much in waste return systems.

Not so sure about that. Delivery systems are fairly highly pressurised. Waste water systems aren't AFAIK as the waste only has to flow downhill in 90% of cases. Water has to be delivered to multi storey buildings and this requires a head and the consequent pressure. A small hole in a water main will lose a lot more than the same sized hole in a sewage pipe. I'm not an expert here, so I stand to be corrected on that.

Welease wrote: »

True, but if that were the basis of the need for inspection.. then wouldn't only those in areas where water is being collected pose a risk?.. If a city dweller poses a low risk due to distance, then a distant septic tank would also pose an equally low risk.

Placement of wells and percolation areas should be addressed by regulations..Plenty of rural houses with septic tanks are served by mains water (we are).

A fair point. Perhaps the inspections should start in areas of highest tank to tank or tank to well density and/or with older tanks.

Welease wrote: »

As you clarified in response to my original post, this is an EU directive.. So on that basis I don't actually object.. but a lot of the responses here smack of it's fine once it doesn't effect me. The "it 's good for the environment" brigage dont seem so gung-ho to pay for inspection of their own mains pipes which can equally leak as much effluent into the environment.

Ireland has much growing up to do in relation to environmental matters, in all quarters-rural and urban

Solidchrome

Scofflaw wrote: »

Will you accept a Master's degree in environmental science and a couple of years working for the Geological Survey's groundwater unit? Plus regular contacts with colleagues still in the field.

Septic tanks = pollution sources. Arguments based on them not being will fail to move the debate at the official level, because they're based purely on personal ignorance.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Misleading.

Septic tanks are not a pollution source otherwise septic tanks wouldnt be allowed to be installed.

Failed septic tanks are a pollution source.

cordially,
solidchrome

Sponge Bob

Septic tanks are a pollution source but public sewage scheme users on polluting schemes are being bailed out by the taxpayer. Why will the government not admit that.

Those with septic tanks are ALSO paying for those upgrades.

Solidchrome

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Septic tanks are a pollution source..

A failed septic tank is a source of pollution but I cant accept that a new fully functioning tank is a source of pollution. If thats right then septic tanks should be banned and the government should roll out a national public sewage scheme, like they should of decades ago.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

.. public sewage scheme users on polluting schemes are being bailed out by the taxpayer. Why will the government not admit that.

Those with septic tanks are ALSO paying for those upgrades.

The government will address present public sewage schemes when it has sorted the shenanigans with septic tanks. First we will hear horror stories on state television about how the public are mistreating the scheme by flushing aligators/nuclear toxic waste etc down the toilets and how bad it is for the enviroment. Then there will be much debate about these evil people causing diseases and how to make them pay. Then Hogan will propose that everyone on the public scheme must pay, out of their own pockets, thousands of euros to repair the pipes under their properties because European legislation demands it.

Regards
solidchrome

Gareth2011

I didn't even know it was in effect yet. I registered for the household charge only to find out it might hit people with large gardens/land like myself. I'm fu*ked if im registering for this too for them to tell me I need to spend 5 grand upgrading it. They want it upgraded they can pay for it to be upgraded.

Cedrus

Solidchrome wrote: »

Septic tanks are not a pollution source otherwise septic tanks wouldnt be allowed to be installed.

They frequently are NOT allowed, hence why many people are forced to install mini treatment plants.

wiseguy

Cedrus wrote: »

They frequently are NOT allowed, hence why many people are forced to install mini treatment plants.

Which cost alot of money to install, run and maintain

Now can someone answer me do people who have treatment plants have to pay this silly charge?

bbsrs

wiseguy wrote: »

Cedrus wrote: »

They frequently are NOT allowed, hence why many people are forced to install mini treatment plants.

Which cost alot of money to install, run and maintain

Now can someone answer me do people who have treatment plants have to pay this silly charge?

Yes to ensure its installed and functioning properly.

I have a well on site too so I'm happy enough to have it inspected.

I think if every system was functioning properly people wouldn't mind the inspections for €50 euro , it's the fear of having to bring a system up to standard and not having the funds is what's worrying most people , if there was a grant in place to help those that can't afford it similar to the grant available for a well it would ease the fear and resistance to this inspection . But people who didn't fulfill the requirements of their planning permission with regards to sewage treatment would not be able to access the grant.

