The Waco Seige

Paully D

I've just been watching this excellent documentary by Channel 4 about the Waco Seige:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxt1LKt-G0g&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Dinside%2Bwaco%2Bdocumentary%26oq%3Dinside%2Bwaco%26aq%3D1%26aqi%3Dg2%26aql%3D%26gs_sm%3De%26gs_upl%3D806l2726l0l4156l11l10l0l1l1l0l274l1525l2.4.3l9l0&has_verified=1

I was only young at the time, so can't remember anything about it at all, and only actually heard of it for the first time years ago in religion class in secondary school.

What was the reaction over here in Ireland to this event?

Some further reading about it in the link below if anyone's interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

John Doe1

Everyone was totally stoked

Biggins

What was the reaction over here in Ireland to this event?

At the time, it was pretty muted.
A bit of surprise that it turned out as it did but then some just said "Aaa well, that America for you" or words to that effect.

stupidusername

What annoys me about that whole thing is everyone that died is still considered a suicide even though apparently most were forced to drink the drinks with the cyanide in it or injected with it. That's not mass suicide

Guill

Waco, makes me laugh everytime:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ITqS2uTPD4

Mr.Biscuits

Thought this thread was about the time the feds raided Neverland.

Biggins

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Thought this thread was about the time the feds raided Neverland.

That didn't Pan out well either!

mikemac1

stupidusername wrote: »

What annoys me about that whole thing is everyone that died is still considered a suicide even though apparently most were forced to drink the drinks with the cyanide in it or injected with it. That's not mass suicide

Was that another incident?

Jim Jones and drinking the koolaid

Biggins

mikemac1 wrote: »

Was that another incident?

Jim Jones and drinking the koolaid

Jonestown massacre - I remember it well.
Sickening at the time to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

In all, 918 people died, including 276 children.

LighterGuy

I aswell was too to young remember anything about Waco when it happened.

I watched a movie about it a few years ago tho. I remember thinking to myself how did people follow him? ... Like always people to get sucked in to something crazy (being navie, stupid and mad) But when He (korash) started to have sex with every women in the compound. Surely even the most naive of people would of realised what was going on.

But thanks for linking the documentary op Im going to watch it. When I watched that movie a few years ago I was like 20 or something. I'm sure my maturity now will make me realise what really went on.


***edit***
am I the only one having problems loading the video?

Paully D

LighterGuy wrote: »

***edit***
am I the only one having problems loading the video?

I'm having trouble with it now too. It must be a problem with YouTube itself because I just watched the whole thing an hour ago no problem at all. I'm sure it will work again soon.

44leto

My reaction was simple, you arm enough people, brain wash them and they allow themselves to be stupidtied, THEN they take on the American state they deserve whatever happened next.

RIP

I have not seen the doco but I bet its about American civil power gone mad, when it really hadn't, you move to disarm any group threatening a democracy, as we all know., with the past IRA and present drug gang KUNTs.

amacachi

I'm surprised you know what the reaction was like Biggins, I just naturally assumed you would have been involved in the incident in some crucial way.

Chuck Stone

44leto wrote: »

My reaction was simple, you arm enough people, brain wash them and they allow themselves to be stupidtied, THEN they take on the American state they deserve whatever happened next.

So challenge the state and you deserve to die? **** that for a game of soldiers.

Bill Hicks says it better than I ever could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywDAUzkHybU

M5

Paully D wrote: »

I've just been watching this excellent documentary by Channel 4 about the Waco Seige:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxt1LKt-G0g&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Dinside%2Bwaco%2Bdocumentary%26oq%3Dinside%2Bwaco%26aq%3D1%26aqi%3Dg2%26aql%3D%26gs_sm%3De%26gs_upl%3D806l2726l0l4156l11l10l0l1l1l0l274l1525l2.4.3l9l0&has_verified=1

I was only young at the time, so can't remember anything about it at all, and only actually heard of it for the first time years ago in religion class in secondary school.

What was the reaction over here in Ireland to this event?

Some further reading about it in the link below if anyone's interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

Cant watch it here in the USA, land of the free :rolleyes:

Gyalist

Whoa, just realised that I know people who died at Jonestown and Waco.

