Custer's Last Stand and American Indian myths

MarchDub

Inyan-Kara a mountain in the Black Hills is still today considered a sacred mountain to the Sioux.

CDfm

You can see why -its so beautiful.

dave2pvd

Fuinseog wrote: »

'The only good Indian is a dead Indian'
U. S. Grant (Scots Irish)

Maybe not.

According to Bury my Heart and the font of all wisdom, Wikipedia, it was a different Irishman - Philip Sheridan from Cavan. Well, sort of, but not really....

There is an anecdote told concerning Sheridan during his campaign against the Indians. Comanche Chief Tosawi, or Silver Knife, reputedly told Sheridan in 1869, "Me Tosawi. Me good Indian," to which Sheridan is said to have replied, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead."[45] This was then misquoted as "The only good Indian is a dead Indian". Sheridan later denied he had made the statement to Tosawi. Earlier that year, on May 28, Rep. James M. Cavanaugh said in the House, "I have never seen in my life a good Indian ... except when I have seen a dead Indian." That remark may have been mistakenly attributed to Sheridan.

Jolly Red Giant

This 15 minute talk by Arron Huey on the plight of the Lakota tribe in South Dakota is one of the more powerful videos I have seen on the treatment of an indigenous people.

tac foley

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

This 15 minute talk by Arron Huey on the plight of the Lakota tribe in South Dakota is one of the more powerful videos I have seen on the treatment of an indigenous people.

Breaks your heart. Should be required watching for every child in a school in the US over age 12.

In Ontario we have a large First Nation population - the main implant are the Mohawk Nation reservation at Tyendinaga about 30 miles east of us. These are the same guys who build and still build the many high-rise buildings in North America. The thing in your head that tells you to be afraid of heights seems to be entirely missing with them.

tac

pedroeibar1

tac foley wrote: »

Breaks your heart. Should be required watching for every child in a school in the US over age 12.
tac

Some hope. Several States and 60% of Americans have yet to accept Evolution. Look at this table: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/21329204.html

dave2pvd

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Some hope. Several States and 60% of Americans have yet to accept Evolution. Look at this table: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/21329204.html

What's that got to do with the price of cabbage?

CDfm

dave2pvd wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of cabbage?

Don't you mean the price of cabbage palm ?

http://www.choctawnation.com/culture-heritage/choctaw-traditions/cabbage-palmetto/

dubhthach

Came across the below on wikipedia, just shows how the US gov help break up reservation lands. The biggest chunk of land sold in 1910 was Lakota (Sioux) land coming in at over 120k acres. -- that's about 12 km² less in area then the whole of County Monaghan.

MarchDub

Found this interesting site from the University of Washington in the northwestern United States - not to be confused with Washington DC.

A movement in education developed whereby assimilation of the Indian into white society was attempted with the belief that education held the key to 'civilising' the native people. This was done mostly through boarding schools especially set up for Indian boys and girls. There was a double edge to this - on the one hand it was a job training effort but on the other hand the Indians were being taken away from anything that was particular to their own culture. It smacks of course of the sense of cultural superiority which was rife throughout all the European imperial empires of the period so in that sense there is nothing unique about this attitude.

Indian Boarding School Movement

The Indian boarding school movement began in the post Civil War era when idealistic reformers turned their attention to the plight of Indian people. Whereas before many Americans regarded the native people with either fear or loathing, the reformers believed that with the proper education and treatment Indians could become just like other citizens. They convinced the leaders of Congress that education could change at least some of the Indian population into patriotic and productive members of society. One of the first efforts to accomplish this goal was the Carlisle Indian School in Pennsylvania, founded by Captain Richard Henry Pratt in 1879. Pratt was a leading proponent of the assimilation through education policy. Believing that Indian ways were inferior to those of whites, he subscribed to the principle, "kill the Indian and save the man."

