Letting potential buyer shoot firearm?

Gonzor

Where do I stand legally in allowing someone shoot my rifle when they arent licenced/dont have a competency course/arent insured etc..?

kildare.17hmr

I wouldnt buy a second hand gun without a test drive. Have you never brought someone shooting before? I would let them and if they were not firmilliar with firearms id give them a runthrough of how to handle it ect and keep a good eye on them

tac foley

Gonzor wrote: »

Where do I stand legally in allowing someone shoot my rifle when they arent licenced/dont have a competency course/arent insured etc..?

It is the opinion of an acquaintance of mine that you would be standing up to the waist in a world of illegality - and doo-doo, as well.

Pretend for a moment that you have to explain your actions to a member of the AGS who is standing beside you while hand over your gun to a person who does not have any kind of gun license, insurance, let alone competency course, handle your firearm that cost you so much in time and energy and money to obtain legally, and means so much to you that you are now happily handing it over to somebody who has done none of those things, so that he can shoot it.

Is that person not now illegally in possession of a firearm to which he has no entitlement? What is your position in law, having of your own free will, handed over a live-firing firearm to a non-entitled person?

What if something, GF, goes wrong?

Of course, I might be exaggerating things a little - so please feel free to try it and tell us what happened next.

I'm just as interested to find out as the next man, so that I can pass on your experience to others and thereby perhaps save them a load of trouble.

tac

Gonzor

tac foley wrote: »

Is that person not now illegally in possession of a firearm to which he has no entitlement? What is your position in law, having of your own free will, handed over a live-firing firearm to a non-entitled person?

Thats the just off it alright Tac, but at the same time, it would look awful suspicious if I turn round and tell him he cant shoot it..... it feels like Im caught in the middle.

Ive got stopped about 3 times in the past month. Seems the AGS are cracking down hard on shooters around here, knowing my luck if I take him for a shot we'll get stopped as soon as the guy pulls the trigger :rolleyes:

iTom

If was me I would off down the fields well away from anyone show him what you would do like loading,safety,and tell always point a weapon away from anyone. Give him one or two shots in a safe area and see what he thinks then.

At the end of the day you are trying to sell the gun.

Cass

Gonzor wrote: »

Where do I stand legally in allowing someone shoot my rifle when they arent licenced/dont have a competency course/arent insured etc..?

Legally!

They cannot possess, use, fire the firearm without being in possession of a valid traning cert/license. If they were caught, as said above, they would be done for possession of an unlicensed firearm. Your being there LEGALLY would stand for nothing as he would be holding the gun not you.

You could then face charges for giving the firearm to an unlicensed person.

LEGALLY of course.

iTom wrote: »

If was me I would off down the fields well away from anyone show him what you would do like loading,safety,and tell always point a weapon away from anyone. Give him one or two shots in a safe area and see what he thinks then.

Firstly i would tell him its a firearm not a weapon.
Secondly he can do this at your suggestion, but LEGALLY he is responsible if anything happens.

At the end of the day you are trying to sell the gun.

Yeah, but no loose it if caught.


Your best bet, and i'll confirm this asap, is to try and meet at a range, and allow him to fire the rifle under supervision in a controlled environment. Might be the best and most legally sound method.

However in regards to my advice, and any other advice offered remember this. You are responsible for the gun. If you willingly hand it over to a person, whether you did or did not know they had no license/insurance/competence course is irrelevant. You will be the one facing the charge(s).

Farmlife

The last thing i would be doing is walking into the middle of a field with a lad i just met to buy my firearm, then hand it to him loaded, maybe thats just over paranoid me,

I bought a gun there off a lad that put it up in the "Shooting for Sale" thread, met him at my target club, fired it in the presence of the RFD there, fell in love with it, bought it there and then, everyone was happy... except a few pigeons last sunday, but we wont go into that now

iTom

tac foley wrote: »

At the risk of upsetting people by talking about something that happens outside the borders of the RoI, in UK there are guest days on club ranges, where friends/relatives of authorised and fullly-paid-up club members can be introduced to firearms in a safe-to-use environment, and where their mentor is totally responsible for them and their actions whilst on the firing point.

