Romans lack of Interest in ireland

atila

Are there theories for why the Romans did not bother coming to Ireland during the time they were inhabiting Britain?

P. Breathnach

Bórd Fáilte had not yet been established, and our self-promotion was inadequate.

You really should ask the complementary question: why would they have come? Had we anything they wanted, and in sufficient quantity to make an invasion worth their while?

coolabula

I just watched the 1st episode of The Story of Ireland on the RTE Player. Very interesting, they cover the Romans invasion of England and non-invasion of Ireland in the 1st episode.
From what I remember he said that they heard stories of our barbaric nature and horrible weather (which made us truly miserable) so they didnt want to waste their time with us

Sunnyisland

Expansion into Ireland simply didn't seem important enough and the land wasn't wealthy enough to warrant an invasion Additionally they just did not like invading islands not being too good at transporting troops over water. England being an exception to that,plus the Romans did not want to have the permanent necessary manpower that would have been necessary to attempt to control Ireland. open to correction of course

dubhthach

One could ask the same about why they didn't conquer Caledonia (modern day Scotland) either. I think it probably came down to something as mundane as economics. Would a ROI (Return on Investment) of conquering Ireland and Scotland be acheived. I reckon the beancounters figure it couldn't thus wasn't worth the effort.

In comparison the conquest of Dacia by Trajan in the early 2nd century of course brought it with a fairly large amount of mineral wealth. That and it was lot easier to cross the Danube (they built the bridge of Apollodorus) then the Irish Sea!

slowburner

atila wrote: »

Are there theories for why the Romans did not bother coming to Ireland during the time they were inhabiting Britain?

Ahem.
Actually they did come here but to what extent and if it was a military presence is still hotly debated.
Richard Warner, Keeper of Antiquities at the Ulster Museum, holds the minority view that the Romans did indeed invade Ireland.
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/BA14FEAT.HTML
This invasion though, differed from the massed legionaries in Britain; it probably consisted of exiled Irish and Roman trained British mercenaries.
However, the consensus seems to be that the Romans did not have a military presence on this island.
There is some widely accepted evidence of intermittent trading, largely through the discovery of Roman or Hiberno-Roman artefacts.
Drumanagh, Howth and Lambay Island in north county Dublin, Stoneyford in Kilkenny (some doubt about this one), Cashel in Tipperary, Bray in county Wicklow, Tara and Newgrange, Limerick and two sites I can't remember off hand in the north.
To date, no definitively Roman military artefacts have been unearthed.

Does this mean that there was never a Roman here carrying a Gladius and Scutum?
We don't know for certain, one way or the other.
There are hints that the Romans were interested in Ireland - they were certainly well aware of the island.
Agricola (quoted in Tacitus, Agricola, Book 1) might even have had the intent.

24. In the fifth year of the war Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown. In that part of Britain which looks towards Ireland, he posted some troops, hoping for fresh conquests rather than fearing attack, inasmuch as Ireland, being between Britain and Spain and conveniently situated for the seas round Gaul, might have been the means of connecting with great mutual benefit the most powerful parts of the empire. Its extent is small when compared with Britain, but exceeds the islands of our seas. In soil and climate, in the disposition, temper, and habits of its population, it differs but little from Britain. We know most of its harbours and approaches, and that through the intercourse of commerce. One of the petty kings of the nation, driven out by internal faction, had been received by Agricola, who detained him under the semblance of friendship till he could make use of him. I have often heard him say that a single legion with a few auxiliaries could conquer and occupy Ireland, and that it would have a salutary effect on Britain for the Roman arms to be seen everywhere, and for freedom, so to speak, to be banished from its sight.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/ag01020.htm
The 'petty king' referred to above was, in all probability, Tuathal Tectmar.

And then there is the questionable case of Maximus, Roman Governor of Britain from this secondary source David Hughes', 'The British Chronicles, Volume 1' p.112

Then there is the evidence of language; the name Cashel originates in Castellum. There is no Irish word equivalent to 'Temple' (Templemore, Templepatrick etc.) it is directly from Latin. There is more to be learned about this particular insight into our mist shrouded past.


By way of balance and to address the op's question: the Romans may not have invaded Ireland because by the time they were comfortably within range, they were overstretched on other fronts.
They may not have had the resources or the will to take on a sea venture.
There may not have been enough resources here to justify the expense, despite best efforts of the IDA and Bórd Fáilte.