At Carlisle, young Indian boys and girls were subjected to a complete transformation. Photographs taken at the school illustrate how they looked "before" and "after". The dramatic contrast between traditional clothing and hairstyles and Victorian styles of dress helped convince the public that through boarding school education Indians could become completely "civilized". Following the model of Carlisle, additional off reservation boarding schools were established in other parts of the country, including Forest Grove, Oregon (later known as Chemawa)

http://content.lib.washington.edu/aipnw/marr.html

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Does anybody know if much historical work has been done on attitudes towards Native American's in nineteenth-century Ireland? I can't find much.

CDfm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Does anybody know if much historical work has been done on attitudes towards Native American's in nineteenth-century Ireland? I can't find much.

The traffic was moving in the other direction and it probably not have fitted into their world views.


I don't think there would have been an attitude because Irish people were amongst the most disadvantaged in Europe.

Would it have featured in newspapers or schoolbooks ?

What kind of angles were you thinking of ?

People must have known something if they were emigrating .

tac foley

CDfm wrote: »

The traffic was moving in the other direction and it probably not have fitted into their world views.


I don't think there would have been an attitude because Irish people were amongst the most disadvantaged in Europe.

Would it have featured in newspapers or schoolbooks ?

What kind of angles were you thinking of ?

People must have known something if they were emigrating .

Somehow I think that the plight of the Umpqua, Siuslaw, Clackamas, Tualatin and Siletz Native Americans in Washington and Oregon figured too strongly in the pages of the Cork Independent in the 1870's...

Of course, I could be wrong.

tac

CDfm

tac foley wrote: »

Somehow I think that the plight of the Umpqua, Siuslaw, Clackamas, Tualatin and Siletz Native Americans in Washington and Oregon figured too strongly in the pages of the Cork Independent in the 1870's...

Of course, I could be wrong.

tac

Do you have any ideas where we could look or any references ?

CDfm

I saw this on line in the US about how Irish Immigration is taught

http://teachers.yale.edu/curriculum/search/viewer.php?id=new_haven_90.05.07_u

Here is a Wisconsin site - and I believe some of my family settled there after going to Canada

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/tp-018/?action=more_essay

and here are some Irish pics from the 19th century just to put in context what Irish people were like

http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/2011/06/23/photos-from-a-forgotten-world-ireland-1860-1880/

Some Irish joined the US Army so contact via the Indian Wars was inevitable .

snafuk35

Are some of the people trying to argue indirectly that Americans should pack up and leave? Population pressure in Europe drove millions of impoverished people to go to America and take over land that was largely uncultivated and was not put to good use as they saw it by people who were still hunters and gatherers and were hostile to the modern world. It was almost inevitable there was going to be a conflict and the Indians and the giant herds of buffalo were in the path of cities and towns, miners, ranchers, industrialists and railroads. America was virgin country and once the 'empty' continent was discovered and its potential for agriculture and industry was realized that was basically it.
Custer's Last Stand was the end of the Indians - the white man had lost patience and they were going to be brought to heel or annihilated.
In the 21st century the US has moved on.
The past cannot be undone.

dave2pvd

snafuk35 wrote: »

Are some of the people trying to argue indirectly that Americans should pack up and leave? Population pressure in Europe drove millions of impoverished people to go to America and take over land that was largely uncultivated and was not put to good use as they saw it by people who were still hunters and gatherers and were hostile to the modern world. It was almost inevitable there was going to be a conflict and the Indians and the giant herds of buffalo were in the path of cities and towns, miners, ranchers, industrialists and railroads. America was virgin country and once the 'empty' continent was discovered and its potential for agriculture and industry was realized that was basically it.
Custer's Last Stand was the end of the Indians - the white man had lost patience and they were going to be brought to heel or annihilated.
In the 21st century the US has moved on.
The past cannot be undone.

Right.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that the white man's need trumped the red man's need.

It's so lovely when everything is black (red?) and white.

