Irish Independent Investigation Reveals!

diamondtooth

Front page news of Saturday (15th Jan) Irish Independent reveals that an investigation has found that our Taoiseach Enda Kenny owns:

An apartment in Dublin (imagine he has somewhere to live in the Capital)
A house in Mayo (imagine he has a house where he is from)
An office in Mayo
And a field at his parents house in Mayo

How the f*ck is this front page news :eek:
After all the crap Bertie Aherne got away with, who cares if Enda Kenny owns a bloody field. Have we such short term memories, that now its suddenly front page news that our Taoiseach owns a field in Mayo that we didn't all know about.

El Weirdo

Is Alison back?

Biggins

Not bad for a school teacher!

Pin_Cushion

"Muppet Who Became Taoiseach By Accident Owns More Than His Lunch" would have had a nicer ring to it.

RickRoll

El Weirdo wrote: »

Is Alison back?

Who the fuck is Alison?

Spread

I suspect there's more to come. Setting a little trap?

later12

"Bull" McCabe: Why're you interfering, Father? This is none of the Church's business.
Father Doran: It's the Widow's field. She has the right to sell it.
"Bull" McCabe: No. It's my field. It's my child. I nursed it. I nourished it. I saw to its every want. I dug the rocks out of it with my bare hands and I made a living thing of it! My only want is that green grass, that lovely green grass, and you want to take it away from me, and in the sight of God I can't let you do that!
Father Doran: Can't you find another field?
"Bull" McCabe: Another field? Another field? Jesus, you're as foreign here as any Yank. Another field? Are you blind? Those hands, do you see those hands? Those rocks! It was a dead thing! Don't you understand?
Father Doran: This is the Widow's field. That's the law.

El Weirdo

RickRoll wrote: »

Who the fuck is Alison?

I don't know why she's leaving or where she's gonna go...

diamondtooth

Pin_Cushion wrote: »

"Muppet Who Became Taoiseach By Accident Owns More Than His Lunch" would have had a nicer ring to it.

Its hardly an accident if the public voted for him.

Anyway I am not a huge Enda fan. I just don't understand how it is front page news that he owns an office and a field. Who cares? I don't even understand the point of the story.

Liam Byrne

diamondtooth wrote: »

Front page news of Saturday (15th Jan) Irish Independent reveals that an investigation has found that our Taoiseach Enda Kenny owns:

An apartment in Dublin (imagine he has somewhere to live in the Capital)
A house in Mayo (imagine he has a house where he is from)
An office in Mayo
And a field at his parents house in Mayo

How the f*ck is this front page news :eek:
After all the crap Bertie Aherne got away with, who cares if Enda Kenny owns a bloody field. Have we such short term memories, that now its suddenly front page news that our Taoiseach owns a field in Mayo that we didn't all know about.

Indo trying to deflect some of the **** from Mahon methinks.

gurramok

The Indo investigating, that is a headline story in itself!

ArtSmart

diamondtooth wrote: »

Front page news of Saturday (15th Jan) Irish Independent reveals that an investigation has found that our Taoiseach Enda Kenny owns:

An apartment in Dublin (imagine he has somewhere to live in the Capital)
A house in Mayo (imagine he has a house where he is from)
An office in Mayo
And a field at his parents house in Mayo

How the f*ck is this front page news :eek:
After all the crap Bertie Aherne got away with, who cares if Enda Kenny owns a bloody field. Have we such short term memories, that now its suddenly front page news that our Taoiseach owns a field in Mayo that we didn't all know about.

yeah, seen that today (the headline, it's a pure piece of tabloid now, so dont read it any more)

strange stuff. the indo could be gone is a year or two if it keeps that up. unless it goes full tabloid with some topless girls in and a better sport/ racing page. -it really is losing its identity

bleg

I played GAA and now I'm taoiseach u mad?

CiaranMT

TBH I think the fact that this is the only thread on the story in AH or Politics shows that many people didn't pay attention to that story today.

What a complete waste of print space.