I happen to think that they were here and probably in a more 'serious' capacity than is widely accepted.
And my grounds for this? I believe that there were resources here that would have made armed visits worthwhile. There are too many places with names that retain their Latin origin.
And most of all, the Romans were renowned masters of leaving as little trace of their military ventures behind as possible. It has been said (I can't remember by whom) that if there had been no written record of Caesar's first invasion, archaeology would not have discovered it.

dubhthach

I would caution with regards to the placename "Tempel" (Teampall) the word also means Church in Irish. It is of Latin origin but the bulk of latin loanwords in Irish date from the introduction of Christianity. Here is was Dil (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old/middle Irish period says)

tempul
tempull tempal tempall
Keywords: temple; human body; church; chapel; cathedral
Letter: T
COLUMN: 142
Line: 062

tempul
o, m. (Lat. templum). Later tempull. tempal, tempall, IGT Decl. § 17 (71.19) .

(a) temple (in biblical and classical sense): corrici ... t.€, Ml 130 d 17 . ni du choscrad in tempuil storidi, Tur. 80. 110 c . isnaib templaib gl. in delubris idulorum, Ml 139 c 5 . t.€ ... Solman, SR 7032 . fíal in tempuil (: dil), 7764 . tempuil na n-ídal, PH 457 . is-na templaib, 2029 . dāilfadh an Duilem | dōib co lār a tempail (: cheann- tair), ZCP viii 110.y . i t.€ ... Menerua, TTebe 742 . a tempall Deaain, St. Ercuil 2499 . ar bhfágbháil an teampuill Díosa, Matt. xxiv 1.

(b) Of human beings, the human body (the bibl. meta- phor): is sissi in tempul sin, Wb 8 d 7 . Cf. comthinól inna nóib asberr tempul doib, 21 c 7 . Iúdás ... is é ... as tempul díles do diabul, PH 5150 . ba teampul De (of Brigit), Lism. L. 1696 . gurob hé bhur gcorp teampoll an spiorad náoimh, 1 Cor. vi 19 . teampoll no ionad comhnuighe Dé do thruail- liughadh, Donl. xiv 14.

(c) church: cosrecad tempuill, Laws iii 18.19 . hi síd- fhlaith ind altair | i mbí toirm cech thempuil, Fél. May 10 . dorōnad tempall ... la Colmān, BColm. 40.15 . na huli aithni ule bertair i t.€ coitcend na heclaisi. Mas a t.€ coitcenn láither ní ícfa nech aithgin de (`? the church of the com- munity ,' Plummer MS. notes), H.3.17 , col. 659 b ( O'Don. 942 ). do-ní mé ... | glór teampaill tráth seanmóire, DDána 60.26 . bréid tealltaigh os gach luing láin | mur dhruim thempail dá thógbháil, IGT Decl. ex. 750 . gaeth mor ... cur trascair tigi ┐ templa imdo, Ann. Conn. 1252.3 . a adhnocol a tempoll Rosso coman, RC xvii 58.24 . Dis- tinguished from cell: an líon manach ... ag freastal na se dteampull do bhi san chill `the six temples ... church ,' Keat. iii 3108 . tempull Cille Dálua, Cog. 138.29 . mo theampall ós thigh cille (of Christ), Dán Dé xxiv 19 . Cf. bud he ... toigebus tempall na mainistrech-sa (of the chapel of a monastic settlement), RC xii 326 § 12 . Note also prīm- thempall `cathedral,' Fl. Earls 66.6 .

Likewise the word Cill also derives from Latin and also refers to Church (Cill Dara)

cell
cill Cille
Keywords: church; monastic; settlement; foundation; collection; ecclesiastical; buildings; sanctuary; churchyard; graveyard; sacrilege
Letter: C
COLUMN: 110
Line: 029

cell
ā, f. (Lat. cella). In later lang. also with ns. cill ( TSh. 5808 ).

(a) Usually transl. church, but in a number of exx. clearly ref. to monastic settlement or foundation, collection of ecclesiastical buildings: contubart F. acheill dóo, Thes. ii 242.21 (Ardm.). c.€ mór `great church ', 317.7 (Hy. ii). cét c.€ custói tond fo ógi offrinn, Lib. Hymn. 177.495 (ACC). .xvii. cella, Vita Br. 23 . atait secht cella etc. (heptad). Laws v 118 . dul tar chill, 474.11 . ? bása ch.€ mo dind / bád lem Érend íath, LU 9979 . i nArd mínMacha maith c.€, LL 15954 . can cairde ceall, BB 56 a 24 . cormand c.€ tiri Ele, YBL 132 a 35 . doronsat na clerig tóraind chilli, 316 a 42 . ab gach chill, Content. xviii 127 . secht n-airchinnich c.€, Ann. Inisf. 1029.2 . ar cheallaibh ┐ eccailsibh, FM iii 912.3 . an líon manach . . . ag freastal na sé dteampull do bhí san chill, Keat. ii 3108 . air an uachtarán cille `spiritual superior ', Donl. 106.12 .

