How to tackle the drink problem

sensibleken

heybaby wrote: »

Tackling the problem of alcohol needs to be multi-faceted

1. massively increase the price of drink in pubs/ restaurants etc like they did successfully in sweden
2. reduce the number of outlets where you can purchase alcohol
3. reduce the opening hours of off-licenses like scandinavian countries
4. reduce the opening hours of pubs / nightclubs
5. make pubs liable for supplying drink to people already hammered like they do in Australia
6. the gardai need to have a zero tolerance approach to people drinking in the street and or drunk in public places
7. at governmental level there needs to be a complete ban on all drink related sponsorship, no more 'Heineken' cup rugby etc, surely alternative sponsors can be found
8. there needs to be a concerted effort to divorce the perception of the association of a pint of the black stuff with a romantic notion of oul ireland, tv pictures of successive american presidents drinking a pint of whatever in a pub somewhere in ireland simply re-inforce the stereotype that ireland is most associated with alcohol.
9. before im accused of being a killjoy, you need to remind yourslef that gargle costs the economy billions of euro in productivity and others costs every year. With the death of the celtic tiger now is the time for a bit of reflection on the excesses we all indulged in and an examination of irish society's relationship with alcohol. They dont call it the demon drink for no reason.

oh no youre not a killjoy. you sound like great craic.

PARTY! within acceptable parametres and timeframes.....whooooo

quietriot

Tazz T wrote: »

But I disagree with your 'our drinking culture starts at home'. Our drinking culture comes from drink being demonised in Irish society mostly as a result of the Catholic church - confirmation and all that. As a result of that and parents disallowing alcohol consumption, it's the first things teenagers do to rebel when they become teenagers.

Interesting point although I can't help but feel that the amount of adults getting drunk around children, which happens a frightening amount here and is totally inappropriate, compounds the belief that alcohol is something worth pursuing amongst our kids.

Captain_Generic wrote: »

If the availability of hash and weed is anything to go by, very easily

Hash and weed is expensive (a quarter ounce of hash is equal to a slate of beers, weed is significantly more for anything of decent quality and reasonable quantity) and possession of it carries no mandatory sentence. Impose mandatory sentences on those found without an alcohol license and we'll see how many people want to get involved with it.

I know loads of people who've went to court over hash possession and came out scot-free. It's a reasonable expectation that nothing will happen you over it.

Bit of a juvenile detention for kids found with alcohol, some jail time for those they report for buying it for them, etc. We'll soon see an end to all the "f*cking about" with alcohol that we see here every day.

alwayswright wrote: »

Totally understand where you're coming from but this would make people who are seriously ill from alcohol avoid going to hospital in a time of need. Scaring people away from A&E is not the way to go

If they're "seriously ill" from alcohol, it generally won't be their decision to go to hospital. It'll be one of their unfortunate friends or a staff member of wherever they happen to be and those people will prioritize the drunks health over their freedom to access alcohol.

Or you could weight it, if you so wish. Have an A&E trip recorded as a half record, a garda incident being a full record, and punish appropriately.

Pherekydes wrote: »

People learn by example. Young people learn to binge-drink from their peers and their parents. Parents who drink responsibly at home, showing their children the responsible use of alcohol would end up in prison under your system.

Not so, you don't have to have the child actively involved to demonstrate how to behave yourself with alcohol.

We've a culture where it seems to be fine for parents to go to things like funerals, christenings, weddings etc. with their children and get absolutely plastered in front of them.

If you wanted, you could lower the age limit with that system to include 16 year olds being able to drink wine with their parents, as is done in France. Nothing more though, they're still very young, impressionable kids. They don't need the freedom to sit around with their parents and drink cans.

The purchasing of alcohol (in supermarkets) is not the problem. They sell alcohol in French supermarkets, but they don't have a binge-drinking culture the way we and the British have.

Absolutely and I never implied it was, the freedom of alcohol to those who can't control themselves with it and the underage is the problem, and this would be solved with an alcohol license system.

sensibleken wrote: »

so long tourist industry!