InkSlinger67

I don't see a problem with this. It's not like there's a daily TV ad running asking to "Sponsor a Taoiseach today".

He's still a cnut but he's allowed own a few properties.

Pin_Cushion

diamondtooth wrote: »

Its hardly an accident if the public voted for him.

Yeah not being in Fianna Fail done wonders for him.

patwicklow

Well i hope hes paying his taxes on the houses and the bog he owns

diamondtooth

All I am saying is its pathetic that it is now front page news to say that the Taoiseach owns a house in Dublin and one in Mayo.

Regardless of whether people like him or not, what do they expect? Do they expect him to live on the street or something? And its hardly too extravagant to own a field. One of the stupidest front page stories I have seen in a long time.

And did some journalist actually get paid to write that! Thats the disgrace in the whole piece.

Biggins

diamondtooth wrote: »

All I am saying is its pathetic that it is now front page news to say that the Taoiseach owns a house in Dublin and one in Mayo.

Regardless of whether people like him or not, what do they expect? Do they expect him to live on the street or something? And its hardly too extravagant to own a field. One of the stupidest front page stories I have seen in a long time.

And did some journalist actually get paid to write that! Thats the disgrace in the whole piece.

I'm not a fan of Enda but if a paper can be that petty and possibly vindictive, its a sad day for good investigation reporting in Ireland.

Liam Byrne

CiaranMT wrote: »

TBH I think the fact that this is the only thread on the story in AH or Politics shows that many people didn't pay attention to that story today.

What a complete waste of print space.

Probably indicative of the Indo's reach at this stage, which is unsurprising given the tripe they print.

Father Damo

ArtSmart wrote: »

yeah, seen that today (the headline, it's a pure piece of tabloid now, so dont read it any more)

strange stuff. the indo could be gone is a year or two if it keeps that up. unless it goes full tabloid with some topless girls in and a better sport/ racing page. -it really is losing its identity

What identity? Its been a rag for at least 7 years from memory. And the Sindo has always been a joke.

Einhard

diamondtooth wrote: »

Front page news of Saturday (15th Jan) Irish Independent reveals that an investigation has found that our Taoiseach Enda Kenny owns:

An apartment in Dublin (imagine he has somewhere to live in the Capital)
A house in Mayo (imagine he has a house where he is from)
An office in Mayo
And a field at his parents house in Mayo

How the f*ck is this front page news :eek:
After all the crap Bertie Aherne got away with, who cares if Enda Kenny owns a bloody field. Have we such short term memories, that now its suddenly front page news that our Taoiseach owns a field in Mayo that we didn't all know about.

Did you actually read the article? The point wasn't so much that he owned a few properties, but that the laws which supposedly require our elected representatives to list their assets, have such large loopholes that Kenny didn't have to declare his properties. Considering the history of political corruption we've had in this country, and that these laws were designed, in part, to reduce this through increased transparency, I'd say that such oversights in the law are worth reporting upon.

EDIT: Has anyone condemning the Indo actually read the story? It's a reasonable piece, and ficuses on the fact that he didn't have to declare his assets despite legislation which allegedly ensures transparency, not on the fact that he has a few property.

mal1

Einhard wrote: »

Did you actually read the article? The point wasn't so much that he owned a few properties, but that the laws which supposedly require our elected representatives to list their assets, have such large loopholes that Kenny didn't have to declare his properties. Considering the history of political corruption we've had in this country, and that these laws were designed, in part, to reduce this through increased transparency, I'd say that such oversights in the law are worth reporting upon.

Even so, hardly front page for a sunday paper. I think that's the point.

mikemac1

The Irish Independent used to be a good paper

Well back in the nineties it was

I don't know what caused it to change

ascanbe

Biggins wrote: »

I'm not a fan of Enda but if a paper can be that petty and possibly vindictive, its a sad day for good investigation reporting in Ireland.

Good investigative journalism in Ireland died last week when Mary Raftery passed away, as far as i can see.
It's only been conspicuous by its absence in the last few years, sadly, and, given what's going on in this country, it's very badly needed.