Now, extend the argument. The Irish really weren't making the best use of their resources from the 13th century onwards. They deserved to be invaded by empires who would.

tac foley

CDfm wrote: »

I saw this on line in the US about how Irish Immigration is taught

http://teachers.yale.edu/curriculum/search/viewer.php?id=new_haven_90.05.07_u

Here is a Wisconsin site - and I believe some of my family settled there after going to Canada

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/tp-018/?action=more_essay

and here are some Irish pics from the 19th century just to put in context what Irish people were like

http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/2011/06/23/photos-from-a-forgotten-world-ireland-1860-1880/

Some Irish joined the US Army so contact via the Indian Wars was inevitable .

In Canada we had our own Irish tragedies to think about -

http://www.moytura.com/grosse-ile.htm

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_Isle,_Quebec

Over 6600 Irishmen, women and children buried very soon after they had landed - dead of cholera. The memorials and the mounded heaps of the lines of mass graves are clearly there to see today, under the snow, that is.

In Québéc City alone, in 1832, there were over 3,300 Irish deaths.

Many who could choose went to America instead, and who can blame them?

Still, in spite of all the hardship and heartbreak, over 500,000 of us made it into Canada!

tac

snafuk35

dave2pvd wrote: »

Right.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that the white man's need trumped the red man's need.

It's so lovely when everything is black (red?) and white.

Now, extend the argument. The Irish really weren't making the best use of their resources from the 13th century onwards. They deserved to be invaded by empires who would.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing. Stop jumping to conclusions.

Jolly Red Giant

snafuk35 wrote: »

Are some of the people trying to argue indirectly that Americans should pack up and leave? Population pressure in Europe drove millions of impoverished people to go to America and take over land that was largely uncultivated and was not put to good use as they saw it by people who were still hunters and gatherers and were hostile to the modern world. It was almost inevitable there was going to be a conflict and the Indians and the giant herds of buffalo were in the path of cities and towns, miners, ranchers, industrialists and railroads. America was virgin country and once the 'empty' continent was discovered and its potential for agriculture and industry was realized that was basically it.
Custer's Last Stand was the end of the Indians - the white man had lost patience and they were going to be brought to heel or annihilated.
In the 21st century the US has moved on.
The past cannot be undone.

The primary initial driving force for conflict was gold. For example the discovery of gold in the Blackhills of South Dakota led to the conflict with Custer and to attempts at genocide against the Lakota. The United States government recognized the Black Hills as belonging to the Sioux by the Treaty of Laramie in 1868. When gold was discovered in 1874 the treaty was out the window.

You are correct that 'the past cannot be undone' - the problem is that the Native American Indians today are treated exactly the same as they were 150 years ago, if not worse. I suggest looking at the video from Aaron Huey that I posted above before replying.

snafuk35

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The primary initial driving force for conflict was gold. For example the discovery of gold in the Blackhills of South Dakota led to the conflict with Custer and to attempts at genocide against the Lakota. The United States government recognized the Black Hills as belonging to the Sioux by the Treaty of Laramie in 1868. When gold was discovered in 1874 the treaty was out the window.

You are correct that 'the past cannot be undone' - the problem is that the Native American Indians today are treated exactly the same as they were 150 years ago, if not worse. I suggest looking at the video from Aaron Huey that I posted above before replying.

Indians are being massacred in the 21st century are they? Are US Army units riding horses through their communities and sabring and scalping men women and children? Really? Really?

dave2pvd

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The primary initial driving force for conflict was gold.

It was not. The first conflict was the railroad going through Sioux land.

dubhthach

snafuk35 wrote: »

Indians are being massacred in the 21st century are they? Are US Army units riding horses through their communities and sabring and scalping men women and children? Really? Really?

Mod

Folks keep it friendly, trolling isn't welcome in this forum.

Jolly Red Giant

dave2pvd wrote: »

It was not. The first conflict was the railroad going through Sioux land.