(b) Extended applications: ba c.€ chendadach ┐ ba cómrar thaisceda sét somainech in talman hí (of Persepolis), Alex. 415 . In sense of sanctuary: fa ceall chomhdha (of a dead chief), DDána 110.12 . comairce ┐ ceall, 102.30 (`tearmann', Gloss.). Prov. celd cen cloc, Rawl. B 512 , 112 a 1 (cited Meyer Contribb.). Of the clergy as oppd. to laity: etir chill ┐ tuaith, RC xviii 196.22 . See túath (T 349.15 ff.). Of ground round a church, churchyard, graveyard: fa úir na cille. Misc. Hag. Hib. 15 § 8 . noco pīantar / fora n-īatur / ūr a c[h]ille, BColm. 28.26 . rés an gcorp ag triall gus an gcill, TSh. 5720 . gur scríob chúichi an chill trí gnaoi-mhúinte grinn `the grave has gathered ', E. O'Rahilly xii 31 . Cf. clad cille, Ériu xvii 70 § 13 .i. in relig, 72 .
In n.pr. imchoin na ceall, IT iii 80 § 53 . Colum Cille, pass. In insulting nick-name: c.€ coire, Laws v 230.4 Comm. , expld. as `a church in which milk-and-water only is drunk, a miserable place' (O'Curry), note p. 231.
Very freq. in nn.loc.., see Hog. Onom.

Compds. With nouns: i ndíoghail na ceallairgthe sin `sacrilege', Keat. iii 4567 . ceallogam . . . .i. Beanchar, etc. , Auraic. 5702 . is cell-phort do Padraig, BB 268 b 12 (ceand- phort, BR 30.15 ). With adjj. derived from nouns: is buaid clerigh cliaraig ceolaigh ceallabranaigh, BB 295 a 11 . don eing cheathraigh cheallainglidhe, DDána 89.10 . eiriceach ┐ . . . ceallairgtheach, Eochairsg. 103.9 .

Another word connected to Church derived from Latin is Domhnach. eg. Domhnach Broc (Donnybrook) = Church of Broc

Derived from Latin: dominicus

clear thinking

coolabula wrote: »

From what I remember he said that they heard stories of our barbaric nature and horrible weather (which made us truly miserable) so they didnt want to waste their time with us

Unfortunately I cant remember Roman times, so you have me at a disadvantage.

However my view is that following the fall of the republic the emperors feared allowing any further significant further conquest as a successful general was likey to claim the top job. Sulla got the ball rolling on that front.

It was a lack of political will rather a fear of Barbarians or Cold that put a stop on things. Just ask Vercingetorix, or the Jewish rebels in the seige of Jerusalem, or Mithridates (and his offspring) of pontus - quick Ceasar refresh: Veni, Vidi, Vici

clear thinking

realies wrote: »

Additionally they just did not like invading islands not being too good at transporting troops over water. England being an exception to that,plus the Romans did not want to have the permanent necessary manpower that would have been necessary to attempt to control Ireland. open to correction of course

All wrong. They controlled every mediterranaen island and the biggest island in europe. Pompey wiped out all naval opposition in the Med in one campaigning season, Scipio dealt the killer blow to the Carthaginians, however in the first punic war between (Rome and Carthage) was largely Naval. Rome matched up and the conflict moved onto the land.

As regards manpower, the Romans had the finance and resources to raise armies at will from any point starting about 250bc right up to 250ad. Once in a territory they could relatively quickly raise armies locally.

Manach

Nice to see the Classical spirit is still alive and well here on boards.ie.
IMHO, and based on Luttwerk's "Strategy of the Roman empire2, I reckon they exercised a form of soft control. That their diplomatic corps. had the knowledge of the local power elites and knew who to bribe and who to threaten to maintain order.
In the grand scheme, Hibernia did not have the same global importance as say the Dacian or Parthian borders.

CDfm

The Roman thing goes around and around. Julius Caesar wrote about it insofar as he knew it existed and its size.

The earliest reputed Irish connection in Rome as fair as I can see was Pelagius (d 418).