Biggins

amacachi wrote: »

I'm surprised you know what the reaction was like Biggins, I just naturally assumed you would have been involved in the incident in some crucial way.

Yea, it was me that rang the cops to complain about the noise of party they were having over there!
Damn! I won't be ringing them again! Kept me awake all night with their fireworks to boot!

Plazaman

I remember watching it on the telly in a pub, it was on in the background and no one was really paying any attention. It was only when it showed an FBI guy in full riot gear getting shot and falling off a roof that people started to go, wait this isn't a film and looks very serious. Followed it for about an hour then had to go get pished.

If ever I join a cult, that's the type of one I want to be in with guns and shít. Knowing my luck, I'd probably fork over the life savings and then be told "Welcome to the fluffy bunny cult, here's your free rabbit".

Dyr

Biggins wrote: »

Jonestown massacre - I remember it well.
Sickening at the time to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

The recording of them all having the meeting and commiting suicide/murder is up online. Pretty harrowing stuff. Jim Jones opening lines always stuck in my head: "how very much I have loved you/How very much I have tried my best to give you the good life" always stuck in my head.

R P McMurphy

44leto wrote: »

My reaction was simple, you arm enough people, brain wash them and they allow themselves to be stupidtied, THEN they take on the American state they deserve whatever happened next.

RIP

I have not seen the doco but I bet its about American civil power gone mad, when it really hadn't, you move to disarm any group threatening a democracy, as we all know., with the past IRA and present drug gang KUNTs.

What sycophantic guff

Ellis Dee

I remember it very well, having watched it partly live on TV. Can't say I have much of a problem with religious whack jobs committing mass suicide, but it's a pity that they so often cause the deaths of little children as well.:):)

Wossack

siege*

Blazer

Sean Moncrieff had the original hostage negotiator on his show a few months back.
Very interesting and he was still pretty upset at how things turned out.
Basically he had established a line of communication and had a good rapport with them and was getting hostages such as children set free but the US government wanted a faster resolution so replaced him after a few days.
We all know what happened after that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

Biggins

Bambi wrote: »

The recording of them all having the meeting and commiting suicide/murder is up online. Pretty harrowing stuff. Jim Jones opening lines always stuck in my head: "how very much I have loved you/How very much I have tried my best to give you the good life" always stuck in my head.

I seen it close to the time it happened.
I find now that I cannot watch it any more.
Its too harrowing and I'm getting more soft and sentimental as I get older and see my own kids alive and healthy.
It was shocking video at the time - and still is now.
So many deaths, including kids just laying about the grounds - and SO unnecessary.

Benny_Cake

Biggins wrote: »

Bambi wrote: »

The recording of them all having the meeting and commiting suicide/murder is up online. Pretty harrowing stuff. Jim Jones opening lines always stuck in my head: "how very much I have loved you/How very much I have tried my best to give you the good life" always stuck in my head.

I seen it close to the time it happened.
I find now that I cannot watch it any more.
Its too harrowing and I'm getting more soft and sentimental as I get older and see my own kids alive and healthy.
It was shocking video at the time - and still is now.
So many deaths, including kids just laying about the grounds - and SO unnecessary.

Jim Jones was a true sociopath - a hardline communist and atheist who thought that the best way to sell his political views to the American public was by posing as a religious leader. I believe he tried to get the Peoples Temple relocated to the Soviet Union prior to the massacre, not surprising that the Soviet government was less than enthusiastic about the idea. It's also quite shocking how otherwise sensible political figures, including the great Harvey Milk, we're taken in by this charlatan.

As for Waco, I was 13 at the time, and my memory of the reaction is much as Biggins said "Those crazy Americans", a stupid reaction really, as such events are quite rare. I do remember that a made for TV movie was brought out within a few weeks of the event, which was pretty disgusting I thought. There is no doubt that some mistakes were made by the authorities, which was used as an example of a dictatorial government by various nutjobs on the extreme right. All such a pointless waste.