The law is quite clear on this matter - the visitor becomes a day-member of the club, has to sign a document to that effect, pays an insurance fee and wears a visitor's badge at all times. In return, they are permitted to shoot any and all fireams there that day, at the invitation of the owner, of course, with the exception of any long-barrelled revolvers or pistols that might be there.

Ezridax suggests that there is a similar arrangement in RoI, on the authorised ranges there, and I recommend that rather than risk getting yourself in the sh&te, and bringing the rest of us shooters into disrepute, that this is the path you take. Right now things are way up in the air regarding shooting sports, and the last thing we need is an incident or occasion that shows Joe Public just 'how irresponsible shooters really are'.

Ok I have been WRONG with my advice but it was something I had done when buying guns before,but then again I had allot of experience with weapons over the years.
Scrap my comment and take the good advice and everyone will be safer.

Sparks

Gonzor wrote: »

Where do I stand legally in allowing someone shoot my rifle when they arent licenced/dont have a competency course/arent insured etc..?

Completely illegal unless you're on an authorised range. Which would also mean your insurance was null and void should it lead to an accident.
Get thee hence to a range and shoot away under Section 2(4)(d) -- so long as the range's own rules don't preclude this.

Cass

iTom wrote: »

......,but then again I had allot of experience with weapons over the years.

It doesn't matter how much experience you have with FIREARMS. You do it and it's still illegal.

gizmo555

rgugliel wrote: »

The last thing i would be doing is walking into the middle of a field with a lad i just met to buy my firearm, then hand it to him loaded, maybe thats just over paranoid me

Not paranoid at all, remember Malcolm McArthur and his unfortunate victim, Dónal Dunne . . .

Sparks

gizmo555 wrote: »

Not paranoid at all, remember Malcolm McArthur and his unfortunate victim, Dónal Dunne . . .

Which is why we've always recommended selling firearms via RFDs, ever since the for sale/wanted forum here opened.

iTom

Ezridax wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much experience you have with FIREARMS. You do it and it's still illegal.

Point Taken and I agree 100%.
I apologies for my STUPID comment.

Spunk84

Legally you are the owner and responsible if something goes wrong. Common sense lads, we can all make judgements on individual's which we meet in the first 5-10 mins of talking with them. If your uncomfortable ask a friend to be present when u meet a buyer or meet them away from ur residence until u see who they are.
As for boards and buying firearms,if something did arise from a meeting an individual who turned out to be not what u thought, just walk away. The good thing about boards or any forum is that u can look at people's posts and threads to sorta judge their character. Personally I wouldn't sell a firearm to someone who hasnt had over a hundred posts in the hunting or shooting forum or just registered in the last few months, that's just me thou.

What would be the legalitys of say u bringing a potential buyer out to the field to test a firearm out and them turning on u or running away with it? Would u be in trouble, well if ur not picking up the Daisy's that is

Gonzor

Spunk84 wrote: »

What would be the legalitys of say u bringing a potential buyer out to the field to test a firearm out and them turning on u or running away with it? Would u be in trouble, well if ur not picking up the Daisy's that is

I can see what you saying. But the guy buying it is a friend of a friend so not too worried about that scenario

The range is a great idea and all, but its a 2 hour drive to the nearest centerfire range. And even if we did drive all the way down neither of us are members.

I asked the clay club can they do anything for me and they said no. The hunting club said the guy cant even come into the field with me (tresspassing) nevermind shoot the rifle. And if I do take him into one of their fields and they hear about it then I lose my membership :eek:

It seems like I have no option but only to break the law. Like Kildare said at the start. You wouldnt buy a second hand gun (at 2 grand) without a few shots to make sure its all in order.

Legally speaking, how does the government expect us to sell firearms- what procedure do they encourage?

LetFly

Lads,
Reading this post has got me thinking about the situation we can find ourselves in every day when out hunting...we come to a gate or gap in a ditch and I hand my gun (unloaded) to my mate while I need both hands to get up on and over the ditch....he then hands me his unloaded gun while he does the same...we are in effect breaking the law in that case then are we not as I am not licensed on his gun and he is not licensed on mine???