But about his long life prior to the year 400 and above all about his youth, we are left wholly in the dark. Even the country of his birth is disputed. While the most trustworthy witnesses, such as Augustine, Orosius, Prosper, and Marius Mercator, are quite explicit in assigning Britain as his native country, as is apparent from his cognomen of Brito or Britannicus, Jerome (Praef. in Jerem., lib. I and III) ridicules him as a "Scot" (loc. cit., "habet enim progeniem Scoticae gentis de Britannorum vicinia"), who being "stuffed with Scottish porridge" (Scotorum pultibus proegravatus) suffers from a weak memory. Rightly arguing that the "Scots" of those days were really the Irish, H. Zimmer ("Pelagius in Ireland", p. 20, Berlin, 1901) has advanced weighty reasons for the hypothesis that the true home of Pelagius must be sought in Ireland, and that he journeyed through the southwest of Britain to Rome. Tall in stature and portly in appearance (Jerome, loc. cit., "grandis et corpulentus"), Pelagius was highly educated, spoke and wrote Latin as well as Greek with great fluency and was well versed in theology. Though a monk and consequently devoted to practical asceticism, he never was a cleric; for both Orosius and Pope Zosimus simply call him a "layman". In Rome itself he enjoyed the reputation of austerity, while St. Augustine called him even a "saintly man", vir sanctus: with St. Paulinus of Nola (405) and other prominent bishops, he kept up an edifying correspondence, which he used later for his personal defence.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm

That would have made him a near contemporary of St Patrick.

So surely, the place to start would be actual interaction we would know about and if I know about an alleged Irish guy in Rome there must be others.

Anything I have previously seen points to trade but not occupation. (Even Henry VIII wanted timber for ships.)

So what are the written references and archaelogical finds ? If St Patrick was kidnapped , what contact did the Irish have externally ?

What were the extent of the raids/skirmishes and when did the start.

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

So what are the written references and archaelogical finds ? If St Patrick was kidnapped , what contact did the Irish have externally ?

What were the extent of the raids/skirmishes and when did the start.

from an archaelogical point of view one example of an Irish community in Roman Britain is the Silchester Ogham Stone which was found at the bottom of an infilled well in the Roman town of Silchester.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/cisp/database/stone/silch_1.html

Recent dating puts the filling of the well in the late 4th century/early 5th century. See:
An Early Date For Ogham: The Silchester Ogham Stone Rehabilitated
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol44/44_001_023.pdf

slowburner

CDfm wrote: »

The Roman thing goes around and around.

It sure does.


Three very similar names: Pelagius, Palladius, Patricius (St.Patrick)

• All early fifth century.
• All of questionable birthplace.
• All pioneers of the Roman church.
• All connected with Ireland.

Patrick's shamrock represents the Holy Trinity............or does it?

Dan Brown, eat your heart out.

CDfm

We are way ahead of you and named the book

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76565186&postcount=41



Seriously though, we need to nail down proven undisputed contact between Ireland an the outside world at the time.

Like these maps , this Ptolemy dude had a map c. 150




http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire150.htm

And this , Late Iron Age Roman Ireland project

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/151-summary-of-the-liari-workshops-14112011-.html

slowburner

CDfm wrote: »

And this , Late Iron Age Roman Ireland project

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/151-summary-of-the-liari-workshops-14112011-.html

There is a forum there but for the life of me, I can't figure out how or if it is possible for a Joe Soap to sign up.
http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/forum.html


Just came across this from Strabo (d.24 AD)

And the distance from Massilia to Britain may possibly correspond to that from Byzantium to the mouth of the Borysthenes; but the distance that should be set down for the stretch from Britain to Ierne is no longer a known quantity, nor is it known whether there are still inhabitable regions farther on, nor need we concern ourselves about the question if we give heed to what Hesiod said above. For, so far as science is concerned, it is sufficient to assume that, just as it was appropriate in the case of the southern regions to fix a limit of the habitable world by proceeding three thousand stadia south of Meroë (not indeed as though this were a very accurate limit, but as one that at least approximates accuracy), so in this case too we must reckon not more than three thousand stadia north of Britain, or only a little more, say, four thousand stadia. And for governmental purposesa there would be no advantage in knowing such countries and their inhabitants, and particularly if the people live in islands which are of such a nature that they can neither injure nor benefit us in any way because of their isolation. For although they could have held even Britain, the Romans scorned to do so, because they saw that there was nothing at all to fear from the Britons (for they are not strong enough to cross over and attack us), and that no corresponding advantage was to be gained by taking and holding their country. For it seems that at present more revenue is derived from the duty on their commerce than the tribute could bring in, if we deduct the expense involved in the maintenance of an army for the purpose of guarding the island and collecting the tribute; and the unprofitableness of an occupation would be still greater in the case of the other islands about Britain.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/2E1*.html

owenc

Maybe it was too far west? Are maybe they couldn't get? I'm not sure but i bet its something to do with that.

bastados

No doubt it would have been easy to estimate the worth of Ireland simply studying the trade between the 2 countries...any significant produce would leave a "footprint".