Gyalist

I lived less than 100 yards from the Peoples Temple HQ in Guyana. I was there when all this happened. I know many people who were caught up and injured in the shooting at the airstrip. I'm a friend of the officer who led the first group of GDF troops who went to Jonestown.

A few days after it happened my younger brother was in hospital and in the room next door was a teenager named Tommy Bogue who was one of the few who survived Jonestown. He was in hospital with gunshot wounds. I've always wondered what became of him.

At the time no one really had a clue of the magnitude of what had happened. Guyana is a large country with a very small population and at the time communications links were poor. It was only when hundreds of journalists from all over the world descended on the country did most people there start to understand the significance of what had happened. Before that , most people didn't care much as it was only Americans involved. The sight of hundreds of bodybags being loaded on to giant C-130 Hercules to be flown back to Dover AFB changed all that.

I had a brush with the Branch Davidians when I was a student in the UK (though I don't recall meeting David Koresh). I know some people who went to Waco and died there.

Susannahmia

stupidusername wrote: »

What annoys me about that whole thing is everyone that died is still considered a suicide even though apparently most were forced to drink the drinks with the cyanide in it or injected with it. That's not mass suicide

I think you are confusing Waco with The Jonestown Massacre. I always get them confused too.

Dotrel

Biggins wrote: »

So many deaths, including kids just laying about the grounds - and SO unnecessary.

It's very necessary to perpetuate the idea that you are under state control and that you will will be crushed if you break away or resist.

Paully D

M5 wrote: »

Cant watch it here in the USA, land of the free :rolleyes:

It's still not working here, it's a Channel 4 problem for those over here though as all the videos on their YouTube channel freeze after the first of two advertisements.

RichieC

the wacko seige.. more like..

Wattle

According to some the A.T.F. started the fire.

Paully D

Wattle wrote: »

According to some the A.T.F. started the fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

The government maintains the fires were deliberately started by Davidians. Davidian survivors maintain the fires were accidentally or deliberately started by the tank assault.

It was the FBI and not the ATF at that stage though, AFAIK.

From the same source:

FBI surveillance tapes from devices planted in the wall of the building record a man inside the compound saying "Everybody wake up, let's start to pray", then, "Pablo have you poured it yet" ..."Huh" ... "Have you poured it yet"... "in the hallway"... "things are poured, right?" CEV1 receives orders to spray two bottles of tear gas into left corner of building

FBI surveillance tapes record a male Davidian saying, "The fuel has to go all around to get started." Then a second male says, "Well, there are two cans here, if that's poured soon."

FBI surveillance records a meeting starting at 7:30 AM between several unidentified males.

UM: "They got two cans of Coleman fuel down there? Huh?"
UM: "Empty"
UM: "All of it?"

According to the goverment, a series of remarks like "I want a fire (...)", "keep that fire going" and "do you think I could light this soon?" indicate the Davidians have started setting fire to the complex around 11:30. Surviving Davidians testified that Coleman fuel had been poured, and fire experts in Danfort's report agree "without question" that people inside the complex had started multiple accelerated fires.

So from the above it seems the Davidians did pour fuel all over the complex and started the fire.

ClovenHoof

When they were saying "fire" they could of been taking about shooting at the Feds who came to immolate them. As is "fire your guns".

Another thing that always interested me about this event - is how many atheists seem to think they deserved it as they were "religious nuts".

For what it is worth, I worked for a US TV station at the time and we had a crew there and they all stated the fire was started by the ATF and they had their tapes of the event confescated. The only news footage of the attack was from a CNN camera miles away.

It is outright mass murder by a government on a group of people to make an example of them. Practice for Iraq.

Paully D

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is outright mass murder by a government on a group of people to make an example of them. Practice for Iraq.

What do you think should have been done then?

They were breaking the law by stockpiling illegal weapons, and there were allegations of sexual abuse. The authorities attempted to execute a search warrant based on this and were met with a gun battle.

Benny_Cake

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is outright mass murder by a government on a group of people to make an example of them. Practice for Iraq.