All this legally speaking talk is well and good in theory but in the REAL world its slightly different I think....let common sense prevail....

4gun

I have sold two guns over the past few years that were aqvertised here on boards. I often recieved pms from lads here asking would it be possible to fire the guns, my replys were based on the number and frequency of posts that they had on here,
If you were to buy from a dealer in this country you would not get a test fire in all but a very few cases.

Sparks

Gonzor wrote: »

The range is a great idea and all, but its a 2 hour drive to the nearest centerfire range. And even if we did drive all the way down neither of us are members.

It's not "a great idea and all". In the OP you asked about your legal standing. The law is quite clear on this one - if you fire a firearm that you're not licenced for anywhere other than on an authorised range, then you're breaking the law. (And that's authorised as in a Section 2(5) authorisation from the local Superintendent).

Legally speaking, how does the government expect us to sell firearms- what procedure do they encourage?

Legally speaking, they don't care. The PTB have been very explicit and forthcoming on this point for many years - the DoJ does not see its job as promoting sport, but as ensuring law and order and public safety. And they figure that people going around firing firearms they're not licenced on wherever they want to isn't compatible with public safety. Argue it with them and they'll tell you that you already can demonstrate the firearm to a potential buyer on a range.

Grizzly 45

Simply invite him along to wherever you" zero your rifle for hunting purposes "so he can watch it being fired by you.:cool:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Simply invite him along to wherever you" zero your rifle for hunting purposes "so he can watch it being fired by you.:cool:

...well, at least then only you get in legal trouble if caught...

(You have to love that gray area that results from saying that no target shooting can happen outside an authorised range and then forgetting to define zeroing and exempt it from the ban...)

tac foley

Gonzor wrote: »

Legally speaking, how does the government expect us to sell firearms- what procedure do they encourage?

Uh, like Sparks posted - 'Which is why we've always recommended selling firearms via RFDs, ever since the for sale/wanted forum here opened.'

tac

garv123

Can you fire a gun before you buy it off a RFD with his present or is it the same thing applies?

Sparks

garv123 wrote: »

Can you fire a gun before you buy it off a RFD with his present or is it the same thing applies?

The RFD is covered to possess, carry and fire the firearm under section 2(3) and 2(4); the customer is not. Unless it's on a range that has a 2(5) authorisation.

For what it's worth, if you buy a new ISSF rifle, you'll be putting down anything up to €5k (or more in some cases) without ever firing a shot; you have a test card fired from the rifle and that's part of the guarantee the rifle comes with. If you find that it has a problem, you get a new rifle or your money back. For second-hand kit, yes, that's more difficult, but the only RFDs I'd buy a firearm from all test their firearms before selling them on and stand over their goods.

Gonzor

LetFly wrote: »

Lads,
Reading this post has got me thinking about the situation we can find ourselves in every day when out hunting...we come to a gate or gap in a ditch and I hand my gun (unloaded) to my mate while I need both hands to get up on and over the ditch....he then hands me his unloaded gun while he does the same...we are in effect breaking the law in that case then are we not as I am not licensed on his gun and he is not licensed on mine???

All this legally speaking talk is well and good in theory but in the REAL world its slightly different I think....let common sense prevail....

Im about 99% sure someone can hold your firearm in your presence (providing of course you consent).

---

I think its like Grizzly said. I might just take him out while I zero the rifle.

No offence Sparks. But my local RFD puts an extra 50euro onto the price for himself, (which isnt bad I must admit) but he sells them on "buy it as you see it" he wouldnt give that paper test you mentioned.

SO the guy might aswell buy it off me "as he sees it" then buying it of the RFD "as he sees it" and save himself 50 quid.

Thanks for all the replies everyone

Sparks

Gonzor wrote: »

Im about 99% sure someone can hold your firearm in your presence (providing of course you consent)

You're almost right.
They can carry it from A to B for you, yes; but just standing about holding it (ie. with no destination in mind and no purpose other than to just look at the firearm) is legally possession of an unlicenced firearm.