Am far more interested in the roman difficulty with the druids.

sensibleken

slowburner wrote: »

To date, no definitively Roman military artefacts have been unearthed.

Part of 2nd century Roman armour was found at Rathgael hillfort in wicklow

slowburner

bastados wrote: »

No doubt it would have been easy to estimate the worth of Ireland simply studying the trade between the 2 countries...any significant produce would leave a "footprint".

Am far more interested in the roman difficulty with the druids.

Not so sure it would be 'easy' to estimate the degree of trade.
It was quite a long time ago and many materials simply would not have survived.
There is not going to be any physical evidence of perishable goods for example, so for that aspect of trading we will be dependent on the difficult and dubious historical record.
As mentioned above, some artefacts of Roman origin have been discovered and well documented.
Some, raise more questions than answers.

bastados

slowburner wrote: »

Not so sure it would be 'easy' to estimate the degree of trade.
It was quite a long time ago and many materials simply would not have survived.
There is not going to be any physical evidence of perishable goods for example, so for that aspect of trading we will be dependent on the difficult and dubious historical record.
As mentioned above, some artefacts of Roman origin have been discovered and well documented.
Some, raise more questions than answers.

I mean for the roman to establish any significance ,back then..not us today

slowburner

sensibleken wrote: »

Part of 2nd century Roman armour was found at Rathgael hillfort in wicklow

No sign of it here
http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=Wicklow&site_no=&site_name=rathgall&site_type=&report_text=&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search

The closest artefact is this

The existence of some form of settlement at Rathgall in the early centuries A.D. is established by the discovery of a decorated bronze strap-end of sub-Roman type, while late thirteenth century silver coins and green-glazed pottery indicate a fairly intensive occupation during the Mediaeval period.
* Antiquity 44, 1970, 51-54
Mr. Barry Raftery, Department of Archaeology/U.C.D.

http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Details.php?Year=&County=Wicklow&id=5443

sensibleken

slowburner wrote: »

No sign of it here
http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=Wicklow&site_no=&site_name=rathgall&site_type=&report_text=&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search

The closest artefact is this

http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Details.php?Year=&County=Wicklow&id=5443

yes i believe the strap was the type used on armour no?

slowburner

Don't know to be honest but would 'sub-Roman' indicate that it was not actually Roman? Possibly more a copy of a Roman strap?
Either way it was not given much attention, methinks

CDfm

slowburner wrote: »

Not so sure it would be 'easy' to estimate the degree of trade.
It was quite a long time ago and many materials simply would not have survived.

Some, raise more questions than answers.

Could you estimate this by wars or incursions that are recorded ??




Cornwall & Devon are mentioned here.

And would stuff like later monasteries etc give a clue to where contact existed.

It makes sense that people traveled to and from places that they were familiar with.

dubhthach

Regarding Wales and Cornwall. Here are two maps showing Ogham stone distrubition in Wales and in the West country (Cornwall+Devon)





there's quite abit of Ogham stones in South-West Wales in the area that later became the "Kingdom of Dyfed".

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

Maybe it was too far west? Are maybe they couldn't get? I'm not sure but i bet its something to do with that.

I was in the Canaries a few years back and a tour guide told us that pre Columbus the Spanish believed the islands and the Maderias were at the edge of the world.

That earth is flat idea came from somewhere.

There is a bit of what would be the point of invading Ireland for the Roman's.

Now I do not know how reliable this guy is but look at this map



He seems to say that is was the Irish who colonised Britain.

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

I was in the Canaries a few years back and a tour guide told us that pre Columbus the Spanish believed the islands and the Maderias were at the edge of the world.

That earth is flat idea came from somewhere.

There is a bit of what would be the point of invading Ireland for the Roman's.

Now I do not know how reliable this guy is but look at this map



He seems to say that is was the Irish who colonised Britain.

I think his point is more that there are groups in Ireland who are also found in Britain and Gaul. For example the Domnainn and Belgae were both in Southern Britain (West Country) -- from whom we have the Fir Domnann and potentially the name "Fir Bolg".

Of course Erris in Mayo is known as "Iorras Domnann" in Irish, and if ye believe the semi-mytholigical writings the Fir Domnann were one of three components of the Laighin.

CDfm

dubhthach wrote: »

I think his point is more that there are groups in Ireland who are also found in Britain and Gaul. For example the Domnainn and Belgae were both in Southern Britain (West Country) -- from whom we have the Fir Domnann and potentially the name "Fir Bolg".

I am not very familiar with that era. Were the tribes united or had they been beaten in Europe & Britain ?