I don't doubt that mistakess were made in the final hours of the siege, but that appears to me to be down to poor planning and a degree of incompetence. Why would it be in the interests of a government agency like the FBI to commit "mass murder", had they ended the siege bloodlessly they would have been held as heroes? As for practising for Iraq, they must have known that George W Bush was going to be president one day and that he'd invade Iraq?

ClovenHoof

The allegations of sexual abuse were fabricated. Most of the children had left by the time the buring began. Koresh (whom I am not defending) allowed anyone who wanted to leave to go. Many did.

That does not sound like a crazy suicidal cult leader to me.

rossie1977

Paully D wrote: »

So the Davidians did pour fuel all over the complex and started the fire.

the atfs actions caused the fire, its clear as day on video, the day in question was extremely windy, they punched giant holes all over the building which meant a small fire would burn rapidly out of control in minutes throughout the compound, which it did

firing dozens of flash/bang and pyrotechnique canisters into a wooden structure was insane, never mind one with huge gaping holes in it on a windy day, the atf will never admit they were wrong of course

enfant terrible

M5 wrote: »

Cant watch it here in the USA, land of the free :rolleyes:

Ya the US government must be blocking it :rolleyes:

Da Shins Kelly

The details seem to be up in the air, but it does seem as though the cops had good reason to investigate the premises since David Koresh was keeping illegal weapons and the allegations of sexual abuse. That said, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the cops engaged in some misconduct themselves.

Paully D

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The allegations of sexual abuse were fabricated. Most of the children had left by the time the buring began. Koresh (whom I am not defending) allowed anyone who wanted to leave to go. Many did.

That does not sound like a crazy suicidal cult leader to me.

Fair point.

Some reading about the child abuse allegations for those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

The child abuse and sexual abuse claims have been widely circulated in the press coverage though it is often difficult to separate the purported claims from the evidence.[11] Koresh's doctrine of the House of David[12] did lead to spiritual marriages with both married and single women in the group and with at least one underage girl. The underage girl was Michele Jones, the younger sister of Koresh's legal wife Rachel and the daughter of life-long Davidians Perry and Mary Belle Jones. Koresh took Michele as a spiritual wife when she was thirteen, evidently with the consent of the Joneses. This means Koresh was in violation of state law and could have been prosecuted for statutory rape in Texas. A six-month investigation of child abuse allegations by the Texas Child Protection Services in 1992 failed to turn up any evidence likely because the Davidians concealed the spiritual marriage of Koresh to Michele Jones, assigning a surrogate husband (David Thibodeau), to the girl for the sake of appearances. [13] A second allegation involved an underage girl, Kiri Jewell, who testified in the Congressional hearings on Waco in 1995. She claimed Koresh engaged in improper sexual touching and other behaviors that would have brought sexual assault charges against him. There is no independent confirmation of this incident, however, and Kiri's family was split over whether they believed her story.

Regarding the allegations of child abuse, the evidence is less compelling. In one widely reported incident, ex-members claimed that Koresh became irritated with the cries of his son Cyrus and spanked the child severely for several minutes on three consecutive visits to the child's bedroom. In a second report, Koresh was said to have beaten the eight-month old daughter of another member for approximately forty minutes until the girl's bottom bled. In a third incident, a man involved in a custody battle visited Mt. Carmel and claimed to have seen the beating of a young boy with a stick. [14] Finally, the FBI's justification for forcing an end to the 51 day standoff was predicated on the charge that Koresh was abusing children inside Mount Carmel. In hours following the deadly conflagration, Attorney General Janet Reno told reporters that "We had specific information that babies were being beaten." [15] But FBI Director William Sessions publicly denied the charge and told reporters that they had no such information about child abuse inside the Mount Carmel. [16] A careful examination of the other child abuse charges found the evidence to be weak and ambiguous, casting doubt on the allegations. [17]