What a stupid, reactionary comment. Use your head, something could easily be implemented to make alcohol available to tourists with some sort of temporary license granted to conviction-free, over the age limit tourists as they're coming into the country and taken back when they're leaving.

Just as you fill in a form when you're going to the USA and hand it back on your way back.

_ __ _

Ireland does not have a drink problem. It does not have a tobacco problem, an obesity problem or any other sort of "public health" problem.

If people as free individuals have their own problems then we should provide help if they ask for it, otherwise their lifestyle choice is none of our concern.

Anyone who sincerely believes in the idea of "public health" is just outing themself as an elitist snob who enjoys the idea of people they don't identify with being subjugated under the guise of altruism. The government serves the people, not the other way around.

yoyo

To see the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in the cinema, buy a small (smallest mesure) diet coke and a bag of m&ms cost me €17 last Saterday. This is very expensive for less than 3 hours "entertainment".
Maybe the government need to realise if the other social activities din't cost so f*cking much people may do other things bar drink. Now I know the government can't do anything about the rip off cinema prices but still it puts things into perspective

Nick

quietriot

sensibleken wrote: »

oh no youre not a killjoy. you sound like great craic.

PARTY! within acceptable parametres and timeframes.....whooooo

Ken, you come across as the type who forces shots and more drink on people when they're out in the name of "craic" and belittles them if they won't participate.

You can be as sarcastic as you like however with such an attitude you're nothing but part of the problem. Cop yourself on.

mathepac

There's a lot of sense in what you say -

heybaby wrote: »

...
(a) make pubs liable for supplying drink to people already hammered like they do in Australia

(b) the gardai need to have a zero tolerance approach to people drinking in the street and or drunk in public places

(a)In Ireland it is illegal to sell alcohol to someone who is intoxicated - enforce the existing law

(b)enforce existing laws and bye-laws

Arnold Layne

I don't care what we do but we must protect the vitners' livelihood at all cost :rolleyes:, i.e. raise the price of alcohol, shut down off-licences.

phil1nj

alwayswright wrote: »

Totally understand where you're coming from but this would make people who are seriously ill from alcohol avoid going to hospital in a time of need. Scaring people away from A&E is not the way to go

But this is where personal responsibility comes in to play. If you decided to get absolutley ****faced and proceed to start a fight/fall over/jump through a window/pretend to be spider-man and you end up injurying yourself and need to go to A&E then you as an individual need to face up to the fact that your actions have consequences and as such should incur a penalty. The government like to bang on about the annual cost of alcholol abuse in this country, well turn that around and make those who can't handle their drink pay for the f*cking fallout from their antics.

My own take on this is twofold, if you are presented to A&E with a self inflicted alcholol injury you get hit with the total cost of that visit, from the ambulance ride to the medical costs adn any damage that you wroght whilst in your drunken stupor. How you pay it is up to yourself but everyone in this contry has some form of income so it shouldn't be too hard to work something out. Secondly, the boundaries around the sale of alcohol need to be enforced. The supermarkets and off-licenses (are supposedto )practice this by asking for ID of anyone who looks underage but if someone is caught with drink and they are underage then penalties need to be applied to all parties who can be proven to be involved in the transaction (buyer, user, seller) as applicable.

Punishing everyone for enjoying a drink is narrow minded and down right idiotic therefore it's ideal government policy.

quietriot

_ __ _ wrote: »

Ireland does not have a drink problem.

Oh, but we do. The A&E and Gardai throughout the country will agree with this.

It does not have a tobacco problem

Oh, but we do and the sooner it's stomped out, the better for everyone.

an obesity problem

Not compared to some countries but obesity and the acceptance of it is on the rise.

If people as free individuals have their own problems then we should provide help if they ask for it, otherwise their lifestyle choice is none of our concern.

We're the ones paying for these problems. The public health system is facing a huge burden due to the lifestyle choices of these people that could easily be dealt with and reduce the bill.

Anyone who sincerely believes in the idea of "public health" is just outing themself as an elitist snob.