My system is 4 years old , was installed and designed by County Council approved people and is maintained yearly by the manufacturer . Cost 10k roughly in total . It's not just the price of the bio cycle treatment system , it's the percolation area too which can cost more than the bio cycle system itself depending on the percolation bed you need .

wiseguy

bbsrs wrote: »

Yes to ensure its installed and functioning properly.

But one already has to pay ~170 euro a year inspection charge to ensure that treatment plant is working properly.

Thats like doing an DOE/MOT on a van/car twice (and paying for it twice)

n97 mini

Solidchrome wrote: »

Septic tanks are not a pollution source otherwise septic tanks wouldnt be allowed to be installed.

By design septic tanks over flow into the percolation area and even a perfectly functioning tank can be polluting (depends on usage). They are permitted as there is no better alternatives.

Solidchrome wrote: »

If thats right then septic tanks should be banned and the government should roll out a national public sewage scheme, like they should of decades ago.

The local authorities should get real about one-offs, like in NI and England.

wiseguy

n97 mini wrote: »

By design septic tanks over flow into the percolation area and even a perfectly functioning tank can be polluting (depends on usage). They are permitted as there is no better alternatives.

Yes there ****ing is, its called a treatment plant, many councils already require them, and the water coming out the other end of these is cleaner than the **** (quite literately) that still goes largely untreated in most town and cities in this country

n97 mini wrote: »

The local authorities should get real about one-offs, like in NI and England.

Your telegraph links points to and has a picture of a housing estate...
Maybe the state should bulldoze all one off homes in the countryside and forcibly move everyone to a ghetto in Dublin, there you go enviro-fascism rears its ugly head again.

n97 mini

wiseguy wrote: »

Your telegraph links points to and has a picture of a housing estate...

I should have relised you'd only look at the pictures. Sorry, but you walked into that one. Here's some text from it:

It was Éamon de Valera’s dotty vision, in 1943, that Ireland would have a countryside “bright with cosy homesteads”. But now it is littered with them. In Kerry, “one-off houses” account for more than half of the county’s total housing stock and average out at one unit per kilometre of public road. That’s an awful lot of buildings strewn around the landscape of a county so heavily dependent on tourism...
“Eighty per cent of the visitors to Co Kerry come here for the quality of the landscape and the unspoilt scenery,” senior Kerry planner Paul Stack said recently. “I drove around areas such as the Cotswolds and to see the tourism product they have in comparison to what we have done to ours is embarrassing and upsetting.”

wiseguy wrote: »

Maybe the state should bulldoze all one off homes in the countryside and forcibly move everyone to a ghetto in Dublin, there you go enviro-fascism rears its ugly head again.

No need to move to Dublin, just to somewhere that has all the services in place already (e.g. hamlet, village, town)

wiseguy

n97 mini wrote: »

No need to move to Dublin, just to somewhere that has all the services in place already (e.g. hamlet, village, town)

Or how about using something called a waste treatment plant :rolleyes:

Instead of resorting to Fascist methodology and evicting people against their will out of their homes.

bbsrs

wiseguy wrote: »

bbsrs wrote: »

Yes to ensure its installed and functioning properly.

But one already has to pay ~170 euro a year inspection charge to ensure that treatment plant is working properly.

Thats like doing an DOE/MOT on a van/car twice (and paying for it twice)

Not really it like getting a mechanic to service your car and give it the once over so you can pass the NCT/DOE/MOT.

Solidchrome

n97 mini wrote: »

By design septic tanks over flow into the percolation area and even a perfectly functioning tank can be polluting (depends on usage). They are permitted as there is no better alternatives.

The local authorities should get real about one-offs, like in NI and England.

Interesting. This and other posts Ive seen by you make me believe you are either anti-rural and/or employed by the government. Am I right?

Regards
solidchrome

wiseguy

bbsrs wrote: »

Not really it like getting a mechanic to service your car and give it the once over so you can pass the NCT/DOE/MOT.

Many people already dont bother servicing their car and wait for the NCT to tell them whats wrong.
the reasoning goes something like this "If you pass the NCT then you saved money by not doing checkup before the test, if you fail then not so bad either."


This brain-dead idea will cause more waste not less.


A solution would be to upgrade any septic tanks to treatment systems (with grants available as carrot) and require the household owner to show that the system is being inspected (as is already the case in some locations) as the stick.
Sort of what is being done with home insulation scheme, where we have grants (carrot) and BER certs and requirement to use them (stick)


Or you could resort to eco-fascist methods as is being promoted by our friend few posts up and evict people out of their homes into concentration camps.