Correct - a war that was followed by a treaty that recognised the existance of the Lakota nation and designated its boundaries. It was after gold was discovered in the Blackhills that the 'treaties' were 'dispensed' with and Custer began his campaign of genocide against the Lakota. Acknowledging the existance of a treaty acknowledges the existance of a nation - and you couldn't indiscriminately exploit the resources of a nation without destroying the nation.

snafuk35 wrote: »

Indians are being massacred in the 21st century are they? Are US Army units riding horses through their communities and sabring and scalping men women and children? Really? Really?

Yes they are being massacred -

The Lakota people are inhabitants of Prisoner of War Camp 334 - the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota

Some facts -

The Pine Ridge Reservation spans in the poorest 3 counties in the entire USA

Unemployment rate of 90%
Per capita income less than $4,000
8 Times the United States rate of diabetes
5 Times the United States rate of cervical cancer
Twice the rate of heart disease
8 Times the United States rate of Tuberculosis
Alcoholism rate estimated as high as 80%
1 in 4 infants born with fetal alcohol syndrome or effects
Suicide rate more than twice the national rate
Teen suicide rate 4 times the national rate
School drop-out rate is 70%
Teacher turnover is 8 Times the United States average
Infant mortality is three times the national rate
A third of the houses have no electricity
A third of the houses have no water or sewage systems
A third of the houses have no heating (winter temperatues can fall to -30 degrees)
Two thirds of the houses are infested with black mould causing countless health problems.
The reservation has no bank, no cinema, no public library and one medium sized grocery store
Nearby banks have been investigated for predatory lending to the inhabitants of the reservation
The is no public transport system
More than 70% of homes have no phoneline
Life expectancy on Pine Ridge at 47 years is the lowest in the United States and the 2nd lowest in the Western Hemisphere. Only Haiti has a lower rate. The inhabitants of 334 have the same life expectancy as the people of Afghanistan and Somalia.

The US government is currently facilitating a private conglomerate Powertech in the mining of uranium in the Blackhills. According to Nuclear Physics Professor Kimberly Kearfott, University of Michigan, radiation levels in parts of South Dakota are higher than those in the evacuated zones around the Fukushima Nuclear disaster. The water supply is being contaminated by leech mining. Every time the native people succeed in legally challanging uranium mining the conglomerates get the legislature to change the law.

The US government are no longer using guns, no longer slaughtering buffalo, no longer taking scalps from the heads of the natives - they are using poverty to massacre them instead.

snafuk35

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Correct - a war that was followed by a treaty that recognised the existance of the Lakota nation and designated its boundaries. It was after gold was discovered in the Blackhills that the 'treaties' were 'dispensed' with and Custer began his campaign of genocide against the Lakota. Acknowledging the existance of a treaty acknowledges the existance of a nation - and you couldn't indiscriminately exploit the resources of a nation without destroying the nation.


Yes they are being massacred -

The Lakota people are inhabitants of Prisoner of War Camp 334 - the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota

Some facts -

The Pine Ridge Reservation spans in the poorest 3 counties in the entire USA

Unemployment rate of 90%
Per capita income less than $4,000
8 Times the United States rate of diabetes
5 Times the United States rate of cervical cancer
Twice the rate of heart disease
8 Times the United States rate of Tuberculosis
Alcoholism rate estimated as high as 80%
1 in 4 infants born with fetal alcohol syndrome or effects
Suicide rate more than twice the national rate
Teen suicide rate 4 times the national rate
School drop-out rate is 70%
Teacher turnover is 8 Times the United States average
Infant mortality is three times the national rate
A third of the houses have no electricity
A third of the houses have no water or sewage systems
A third of the houses have no heating (winter temperatues can fall to -30 degrees)
Two thirds of the houses are infested with black mould causing countless health problems.
The reservation has no bank, no cinema, no public library and one medium sized grocery store
Nearby banks have been investigated for predatory lending to the inhabitants of the reservation
The is no public transport system
More than 70% of homes have no phoneline
Life expectancy on Pine Ridge at 47 years is the lowest in the United States and the 2nd lowest in the Western Hemisphere. Only Haiti has a lower rate. The inhabitants of 334 have the same life expectancy as the people of Afghanistan and Somalia.