Conquering & subduing a semi nomadic tribe is a bit different to a town is it not ?

slowburner

dubhthach wrote: »

I think his point is more that there are groups in Ireland who are also found in Britain and Gaul. For example the Domnainn and Belgae were both in Southern Britain (West Country) -- from whom we have the Fir Domnann and potentially the name "Fir Bolg".

Of course Erris in Mayo is known as "Iorras Domnann" in Irish, and if ye believe the semi-mytholigical writings the Fir Domnann were one of three components of the Laighin.

Oddly enough, Iorras Domhnann is where Tuathal Teachtmar is reputed to have landed.

Tuathal was twenty-five years of age at that time. And they put into port at Iorrus Domhnann, where they met Fiachaidh Casan with his brother. Thence they proceeded to Tara, and there assembled their supporters from all parts of Ireland to meet Tuathal, and they proclaimed him king of Ireland.....Then Tuathal and his supporters went against the Athachthuaith throughout Ireland, and defeated them in twenty-five battles in Ulster, and twenty-five battles in Leinster, and twenty-five battles in Connaught, and thirty-five battles in Munster.

http://http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100054/text049.html

dubhthach

slowburner wrote: »

Oddly enough, Iorras Domhnann is where Tuathal Teachtmar is reputed to have landed.
http://http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100054/text049.html

What's interesting about Tuathal Teachtmar is he's titular ancestor of the Connachta/Uí Néill. His story of course tells of how his mother fled back to her father (King of Alba -- at this time it probably meant Britain not scotland) while pregnant with him and that he later returned with an army to reclaim his rightfull inheritance (The High-Kingship).

There are several stories of this variety, some have argued that what they serve is as a means to writing in an "invading group" into the history by subsuming them. so in case of Tuathal he wasn't invading he was returning.

Anyways what's interesting about the Connachta/Uí Néill is they have a distinct SNP that marks them as a subclade within L21. ergo they are L21+ DF23+ M222+

Men bearing this signature are also found in Northern England/Lowland Scotland. The current evidence points to higher variation in samples form there thus potentially and older sample population. DF23 is recently enough discovered and there is at least one cluster from South-West England/Wales that is L21+ DF23+ M222-

The potential implications thus are a migratory process up through island of Britain, the first occurrence of M222+ probably in Northern Britain followed by migration of some carriers into Ireland. From which they spread and multiplied such that 1 in 6 of every Donegal men are carriers.

Some have even ventured as a result that the Veniiconnes which Ptomley put in Northern Britain as been a connection. After all another name for the Connachta is the Dál Cuinn

Veni is cognate with old Irish Féni (V -> F in Goidelic). Some have argued (O'Rahilly I believe?) of course that Conn was potentially a tribal deity and not a real person.

Judgement Day

Thought this might be of interest. Roman (?) coins found near River Slaney in County Wexford - for sale on eBay here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Unknown-Roman-Coin-good-condition-Found-near-Slaney-River-Co-Wexford-Ireland-/280822290990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4162501a2e#ht_500wt_1202

slowburner

:eek:
What to do?

slowburner

Another half dozen here
He's been a busy little bee.

CDfm

slowburner wrote: »

Another half dozen here
He's been a busy little bee.

Does anyone know what they are ?

slowburner

No info as yet.
Should be interesting though, if they're genuine.
It is hard to make out anything definite, but I would make a stab at the emperors Florianus (276 AD), Septimus (193 AD) and Claudius (54 AD).

A fairly wide ranging group of Roman coins to find on the banks of the Slaney.

MarchDub

slowburner wrote: »

No info as yet.
Should be interesting though, if they're genuine.
It is hard to make out anything definite, but I would make a stab at the emperors Florianus (276 AD), Septimus (193 AD) and Claudius (54 AD).

A fairly wide ranging group of Roman coins to find on the banks of the Slaney.

I think if they are genuine the National Museum would be interested in hearing about them. For legal reasons.

CDfm

slowburner wrote: »

No info as yet.
Should be interesting though, if they're genuine.
It is hard to make out anything definite, but I would make a stab at the emperors Florianus (276 AD), Septimus (193 AD) and Claudius (54 AD).

A fairly wide ranging group of Roman coins to find on the banks of the Slaney.

What would they normally be worth ?

MarchDub wrote: »

I think if they are genuine the National Museum would be interested

Were there many hoards found in Ireland and what is the law.

Also, are there forgeries out there ?

I didn't think roman coins were that rare ?

slowburner

MarchDub wrote: »

I think if they are genuine the National Museum would be interested in hearing about them. For legal reasons.

Contacted them yesterday morning.
They were most grateful - resources are not exactly overflowing at the National Museum in the present climate.
They simply do not have the staff to monitor all the possible exits for Irish artefacts, so extra eyes and ears would be welcome.
Big thanks to JD for spotting it and posting up.