Rabble, rabble, rabble.

phil1nj

heybaby wrote: »

Tackling the problem of alcohol needs to be multi-faceted

1. massively increase the price of drink in pubs/ restaurants etc like they did successfully in sweden
2. reduce the number of outlets where you can purchase alcohol
3. reduce the opening hours of off-licenses like scandinavian countries
4. reduce the opening hours of pubs / nightclubs
5. make pubs liable for supplying drink to people already hammered like they do in Australia
6. the gardai need to have a zero tolerance approach to people drinking in the street and or drunk in public places
7. at governmental level there needs to be a complete ban on all drink related sponsorship, no more 'Heineken' cup rugby etc, surely alternative sponsors can be found
8. there needs to be a concerted effort to divorce the perception of the association of a pint of the black stuff with a romantic notion of oul ireland, tv pictures of successive american presidents drinking a pint of whatever in a pub somewhere in ireland simply re-inforce the stereotype that ireland is most associated with alcohol.
9. before im accused of being a killjoy, you need to remind yourslef that gargle costs the economy billions of euro in productivity and others costs every year. With the death of the celtic tiger now is the time for a bit of reflection on the excesses we all indulged in and an examination of irish society's relationship with alcohol. They dont call it the demon drink for no reason.

Whilst there is some merit in some of the items above you forget that the drinks industry here generates a lot of revenue for the government/country. The above suggestions also (unfairly) target those who enjoy a tipple or two and don't wreck the gaff but don't want to see the price if a drink go through the feckin' roof either.

old hippy

Overheal wrote: »

Why should the state place so much social responsibility on everyone, just to satisfy the very small percentage of people who have no personal responsibility?

Alcolholism is an illness, it's not all down to personal responsibility.

Stiffler2

I reckon killing all of muppets in governemnt should resolve this issue ?

sensibleken

quietriot wrote: »

What a stupid, reactionary comment. Use your head, something could easily be implemented to make alcohol available to tourists with some sort of temporary license granted to conviction-free, over the age limit tourists as they're coming into the country and taken back when they're leaving.

Just as you fill in a form when you're going to the USA and hand it back on your way back.

Stupid aye? so how would you adminsister this clunky, overly complicated and expensive way of issueing drinking permits to tourists.

Do you really think people are going to be impressed by arriving at a country and having their lives trawled through so they can get a glass of guinness.

saa

D1stant wrote: »

Would a quota system work?

Everyone over 18 is issued with a DrinkLink card to buy X units per month. Only the card holder would be served. When you have used up your credit you can go to a pub and pay through the nose until next months quota comes

I would buy a bottle of rum once in a while, it drink it in moderation someone else may drink it pretty quickly but if I could buy smaller bottles without paying a premium opposed to just upping the price on the big bottle, I think that would be a good idea to sell smaller bottles of spirits for [usually] younger adults who buy a bottle or naggin of spirits and basically down it with a bike of mixer before going out and then drink more.

This card thing I see how something along that line of thinking might just
curb a whole lot of people regularly binge drinking but there is a problem,
What if someone wanted to buy alcohol for a party or they have a drink problem?

The same people who supply imported or counterfeit cigs and other things will go into the business of supplying drink to supply people who once in a while will be buying a large amount of alcohol of those who purchase a lot of alcohol on a daily basis as I doubt they would be allowed more than 14/21 units a week so where will people who have an issue with drinking go to.

Tazz T

heybaby wrote: »

Tackling the problem of alcohol needs to be multi-faceted

1. massively increase the price of drink in pubs/ restaurants etc like they did successfully in sweden
2. reduce the number of outlets where you can purchase alcohol
3. reduce the opening hours of off-licenses like scandinavian countries
4. reduce the opening hours of pubs / nightclubs
5. make pubs liable for supplying drink to people already hammered like they do in Australia
6. the gardai need to have a zero tolerance approach to people drinking in the street and or drunk in public places
7. at governmental level there needs to be a complete ban on all drink related sponsorship, no more 'Heineken' cup rugby etc, surely alternative sponsors can be found
8. there needs to be a concerted effort to divorce the perception of the association of a pint of the black stuff with a romantic notion of oul ireland, tv pictures of successive american presidents drinking a pint of whatever in a pub somewhere in ireland simply re-inforce the stereotype that ireland is most associated with alcohol.
9. before im accused of being a killjoy, you need to remind yourslef that gargle costs the economy billions of euro in productivity and others costs every year. With the death of the celtic tiger now is the time for a bit of reflection on the excesses we all indulged in and an examination of irish society's relationship with alcohol. They dont call it the demon drink for no reason.