The US government is currently facilitating a private conglomerate Powertech in the mining of uranium in the Blackhills. According to Nuclear Physics Professor Kimberly Kearfott, University of Michigan, radiation levels in parts of South Dakota are higher than those in the evacuated zones around the Fukushima Nuclear disaster. The water supply is being contaminated by leech mining. Every time the native people succeed in legally challanging uranium mining the conglomerates get the legislature to change the law.

The US government are no longer using guns, no longer slaughtering buffalo, no longer taking scalps from the heads of the natives - they are using poverty to massacre them instead.[/QUOTE

Are these people completely helpless children? None of them can take an interest in getting educated, get a job and pay their way? Like the rest of the United States?

Jolly Red Giant

snafuk35 wrote: »

Are these people completely helpless children? None of them can take an interest in getting educated, get a job and pay their way? Like the rest of the United States?

In response I will quote Aaron Huey from the video above

'The last chapter in any successful genocide is the one in which the oppressor can remove their hands and say "my god - what are these people are doing to themselves, they are killing each other, they are killing themselves" - while we watch them die.

This is how we cam to own these United States. This is the legacy of Manifest Destiny. Prisoners are still born into prisoner of war camps long after the guards have gone. These are the bones left after the best meat has been taken.'

In 1492 there were over 8 million people on the North American continent. By the turn of the last century less than 200,000 native people remained - all of them held in prisoner of war camps.

The USA is the richest country in the world yet has unguarded prisoner of war camps in their own country situated in counties that are among the poorest in the entire world because the land and the resources have been raped from the native people, leaving them an empty carcass while the agricultural and mining conglomerates continue to rake in vast profits from the land and resources of the Lakota people. By law the Lakota people are forced to rent their land to agricultural conglomerates at the rate of 50 cent an acre and have zero control over the vast mining that takes place on Lakota land.

The Oglala Lakota people have been and continue to be a proud and honourable people who have a deep love of the land and nature, who have been robbed of their land, their livelihood and their dignity by conglomerates who care only for their balance sheet. If the Lakota people were given back the control of their land and resources, and there is a legal basis from the Laramie Treaties that it should, then Shannon, Jackson and Bennett Counties would go from being the poorest in the USA to the richest - overnight.

slowburner

As a wee one, we used to say 'Cowardy, cowardy, custard, eats his mother's mustard'* in some game or other.
I wonder should we have been saying 'Cowardly, cowardly, Custer.'?
A dashing hero of American folklore or a pragmatic expert in ethnic cleansing?

In his My Life on the Plains, published two years before Little Big Horn he advocates a policy of using women and children as somewhat more than a bargaining chip.

Indians contemplating a battle, either offensive or defensive, are always anxious to have their women and children removed from all danger…For this reason I decided to locate our [military] camp as close as convenient to [Chief Black Kettle’s Cheyenne] village, knowing that the close proximity of their women and children, and their necessary exposure in case of conflict, would operate as a powerful argument in favor of peace, when the question of peace or war came to be discussed.

His attitude to the native people has a more than familiar ring to it.

It was only after receiving information that their village was attempting to escape to the mountains, it was deemed necessary to resort to summary measures to compel these refractory chiefs to fulfil their promise.

They were placed under a strong guard the moment we reached this point. Even this failed to produce the desired effect. All evidence went to show that their village was still moving farther away. Then it was that I announced to Lone Wolf and Satanta the decision which had been arrived at regarding them. I gave them until sunrise the following morning to cause their people to come in, or to give satisfactory evidence that they were hastening to come in. If no such evidence appeared, both these Chiefs were to be hung at Sunrise to the nearest tree. At the same time I afforded them every facility to send runners and communicate their desires to their tribe. This produced the desired effect. By sunrise several of the leading Kiowas came to my camp and reported the entire village on the move, hastening to place themselves under our control.

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~familyinformation/transcripts/elliott.html

*Wiki states that this originates from Noel Coward, the playwright.