CiaranMT

Einhard wrote: »

Did you actually read the article? The point wasn't so much that he owned a few properties, but that the laws which supposedly require our elected representatives to list their assets, have such large loopholes that Kenny didn't have to declare his properties. Considering the history of political corruption we've had in this country, and that these laws were designed, in part, to reduce this through increased transparency, I'd say that such oversights in the law are worth reporting upon.

EDIT: Has anyone condemning the Indo actually read the story? It's a reasonable piece, and ficuses on the fact that he didn't have to declare his assets despite legislation which allegedly ensures transparency, not on the fact that he has a few property.

Be that as it may, it's not as if he secretly owns an island or something. A home house, a house in Dublin and a bit of land not 'being made public' doesn't warrant front page coverage.

At any rate, the piece is by Fionnan Sheahan, for those who were interested.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

Did you actually read the article? The point wasn't so much that he owned a few properties, but that the laws which supposedly require our elected representatives to list their assets, have such large loopholes that Kenny didn't have to declare his properties. Considering the history of political corruption we've had in this country, and that these laws were designed, in part, to reduce this through increased transparency, I'd say that such oversights in the law are worth reporting upon.

EDIT: Has anyone condemning the Indo actually read the story? It's a reasonable piece, and ficuses on the fact that he didn't have to declare his assets despite legislation which allegedly ensures transparency, not on the fact that he has a few property.

Personally, unless such properties, etc are possibly a conflict with any area of a person duties, they shouldn't feel that everything they own should be up for scrutiny publicly.
Granted, if they are involved in areas that by secondary nature, by indirect family or friends, are connected to something they are doing in office, they should supply all such info to a department somewhere in capital to ensure no laws might be broken and conflicts might occur which would impede a decision or sway one - but for whole public consumption otherwise, just because some people (not all!) want to be nosey, that shouldn't justify every person to have expose everything they possess of substantial nature.

Hell, the kidnappers of the world would have a field day at looking up such listings!
"Ok' who makes up a good victim this year!"

...Its JUST a point of further consideration.

gsxr1

There must be more important stuff to report.

Einhard

mal1 wrote: »

Even so, hardly front page for a sunday paper. I think that's the point.

I'd beg to differ. I think the fact that legislation which was supposed to increase transparency re the assets of our parliamentarians has such a gaping loophole is highly newsworthy, especially considering our history of political corruption. I don't care what Kenny owns per se; I do care that legislation through which members allegedly declare their assets doesn't cover such significant properties and lands.

CiaranMT wrote: »

Be that as it may, it's not as if he secretly owns an island or something. A home house, a house in Dublin and a bit of land not 'being made public' doesn't warrant front page coverage.

At any rate, the piece is by Fionnan Sheahan, for those who were interested.

You're not getting it. Kenny's property portfolio wasn't the story. It was the fact that he didn't have to disclose it under legislation which purportedly meant that such disclosures were necessary.

Biggins wrote: »

Personally, unless such properties, etc are possibly a conflict with any area of a person duties, they shouldn't feel that everything they own should be up for scrutiny publicly.

And who judges whether they are in conflict if they don't have to publish such information. I have to say I'm surprised Biggins. I had imagined that you would be calling for full transparency when it comes to public representatives and their interests outside politics.

Granted, if they are involved in areas that by secondary nature, by indirect family or friends, are connected to something they are doing in office, they should supply all such info to a department somewhere in capital to ensure no laws might be broken and conflicts might occur which would impede a decision or sway one - but for whole public consumption otherwise, just because some people (not all!) want to be nosey, that shouldn't justify every person to have expose everything they possess of substantial nature.

The idea of the legislation is to promote transparency amongst our public representatives, a concept which was sorely lacking until recently, and which, from the article, seems to be somewhat lacking even today.

And yet people seem ok with it simply because they want to have a go at the Irish Independent. Strikes me as odd.

Hell, the kidnappers of the world would have a field day at looking up such listings!
"Ok' who makes up a good victim this year!"

...Its JUST a point of further consideration.