If anyone else is aware of 'things' lined up to leave the country like this, they can give the museum a call at 01 6777444.

MarchDub

slowburner wrote: »

Contacted them yesterday morning.
They were most grateful - resources are not exactly overflowing at the National Museum in the present climate.
They simply do not have the staff to monitor all the possible exits for Irish artefacts, so extra eyes and ears would be welcome.
Big thanks to JD for spotting it and posting up.

If anyone else is aware of 'things' lined up to leave the country like this, they can give the museum a call at 01 6777444.

Do you mean me?
Good on you Slowburner. Great follow-up. Yes, Irish Law is quite specific on both the export and even the random 'finding' of ancient artifacts.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Do you mean me?

Declares MarchDub a National Treasure

* bows head reverently*

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Declares MarchDub a National Treasure

* bows head reverently*

Shhh...Well OK but please don't reveal which bog they found me in

slowburner

MarchDub wrote: »

Do you mean me?
Good on you Slowburner. Great follow-up. Yes, Irish Law is quite specific on both the export and even the random 'finding' of ancient artifacts.

JD = Judgement Day
He spotted them.

Judgement Day

This Irish eBayer also has some dubious looking items for sale.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/merddy/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25#item27c375e4a9



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IRISH-METAL-DETECTING-FIND-CELTIC-BRONZE-RING-/170783003677?pt=UK_Antiquities&hash=item27c375d41d#ht_500wt_1202

We should probably start a separate thread for this but I haven't the energy.

slowburner

Fair play to you JD. Appreciate it.
One thing about this seller is worrying, how does a metal detector pick up flint?
God only knows what damage was done in the process of digging this up.

slowburner

Just noticed that this particular seller is in Antrim so obviously outside the jurisdiction.
Don't let that stop you from spotting others - no doubt there will be plenty of others within the jurisdiction.

slowburner

The 'Irish' Roman coins are currently on their way to the National Museum.
When I find out a bit more about their origin, I'll let you know.

jonniebgood1

slowburner wrote: »

The 'Irish' Roman coins are currently on their way to the National Museum.
When I find out a bit more about their origin, I'll let you know.

Great work Judgement day and Slowburner. Its good to see a genuine benefit come out of peoples interest in heritage.

pedroeibar1

From Irish Times Thursday Feb 16th.

So what have the Romans ever done for us?

Ireland’s links with the Roman empire are being investigated in a new archaeological project in which science plays a large part writes ANTHONY KING

FIRST CENTURY AD. The Roman General Agricola reportedly says he can take and hold Ireland with a single legion. Some archaeologists have claimed the Romans did campaign in Ireland, but most see no evidence for an invasion. Imperial Rome and this island on its far western perimeter did share interesting links, however.

The Discovery Programme, a Dublin-based public institution for advanced research in archaeology, is to investigate Ireland’s interactions with the empire and with Roman Britain, aiming to fill gaps in the story of the Irish iron age, the first 500 years after the birth of Christ.

The project, Late Iron Age and Roman Ireland (Liari) could uncover a surprising role for Roman culture, predicts Dr Jacqueline Cahill Wilson, project leader. It offers “a new narrative for this formative period of early Irish history”.

Science is going to drive the project, and the interpretation presented by the researchers will be based on science as much as the archaeology, Cahill Wilson explains.

Roman artifacts including coins, glass beads and brooches turn up in many Irish counties, especially in the east.

Cahill Wilson investigated human remains from iron age burial sites in Meath for her doctoral research at the University of Bristol. She learned much about these people by using strontium and isotope analysis and carbon dating.

Remarkably, this allowed her say where they most likely spent their childhood. One burial site on a low ridge overlooking the sea in Bettystown, Co Meath, was dated to the 5th/6th century AD using radiocarbon dating. Most of the people were newcomers to the area, Cahill Wilson concluded.

The clue was in their teeth. Enamel, one of the toughest substances in our body, completely mineralises around the age of 12 and its composition remains unaltered to the grave and beyond. It is “a snapshot of where you lived up to the age of 12”, Wilson explains.

The element strontium (Sr), which is in everything we eat and drink, exists in a number of chemical forms, or isotopes. The ratio of two of these isotopes (87Sr and 86Sr) varies, shifting with the underlying geology, and this too can indicate where the owner of the tooth grew up.

Similarly, the ratio of oxygen isotopes varies with factors such as latitude, topography and hydrological conditions.

“Enough comparative data is available now that we can start to plot and map the ratios to see where people are likely to be from,” Cahill Wilson explains. Paired analysis of strontium and oxygen in tooth enamel from a burial in Bettystown revealed that one interred individual grew up in North Africa.