You do realise that all these measures have made no difference to the amount people drink in Scandinavia. All it did was create a huge illegal bootlegging operation. Tax, duty and VAT revenue fell hugely due to these measures, as did employment in the drinks trade and associated industries. Tax revenue from alcohol in Finland no longer meets the health bill due to alcohol. In Ireland, tax and duty revenue far exceeds the cost of alcohol related health services.

Don't ask me to find the evidence for this. Google it. I posted it on another thread like this.

sensibleken

quietriot wrote: »

Ken, you come across as the type who forces shots and more drink on people when they're out in the name of "craic" and belittles them if they won't participate.

You can be as sarcastic as you like however with such an attitude you're nothing but part of the problem. Cop yourself on.

Do I yeah? well you couldnt be further from the truth. What I am is someone who doesnt want to control how people choose to enjoy themselves. Someone who doesnt want to punish everyone because of a few eejits. And someone who think that the answer to every problem is ban ban ban.
Everytime the drink hours have been cut its caused more problems than its solved with people hurrying their drinks and spilling out on the street at the same time. so please im copped on fairly well thank you

af_thefragile

sensibleken wrote: »

Do I yeah? well you couldnt be further from the truth. What I am is someone who doesnt want to control how people choose to enjoy themselves. Someone who doesnt want to punish everyone because of a few eejits. And someone who think that the answer to every problem is ban ban ban.
Everytime the drink hours have been cut its caused more problems than its solved with people hurrying their drinks and spilling out on the street at the same time. so please im copped on fairly well thank you

Do you also believe that when someone ends up in a hospital due to drinks related problem them it should be the said person and not the hse who pays for the hospital costs?

Feisar

yoyo wrote: »

To see the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in the cinema, buy a small (smallest mesure) diet coke and a bag of m&ms cost me €17 last Saterday. This is very expensive for less than 3 hours "entertainment".
Maybe the government need to realise if the other social activities din't cost so f*cking much people may do other things bar drink. Now I know the government can't do anything about the rip off cinema prices but still it puts things into perspective

Nick

If I was in the pub for 3 hours though I'd have clocked up a bigger bill.

3 hours at two pints an hour => 6 pints

6x€4.50= €27

And that wouldn't be hard going. added to that would be a taxi fair home, I'd have brought the car if it was the cinema. So €37 all in for my three hours in the pub.

Why is "the drink" a curse? I've posted about this before, it's just an inanimate substance. People drink more than they can handle or alcohol doesn't suit them and they cause a problem for society.

I also agree with Mr/Mrs underscores above. "Ireland" doesn't have a drinking problem. Some people do, but it's their problem not ours as a whole.

mathepac

yoyo wrote: »

To see the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in the cinema, buy a small (smallest mesure) diet coke and a bag of m&ms cost me €17 last Saterday. This is very expensive for less than 3 hours "entertainment".
Maybe the government need to realise if the other social activities din't cost so f*cking much people may do other things bar drink. Now I know the government can't do anything about the rip off cinema prices but still it puts things into perspective

Nick

One of the strangest off-topic random posts in a while and I don't think that adding thinly disguised profanity adds any weight to your argument

We don't have a drink problem because of the price of cinema tickets and refreshments we have a drink problem because of the vested interests at play in the government at all levels who through greed refuse to take any meaningful action

If the government is serious about the massive cost in human and other terms being paid for the enormous alcohol problem in Ireland, then the first thing it should do is shut down the lobby-group for the alcohol industry in the Senate, being paid for by the tax-payer.

quietriot

sensibleken wrote: »

Do I yeah? well you couldnt be further from the truth. What I am is someone who doesnt want to control how people choose to enjoy themselves. Someone who doesnt want to punish everyone because of a few eejits. And someone who think that the answer to every problem is ban ban ban.
Everytime the drink hours have been cut its caused more problems than its solved with people hurrying their drinks and spilling out on the street at the same time. so please im copped on fairly well thank you

Ok well I'm someone who goes to work and pays my taxes, and I don't want those taxes being spent on morons who enjoy themselves to excess and use our hospital and garda resources.