This isn't Mexico Biggins. We don't exactly have abduction gangs roaming the streets, and if we did, it's fairly easy to identify who has money and who doesn't. Further, abducting sitting members of parliament would be a very bad idea for any criminal gang.

paddy147

Every politician has secrets that they dont want to reveal or to be revealed.

They all have somethng to hide.

Oh since FG got into power,County Mayo has had the most amount of grants approved and awarded,out of all the counties in Ireland.

Doesnt a certain political man named Enda hail from County Mayo aswell?

How utterly amazing is that then?

1+1=......:pac::pac:

Zebra3

diamondtooth wrote: »

Its hardly an accident if the public voted for him.

Morons in Mayo voted for him to be a TD.

FG and Labour TDs elected him as taoiseach.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

And who judges whether they are in conflict if they don't have to publish such information. I have to say I'm surprised Biggins. I had imagined that you would be calling for full transparency when it comes to public representatives and their interests outside politics.

O' I do.
...But does the press have to know about every bit of land that a family might have been left to them?
For example - and this is ONLY an example - what if Enda or someone got that land by marriage?
Will a paper with its on ageanda mention this or just state "He owns it!"
Now on first impressions some might read the paper and think "O' he might be loaded and getting money from somewhere we don't know about!"
Such thinking could adversely effect a good person, into one of poor (and possibly wrong) light.

There is already a department that lists records of such things where TD's shave already informed/listed their business interests, etc.
(Now if the persons involved have been totally honest - thats another thing! THAT should be exposed if they lied or its clear they withheld such data!)
See here for example for some basic stuff that can be found out by the public alone: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CNq4xtwH&key=0ArtXDGF50fODdFpKMXk1VHE0VFVlcmhYUFlfQmpsX2c&hl=en&authkey=CNq4xtwH#gid=0

The idea of the legislation is to promote transparency amongst our public representatives, a concept which was sorely lacking until recently, and which, from the article, seems to be somewhat lacking even today.

And yet people seem ok with it simply because they want to have a go at the Irish Independent. Strikes me as odd.

Personally speaking, the piece could be badly written and can be construed wrong in its aim.

This isn't Mexico Biggins. We don't exactly have abduction gangs roaming the streets, and if we did, it's fairly easy to identify who has money and who doesn't. Further, abducting sitting members of parliament would be a very bad idea for any criminal gang.

Your right - and thankfully so.
Lord knows, I would hated to have to kidnapp Jackie Healy Rea.
Feeding him which being captured would be a nightmare in itself!

Zebra3

Biggins,

Regardless of how Kenny or any other TD came about any assets, they should be declared so the public (and journos) can see that the country is being run in a transparent manner.

If Kenny or anyone other politican doesn't like it, they can leave politics and due to their huge talents, no doubt get an equally well paid job in the private sector.*

We've already seen Kenny break the rules to ensure his mate got a well piad handy number that we have to foot the bill for. :mad::mad::mad:

* :rolleyes:

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

O' I do.
...But does the press have to know about every bit of land that a family might have been left to them?
For example - and this is ONLY an example - what if Enda or someone got that land by marriage?
Will a paper with its on ageanda mention this or just state "He owns it!"
Now on first impressions some might read the paper and think "O' he might be loaded and getting money from somewhere we don't know about!"
Such thinking could adversely effect a good person, into one of poor (and possibly wrong) light.

If their interests aren't declared to the public, then how can it be known how they got their property- whether it was legitimate (as I've no doubt is the case with Kenny), or the procedds of graft (as, say, with Haughey and his ilk). If politicians have nothing to hide then they have nothing to hide and should publish their interests, as we were led to believe was the purpose of the legislation.

If anything, the Indo has done some service today by highlighting this anomoly. And yet it's criticised and condemned. I know that it's fashionable in these parts to have a go at that paper, but this strikes me as absurd.

Liam Byrne

Zebra3 wrote: »

diamondtooth wrote: »

Its hardly an accident if the public voted for him.

Morons in Mayo voted for him to be a TD.

FG and Labour TDs elected him as taoiseach.