Eamonn Kelly, keeper of Irish Antiquities at the National Museum of Ireland, distinctly remembers the Bettystown excavation, which he directed in the 1970s. “One particular burial stood out as being very unusual,” he says. The body lay in a crouched position and seemed to have been treated in a different manner to the rest of the burials. This male could have been a slave, but Kelly thinks he was most likely a trader, possibly from the Roman world.

Roman material has been found at Tara and Newgrange, and Roman pottery has been dredged from the River Boyne. A large coastal promontory fort in north Dublin also turned up Roman objects, and Kilkenny hosts a Roman burial site.

Kelly believes the Romans never invaded because the countryside was unsuited to their villa system: the economic cost-benefits failed to stack up, he says. “These guys could get what they wanted without being physically present. I think what they were interested in from Ireland was agricultural produce, probably butter, cattle and cattle hide, as well as slaves and mercenaries.”

The Liari project will deploy advanced survey techniques in Dublin, Westmeath and Kilkenny to seek evidence for Roman sites. Robert Shaw, senior surveyor for the programme, describes aerial laser scanning, or Lidar, as one of the most important developments in archaeology over the last 10 years.

This models the landscape surface in exquisite detail. The ground-based techniques rely on measurements of magnetic and electrical resistance anomalies of the earth, so no destructive digging is required.

Surveys are not expected to uncover the Roman’s distinctive linear roads or their large rectangular forts, but what did it mean to be “Roman” in Ireland?

The warring centurians and toga-wearing politicians made popular in film comprised less than two per cent of Roman Britain.

“The rest of the people engaged with the new Roman administration in a variety of ways,” says Cahill Wilson, and “there were different ways to be a Roman within the provinces”.

The project will use the latest scientific methods, such as geochemistry, to explore population migration, X-ray fluorescence and isotope analysis to trace the origin of metals and minerals, and pollen analysis to resurrect past environments.

“We need to be a bit more systematic and scientific in terms of what we are doing,” says Cahill Wilson, but these tools are additions to traditional archaeology’s kit.

Kelly says it is not surprising Roman material turns up, especially on the coast facing Roman Britain. We know Niall of the Nine Hostages had a British mother, he says. “These guys were marrying women from the other side of the Irish Sea. There would have been dynastical alliances across the sea.

“Ireland was in immediate proximity to the world superpower,” he adds. “Ireland was becoming heavily influenced from the 1st century AD by Rome. The introduction of Christianity in the 5th century is just part of that process.

“We took on a great swathe of Roman cultural influence, including the Roman religion, and all without a Roman legion landing and telling us how to do our business.”

dubhthach

Given that they mention ancient remains I do hope they at least try and extract some viable aDNA (Ancient DNA). Major improvements in extracting viable samples over the last couple of years. However it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't even on their RADAR.

slowburner

I've selected a few quotations from the IT article which, I think, probably sum up the Roman attitude to Hibernia.
Much of this has been very covered in this thread which is still developing nicely, if intermittently.
The strontium analysis and the rc dating is new, though. I would love to hear more about the birthplaces of others from Roman or Roman style burials.

“The rest of the people engaged with the new Roman administration in a variety of ways,” says Cahill Wilson, and “there were different ways to be a Roman within the provinces”.

“These guys could get what they wanted without being physically present. I think what they were interested in from Ireland was agricultural produce, probably butter, cattle and cattle hide, as well as slaves and mercenaries.”

Hmm. What about gold from Wicklow and copper? William O'Brien's research into the copper mines of Mount Gabriel states that Ireland was a net exporter of copper in the Bronze Age.
(I'll post a bit more on this later)

“One particular burial stood out as being very unusual,” he says. The body lay in a crouched position and seemed to have been treated in a different manner to the rest of the burials. This male could have been a slave, but Kelly thinks he was most likely a trader, possibly from the Roman world.

To which I add

The following quaint proverb is a relic of paganism,
analogous to the Roman custom of placing a small
coin in the mouth of the corpse to pay Charon his
toll :—
Cha deachaidh aon fhear a réamh go h-Ifrionne gan sé
phighiridh air faghail bháis dó, i. e. no man ever went to
hell without sixpence at the time of his death.

From Pagan Ireland, An Archaeological Sketch. W.G.Wood-Martin. 1895

slowburner

dubhthach wrote: »

Given that they mention ancient remains I do hope they at least try and extract some viable aDNA (Ancient DNA). Major improvements in extracting viable samples over the last couple of years. However it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't even on their RADAR.

It might not be on their RADAR but it is on their LIDAR
I wonder why the DNA work has not been carried out before?