[slowburner]

Any thoughts, theories, opinions, wisdom or reference gratefully received
To date, no physical evidence has been found to indicate that there was any form of Roman presence in Wicklow.
Two things indicate that this might be a possibility.
The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans" and the translation has not been refuted to the best of my knowledge.
And the possible presence of Palladius - who I am assured - was not St.Patrick

Annal M430
M430.0
The Age of Christ, 430.
M430.1
The second year of Laeghaire.
M430.2
In this year Pope Celestinus the First sent Palladius to Ireland, to propagate the faith among the Irish, and he landed in the country of Leinster with a company of twelve men. Nathi, son of Garchu, refused to admit him; but, however, he baptized a few persons in Ireland, and three wooden churches were erected by him, namely, Cell Fhine, Teach Na Romhan, and Domhnach Arta. At Cell Fhine he left his books, and a shrine with the relics of Paul and Peter, and many martyrs besides. He left these four in these churches: Augustinus, Benedictus, Silvester, and Solinus. Palladius, on his returning back to Rome (as he did not receive respect in Ireland), contracted a disease in the country of the Cruithnigh, and died thereof.

[MarchDub]

Originally Posted by slowburner

Any thoughts, theories, opinions, wisdom or reference gratefully received
To date, no physical evidence has been found to indicate that there was any form of Roman presence in Wicklow.
Two things indicate that this might be a possibility.
The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans" and the translation has not been refuted to the best of my knowledge.
And the possible presence of Palladius - who I am assured - was not St.Patrick

Slowburner - Not sure what you are asking exactly here - Palladius was a Christian missionary sent by the Pope and there were Christian missionaries prior to Patrick's time and after.

[Fratton Fred]

Could Roman in this sense mean Roman Church?

[patwicklow]

The first is a townland near Avoca by the name of Tigroney, this is translated locally as "The House of the Romans"

Im from this area and iv never heard anything in history about this, But i will do some research and get back,

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

Slowburner - Not sure what you are asking exactly here - Palladius was a Christian missionary sent by the Pope and there were Christian missionaries prior to Patrick's time and after.

The quotation from the Annals in the OP illustrates what you say about Palladius.

There is a townland in Avoca called Tigroney Tigh Ronaí which is reputed to mean 'the House of the Romans'.
Palladius (a Roman) landed in Leinster and according to the Annals, one of his churches was called 'Teach na Romhan' 'The House of the Romans'.
If you connect these two ideas it would seem a fair assumption that Palladius was in Avoca around 430 AD.
Any clearer?

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by Fratton Fred

Could Roman in this sense mean Roman Church?

I suppose it could. But I think there is more to it than just Roman missionaries. I get the impression that any substantial history concerning Palladius et al (if there were any al ) was largely overshadowed by the Arrival of St.Patrick.

[MarchDub]

Originally Posted by slowburner

The quotation from the Annals in the OP illustrates what you say about Palladius.

There is a townland in Avoca called Tigroney Tigh Ronaí which is reputed to mean 'the House of the Romans'.
Palladius (a Roman) landed in Leinster and according to the Annals, one of his churches was called 'Teach na Romhan' 'The House of the Romans'.
If you connect these two ideas it would seem a fair assumption that Palladius was in Avoca around 430 AD.
Any clearer?

I don't know which annal you are quoting from but the written Irish sources don't begin until later than that date and so any Irish 'entries' in the Irish annals for that time are backdated, if you know what I mean - and that would apply to the foundation of a church also.

Our genuine source on Palladius is from Roman documents.

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

I don't know which annal you are quoting from but the written Irish sources don't begin until later than that date and so any Irish 'entries' in the Irish annals for that time are backdated, if you know what I mean - and that would apply to the foundation of a church also.

Our genuine source on Palladius is from Roman documents.

The quote from the annal is from this link. You can reference it through the numbers in the original post.
I fully understand what you say about the 'back dating' which casts doubt on the authenticity of the older entries in the Annals.