Hardly their fault that the standard required for the past 15 years was so low, now was it?

I'm beginning to severely dislike Kenny, but compared to the 2 most recent Taoisigh he's absolutely brilliant!

Biggins

Zebra3 wrote: »

Biggins,

Regardless of how Kenny or any other TD came about any assets, they should be declared so the public (and journos) can see that the country is being run in a transparent manner.

If Kenny or anyone other politican doesn't like it, they can leave politics and due to their huge talents, no doubt get an equally well paid job in the private sector.*

We've already seen Kenny break the rules to ensure his mate got a well piad handy number that we have to foot the bill for. :mad::mad::mad:

* :rolleyes:

Again, I agree.
Kenny alone has done many things questionable.
Don't get me wrong. I DO believe in FULL and honest transparency.
I do feel myself that not EVERYthing should be made for public consumption.
If there is an independent body which knows about such things and/or is able to further investigate such things if they have their own suspicions, I do (personally) feel that the right of an individual to a modicum of privacy should not dismissed either.
I'm not arguing against transparency, I'm just also playing devils advocate and also mentioning the rights of the individual to some privacy too - lest certain part so the media might jump on such things and additionally spin them wrongly for example to pursue their own agenda.
...And I'm not just talking about this Indo article when I say the last bit.

Short version: a delicate balance might have to be struck?

If their interests aren't declared to the public, then how can it be known how they got their property- whether it was legitimate (as I've no doubt is the case with Kenny), or the procedds of graft (as, say, with Haughey and his ilk).

Well there are ways already to find out what the interests are of a TD, they, the public might be interested in.
TD's already do have to state what their business interests are in - they just don't do the equivalent of sticking an advert in a paper.

If politicians have nothing to hide then they have nothing to hide and should publish their interests...

No argument there.

If anything, the Indo has done some service today by highlighting this anomoly. And yet it's criticised and condemned. I know that it's fashionable in these parts to have a go at that paper, but this strikes me as absurd.

You could be right but others here are also judging the article based on the prior reputation of the Indo' - and it ain't good with a lot of people.
The Indo's prior stuff and attitude/assumed agenda direction might be just coming back to haunt them?
They partly reaping previously what they sowed?

Shay Vader

It's not as if he owns a mansion in Kinsealy with 40 acres of land and a wardrobe full Italian shirts and ties.I'm gonna go out on a limb and say (deep breath) he 's doing a good job. The Indo has been a rag for the guts of ten years thanks to dodgy reporting on Iraq, FF TD's and their secretaries/translators etc etc.

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

TD's already do have to state what their business interests are in - they just don't to the equivalent of sticking an advert in a paper.

The point is, they don't. That's what the article has exposed, and which people are condemning it for.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

The point is, they don't. That's what the article has exposed, and which people are condemning it for.

Should they stick everything in a paper?
Which one? All of them or just one?
To do so could be quite costly?

Apologies if I come across as argumentative - I'm JUST playing (again) devils advocate here.

Your making good points!

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

Should they stick everything in a paper?
Which one? All of them or just one?
To do so could be quite costly?

Apologies if I come across as argumentative - I'm JUST playing (again) devils advocate here.

Your making good points!

They don't have to stick them in the paper. They simply have to declare their assets and interests on the Register of Members' Interests. Except, according to the article, there's an awful lot that they don't actually have to declare. The Indo did a service in pointing this anomoly out. And yet they're being condemned for it.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

They don't have to stick them in the paper. They simply have to declare their assets and interests on the Register of Members' Interests. Except, according to the article, there's an awful lot that they don't actually have to declare. The Indo did a service in pointing this anomoly out. And yet they're being condemned for it.

Your right in that such things should be declared in the right way and to the appropriate place.

I haven't seen the full article so don't know its full wording yet but you mention that "...there's an awful lot that they don't actually have to declare."
Again you could be right in that its an area that might need to be looked at.

People though (I suspect) feel the Indo' lines itself up sometimes for some criticism and doubt of their intentions, given some of its previous pro FF stances and just finding possible any excuse (under the guise of "doing the right thing") to just knock any political opposition?