The system I suggested doesn't punish everyone, it punishes the eejits and those who aid those eejits. It allows everyone to carry on as they were, except weed out the idiots that go overboard and prevent them from being able to do so again.

The alternative is relatively simple though, cut the funding of health care to those with alcohol related incidents and charge people for the use of the Gardai's time if it's in relation to them causing trouble while drunk. Would that be fair? I think it would because I think it's f*cking outrageous that as I sit and work, I'm paying for the treatment of knackers who get drunk and start fights with eachother and more and the cost of the resources being used to deal with them.

sensibleken

af_thefragile wrote: »

Do you also believe that when someone ends up in a hospital due to drinks related problem them it should be the said person and not the hse who pays for the hospital costs?

I don't see what that is to do with anything.

Deus Ex Machina

I'm an alco and there ain't any legislation that they can bring in that can stop me from buying a bottle of whiskey to guzzle when I feel the desire to do so (which is frequently might I add). I happen to have the means to pay whatever they want to charge but even if I didn't I'd still find a way to get it, with or without upholding the social contract and I'd imagine others in my position are similar. Slap any taxes you want on it, I can't really stop you, but the human condition, such as it is, sends many searching for the Redbreast 12 year old (or the special brew, a decision concerning both taste and expedience) and will continue to do so regardless of more, parden the pun, sober concerns like taxation and humouring the electorate. So it goes, as Mr Vonnegut said. They can adjust for the changes which emerge from such overregulation, a rise in crime for one, but worse, a further erosion of autonomy at the hands of those who profess to know better. The latter's effect is more odious and rarely is it linked to its correlating cause, so it is a flaw which goes unchecked almost every time it occurs.

I'm roaring drunk contemporaneously, so apologies for my nonsense. But don't hesitate in grabbing your genitalia, it's a sweety, a genuine ill sweety!

phil1nj

old hippy wrote: »

Alcolholism is an illness, it's not all down to personal responsibility.

Fair enough, but not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic just as not everyone who drives is a boy/girl racer. Those who can't (or won't) control themselves need to be looked at and dealt with separately from those who are quiet happy to play nice and enjoy a few drinks. Tarring everyone with the same brush just leads to hostility and frustration on both sides.

Tazz T

Feisar makes a good point - Ireland doesn't have a drink problem - it has a people problem. Guns don't kill, people do. Same with alcohol.

sensibleken

quietriot wrote: »

Ok well I'm someone who goes to work and pays my taxes, and I don't want those taxes being spent on morons who enjoy themselves to excess and use our hospital and garda resources.

The system I suggested doesn't punish everyone, it punishes the eejits and those who aid those eejits. It allows everyone to carry on as they were, except weed out the idiots that go overboard and prevent them from being able to do so again.

The alternative is relatively simple though, cut the funding of health care to those with alcohol related incidents and charge people for the use of the Gardai's time if it's in relation to them causing trouble while drunk. Would that be fair? I think it would because I think it's f*cking outrageous that as I sit and work, I'm paying for the treatment of knackers who get drunk and start fights with eachother and more and the cost of the resources being used to deal with them.

Firstly it does punish everyone. It me, as someone who just wants to go have a pint with my dad have to apply for a permit to do so. Its degrading, expensive and nonsense.


If you dont want to pay for for the treatment of drunk related incidents then thats unfortunate. I dont want to pay for people who get themselves hurt playing football because i dont like football. but hey, different strokes. you are trying to crack a nut by dropping a planet on it.

quietriot

af_thefragile wrote: »

Do you also believe that when someone ends up in a hospital due to drinks related problem them it should be the said person and not the hse who pays for the hospital costs?