Now if you were, say, walking out while hunting and they were carrying the firearm for you, as you might see during a driven hunt, that'd be legal under section 2.

No offence Sparks. But my local RFD puts an extra 50euro onto the price for himself, (which isnt bad I must admit) but he sells them on "buy it as you see it" he wouldnt give that paper test you mentioned.

You don't have to use your local RFD.

And I'm also not saying "I forbid you from doing this" off my own bat for a laugh either - I'm just answering your question about what the law says.

Cass

As was said above the OP asked for his LEGAL position. He got his answer. Whether he chooses to abide by that or not is not the responsibility of Boards.ie, it's members or it's mods.

We are not in control of what happens away from Boards, and we cannot allow the discussion of illegal activity on an open and public forum, nor do we condone such activity. Also to reiterate what was said above each person must judge a situation for themselves, and use best common sense.

kildare.17hmr

Sparks just a quick question on what you said about carrying a gun for someone, if im going out and bring a friend along he can legally carry a gun for me? Like if i want to bring the rifle and shotgun he can carry one for me?

johngalway

Without wishing to cause offence

By all means ask the question regarding the law, and clarify the situation. That's a smart thing to do.

But I can never get over why people say, publicly, they are going to go against the law after finding out what the law is.

Should anything go wrong, and I'd be awfully surprised it it were to, you've just hung yourself.

Gonzor

johngalway wrote: »

Without wishing to cause offence

By all means ask the question regarding the law, and clarify the situation. That's a smart thing to do.

But I can never get over why people say, publicly, they are going to go against the law after finding out what the law is.

Should anything go wrong, and I'd be awfully surprised it it were to, you've just hung yourself.

If thats directed at me then you should go back and re-read what I said :mad: I said I was going to take Grizzlys advice which is to take the guy out where he can watch ME zero my own rifle.

johngalway

Gonzor wrote: »

If thats directed at me then you should go back and re-read what I said :mad: I said I was going to take Grizzlys advice which is to take the guy out where he can watch ME zero my own rifle.

Gonzor wrote: »

It seems like I have no option but only to break the law.

You also said the above.

I've no problem with whatever you decide, but I fail to see the wisdom in advertising it.

Gonzor

My initial thoughts were:

It seems like I have no option but only to break the law.

and then the following day I concluded

I think its like Grizzly said. I might just take him out while I zero the rifle.

I dont see how you are making out that Im advertising that Im about to break the law.....

johngalway

Gonzor wrote: »

My initial thoughts were:



and then the following day I concluded



I dont see how you are making out that Im advertising that Im about to break the law.....

It was not solely directed at you. The first part of my above post seems to have gone unnoticed

It was a general point on a few bits and bobs I've seen posted over the past while.

If you wish to take offence to it, I can't stop you, none was intended.

Cass

You asked a specific question and got an answer. Anything you or anyone reading this decides to do is solely upon you or them.

I see no benefit from letting this continue. If you wish to discuss it with me feel free to PM me.

On that note thread closed.

Sparks

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Sparks just a quick question on what you said about carrying a gun for someone, if im going out and bring a friend along he can legally carry a gun for me? Like if i want to bring the rifle and shotgun he can carry one for me?

Just to answer that query; yes.

Firearms act, section 2(3) and 2(4) list off the different circumstances where someone does not need a firearms certificate to possess/use/carry a firearm (and "carry" here is as in "carriage", meaning to take an object to a specified destination, as oppsed to carrying it with you as you go about your daily business). The relevant section is 2(3)(f):

( f ) the carriage for sporting purposes only of a firearm or ammunition under instructions from and for the use of the holder of a firearm certificate for such firearm or ammunition;

Legally, you don't even have to be in the presence of the firearms holder (though I'd want the holder on speeddial, or to have their instructions in writing if I was doing that just in case I encountered a Garda who wanted to verify I was acting under 2(3)(f) and not just stealing someone's firearm)