Its just a question...

Spread

It deflects the merde from Bev 'Necklikeajockeysbollox' Flynn. A Taoiseach and President from the Wesht? Simultaneously? Seriously? It's no longer asleep. Yay!

Zebra3

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm beginning to severely dislike Kenny, but compared to the 2 most recent Taoisigh he's absolutely brilliant!

Shay Vader wrote: »

It's not as if he owns a mansion in Kinsealy with 40 acres of land and a wardrobe full Italian shirts and ties.I'm gonna go out on a limb and say (deep breath) he 's doing a good job.

Are you two serious?

He's continuing with the failed policies of FF, ensuring those at the bottom of society take the hit for the gambling losses of the elite, and all the while ensured the gravy train keeps running for the politicans and their mates.

syklops

Zebra3 wrote: »

Are you two serious?

He's continuing with the failed policies of FF, ensuring those at the bottom of society take the hit for the gambling losses of the elite, and all the while ensured the gravy train keeps running for the politicans and their mates.

What do you suggest?

OP needs to cry more.

Biggins

By the way, here is another recent Indo piece where in this article they do possibly raise the question "where is our money going to?"

See: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/senators-in-storm-over-23000-leader-perk-2988053.html

..But then at the end of the article they eventually finish up with FF getting the last dig in?
I DON'T question FF and their right to ask these questions - just by coincidence, once again the Indo is just siding with anything possibly currently anti-FG or others but FF ?

later12

mikemac1 wrote: »

Well back in the nineties it was

I don't know what caused it to change

I'm not quite sure that it became less 'Indo' than that we became more 'Irish Times'.

Some would say that up until recently, Irish society was happy to swallow naval gazing, inbred, nationalistic philosophy on a pretty widespread basis. In fact, I would argue it is ongoing in some quarters.

Liam Byrne

Biggins wrote: »

By the way, here is another recent Indo piece where in this article they do possibly raise the question "where is our money going to?"

See: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/senators-in-storm-over-23000-leader-perk-2988053.html

..But then at the end of the article they eventually finish up with FF getting the last dig in?
I DON'T question FF and their right to ask these questions - just by coincidence, once again the Indo is just siding with anything possibly currently anti-FF ?

Do you mean anti-FG ?

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Do you mean anti-FG ?

Cheers - my error corrected.

Liam Byrne

Sean Fleming, Fianna Fail's public spending spokesman, questioned the payments at yesterday's Dail Public Accounts Committee (PAC) hearing and said they had to reformed.
"These payments are unvouched, untaxed," the Laois-Offaly TD said. "These payments should be vouched, independently audited and lodged with the SIPO. We need to ensure politics is open and transparent."

This is the exact reason why FF have no credibility - they were in power for years, did nothing about these things, actively encouraged, condoned, facilitated and excused every dodgy and unwarranted payment under the sun (whether out of our pockets to Callely or out of unknown pockets to Ahern) and NOW they pretend that they're in favour of having them fixed, using it just to score a cheap political shot rather than any drive to improve the country.

We need to get rid of all aspects of this "love of the game of politics" and get some decent people in with an interest in getting things fixed.

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

This is the exact reason why FF have no credibility - they were in power for years, did nothing about these things, actively encouraged, condoned, facilitated and excused every dodgy and unwarranted payment under the sun (whether out of our pockets to Callely or out of unknown pockets to Ahern) and NOW they pretend that they're in favour of having them fixed, using it just to score a cheap political shot rather than any drive to improve the country.

We need to get rid of all aspects of this "love of the game of politics" and get some decent people in with an interest in getting things fixed.

I read the article and then wondered (honestly)...

In the previous years, whom was it anyway that introduce such payments?
Given that out of 26+ years of government, 23+ was FF, the odds are against them that they can't say "Well we didn't bring these payments in in the first place" - or - as Liam says, why didn't they, while they were in power for all those long years actually do anything about such issues - after all, they had long enough to do it!