I don't personally however it's the system we have. The implementation I outlined would still let people get treated for alcohol related incidents, however it would prevent them from doing so again and might change their mind as to how they behave themselves when the "record" is removed from their license.

The alternative is just removing funding for alcohol related incidents which would be extremely fair.

Feisar wrote: »

3 hours at two pints an hour => 6 pints

And that wouldn't be hard going.

Yikes!

I also agree with Mr/Mrs underscores above. "Ireland" doesn't have a drinking problem. Some people do, but it's their problem not ours as a whole.

Where does the rest of the world get the perception that we're drunks so?

With regards to the cinema go-er who paid €17 for a ticket with food and drink, yeah that's expensive but if you're in any way regular to the cinema you might consider just buying one of the unlimited cards for Cineworld in the City Center, €19 for as many films as you like per month. Fair daycent!

af_thefragile

sensibleken wrote: »

I don't see what that is to do with anything.

If the individual is completely responsible for their actions then the individual needs to be responsible of their reprecurssions too.

The hse couls save millions if people stopped getting drunk or ending up with alcohol related illnesses.

Also its not just health problems but also social problems where families are suffering because their husbands or fathers etc are alcoholics. And then the hse spends more money and resiurces by sending public health nurses, social workers etc.

yoyo

Feisar wrote: »

If I was in the pub for 3 hours though I'd have clocked up a bigger bill.

3 hours at two pints an hour => 6 pints

6x€4.50= €27

And that wouldn't be hard going. added to that would be a taxi fair home, I'd have brought the car if it was the cinema. So €37 all in for my three hours in the pub.

Why is "the drink" a curse? I've posted about this before, it's just an inanimate substance. People drink more than they can handle or alcohol doesn't suit them and they cause a problem for society.

I also agree with Mr/Mrs underscores above. "Ireland" doesn't have a drinking problem. Some people do, but it's their problem not ours as a whole.

It would take me around 45-50 mins per pint usually as I don't knock them back, so yes the cinema would cost me alot more for 3 hours entertainment than 3 pints in a pub. I don't drink in pubs anyways, so €17 would do me a few days of cans at home.

One of the strangest off-topic random posts in a while and I don't think that adding thinly disguised profanity adds any weight to your argument

We don't have a drink problem because of the price of cinema tickets and refreshments we have a drink problem because of the vested interests at play in the government at all levels who through greed refuse to take any meaningful action

If the government is serious about the massive cost in human and other terms being paid for the enormous alcohol problem in Ireland, then the first thing it should do is shut down the lobby-group for the alcohol industry in the Senate, being paid for by the tax-payer.

I don't see how it is off topic, I was just shocked at how expensive an Saterday night out to the cinema cost, and I do think €17 is quite a rip off. People tend to want do something at the weekend as a break from work or whatever. So they can go to the cinema, restaurants, pubs, clubs, etc. I was just making a point that if alternatives were cheaper people may be more keen on going to the cinema over pub for example. Sorry if the censored language offended you, but I was quite shocked at the cinema cost not having gone for a while (and the price has gone up a fair bit since the last time I was at the cinema, prob near 2 years ago!)

Nick

RichieC

WE DO NOT WANT TO INCREASE THE ALCOHOL BLACK MARKET IN IRELAND. Crooks in this country already have their way with the drug trade.

sensibleken

af_thefragile wrote: »

If the individual is completely responsible for their actions then the individual needs to be responsible of their reprecurssions too.

The hse couls save millions if people stopped getting drunk or ending up with alcohol related illnesses.

Also its not just health problems but also social problems where families are suffering because their husbands or fathers etc are alcoholics. And then the hse spends more money and resiurces by sending public health nurses, social workers etc.

People fall off ladders because theyve chosen to climb them, people crash cars because theyve chosen to drive them.

people have a few drinks a trip they should pay for it but if they were sober they shouldnt? how much will i have had to drink that it costs me treatment if someone else, maybe a sober person, hits me