To be honest, I'm posting this more under the Heritage part of the forum title so, if information comes from secondary sources, that's grand. I certainly don't have access to any primary sources - or the linguistic skills to interpret them. That is, if there are any relevant primary sources.
So, as I said in the OP, I would be grateful for any information, even if it comes from tertiary sources or folklore.

The only primary sources I have available are stones, ditches and structures. I spent most of yesterday in the company of an eminent archaeologist wandering around the Wicklow uplands looking at some of these primary sources, about which, very little is known.

[slowburner]

Can anyone point me towards a source where I might be able to research possible changes in the size of townlands. Even better, is there any way that I can research the establishment of present day townland boundaries?
The reason I need to follow this up is that the adjacent townland to Tigroney is Kilcashel and after a discussion with a scholarly contributor to the Linguistics & Etymology forum who generously carried out some research. The contributor came up with the following conclusions;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidu
Actually Cashel does come from the Latin Castellum. The Eóganachta who built Cashel were a Gaulish tribe who originally didn't speak Irish. They named Cashel after the Roman Castellum which they would have seen in France.In addition to this I should also say there are a few places in Munster with Gaulish or Latin names due to the migration of the Eóganachta.

I've consulted a few books and the old Dindshenchas and slowburner's Kilcashel means "Church of the Castellum", coming from the Latin.

[patwicklow]

Originally Posted by slowburner

Can anyone point me towards a source where I might be able to research possible changes in the size of townlands. Even better, is there any way that I can research the establishment of present day townland boundaries?
The reason I need to follow this up is that the adjacent townland to Tigroney is Kilcashel and after a discussion with a scholarly contributor to the Linguistics & Etymology forum who generously carried out some research. The contributor came up with the following conclusions;

Its all very interesting wish i could help more. here is a link dont know if it will be any good but theres local history forum on it.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/350976561824/

[Manach]

Offhand I reminder that a book was published supporting the notion of a Roman present in Ireland, based on the primary source evidence of Roman silver coins found in SE Ireland.
Personally I think it was a merchant post instead of an army post, because any such military incursion would have been hearlded from one end of the empire to the other.

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by Manach

Offhand I reminder that a book was published supporting the notion of a Roman present in Ireland, based on the primary source evidence of Roman silver coins found in SE Ireland.
Personally I think it was a merchant post instead of an army post, because any such military incursion would have been hearlded from one end of the empire to the other.

It would be great if you could remember the title of the book or where the coins were found.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

Slowburner - Not sure what you are asking exactly here - Palladius was a Christian missionary sent by the Pope and there were Christian missionaries prior to Patrick's time and after.

Patrick was in Ulster really and wasn't he involved in some scandal involving property and women. Declan in Ardmore in Waterford was of the Deisi and a contemporary of Patricks.I cant imagine them getting around much and you do not encounter Patrick in the south.

Where do you go with pre history Wicklow or is it mentioned by the Romans at all.

What is its proximity to nearest roman settlements.

How did the trading links work ??

[gbee]

It is known that the Romans sent out scouts and small exploratory forces.

Presumably based on these explorations they decided not to send any expeditionary force to Hibernia ~ Roman remains and evidence is only really available form these large forces ~ even so, some of the largest garrisons in England have almost totally disappeared and their rediscovery in recent years was from following reports like yours.

I think we can be confident that the Romans did not succeed in invading Ireland, not so confident that they did not attempt so or sent exploratory forces in preparation of such.

[P. Breathnach]

I suggest that we should treat with caution the existence of some place-names that seem to have Latin roots.

First, because the roots seem to be Latin, rather than that it is established that they actually are.

Second, because the people of ancient Ireland might have been the greatest borrowers of language any place, any time. They (we?) adopted a Celtic language and culture without being genetically a Celtic people. So what do a few Latinate words signify in that vast sea of borrowing?

People everywhere notice outsiders or people that are in some way different. One person who originated (or even lived temporarily) in any part of the Roman Empire could lead to a placename that suggests a Roman connection.