The allegations of child abuse stem largely from detractors and ex-members. [18] The 1993 U.S. Department of Justice report cites allegations of child sexual and physical abuse. But despite the merits of the charges, legal scholars point out that the ATF had no legal jurisdiction in the matter of child protection and it appears that these accounts were inserted by the ATF to inflame the case against Koresh. For example, the account of former Branch Davidian Jeannine Bunds is reproduced in the affidavit. She claimed that Koresh had fathered at least fifteen children with various women and that she had personally delivered seven of these children. Bunds also claims that Koresh would annul all marriages of couples who joined the group, had exclusive sexual access to the women, and would also have regular sexual relations with young girls,[19] though some of these charges are clearly exaggerated. [20] There is no question that Koresh had multiple children by different women in the group. His House of David doctrine based on a purported revelation involved the reproduction of 24 children by chosen women in the community. These 24 children were to serve as the ruling elders over the millennium after the return of Christ. In his book, James Tabor states that Koresh acknowledged on a videotape sent out of the compound during the standoff that he had fathered more than 12 children by several "wives."[21] On March 3, 1993, during negotiations to secure the release of the remaining children, Koresh advised the Negotiation Team that: "My children are different than those others," referring to his direct lineage versus those children previously released.

At the time, in Texas, the age of parental consent for a minor to marry was 14, as was the age for consent to engage in sexual relations. In the documentary film, Waco: The Rules of Engagement (long version), Jack Harwell, Sheriff of McLennan County, stated: "You have to have proof to go into court . . . Keep in mind, too, that most of the girls who were involved were at least 14 years old and 14 year olds get married with parental consent. So if their parents were there and letting things happen in the way of sexual activities and what have you with their 14 year old kids, you have common law husbands and wives. Uh, I don’t say that I agree with that and that I approve of it. But at the same time, if parents are there and they’re giving parental consent, we have a problem with that in making a case."

Biggins

If I may throw a side topic out there arising from such incidents as Waco...

At what point does it seem appropriate that law officials should come politely (hopefully) knocking on doors, asking about why Mr Joe Soap or "XXXXX" organisation has one gun or a further 52 handguns, 15 sub-machine guns and 20 rocket launchers?

Should law officials, even as basic as a street cop (or higher) have the right to ask questions without clear justification but with just reason for concern or maybe just puzzlement?

Myself, I think in the public interest, where large sums of weapons are concerned (as in Waco), certainly at some level, appropriate questions should always be asked.
Such questions being asked, being deeper in investigation to a possible increasing number of rumoured or confirmed weaponry.

as125634do

Pigs really messed this up

Capt'n Midnight

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is outright mass murder by a government on a group of people to make an example of them. Practice for Iraq.

Please explain

I don't remember the US military being involved in Waco, they were far too busy in Somalia and soon to be in Bosnia. By then the Persian Gulf War with Iraq was over. The invasion of Kuwait was far in the future and only after lots of stuff in the Balkans and sub saharan Africa.

Krieg

Would love to watch the documentary, damn youtube wont load it.

I only read about the jonestown massacre a couple of months ago when it was part of BBC news features and analysis. I couldnt believe that I never heard of the incident before, really shocking story.

Dyr

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

The details seem to be up in the air, but it does seem as though the cops had good reason to investigate the premises since David Koresh was keeping illegal weapons and the allegations of sexual abuse. That said, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the cops engaged in some misconduct themselves.

The paraphrase bill hicks, there was allegations of sexual abuse against the catholic church but nobody sent bradley tanks into St Patricks Cathedral.

Capt'n Midnight

Bambi wrote: »

The paraphrase bill hicks, there was allegations of sexual abuse against the catholic church but nobody sent bradley tanks into St Patricks Cathedral.

St Patricks Cathedral = National Cathedral of the Church of Ireland (a church of the Anglican communion)


oh and eh , bradley = not a tank

LighterGuy

Another link to video:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/inside-waco/4od

Son Of A Vidic

Plazaman wrote: »

I remember watching it on the telly in a pub, it was on in the background and no one was really paying any attention. It was only when it showed an FBI guy in full riot gear getting shot and falling off a roof that people started to go, wait this isn't a film and looks very serious.

The shooting of the ATF officer on the roof, was one of the enduring and unpleasant images from that day. The ATF commander knew in advance that the Davidians had been tipped off about the raid, yet he still proceeded with the operation. With all surprise lost, four ATF officers died in the initial raid. The next enduring enduring image for me, was the raging inferno being whipped up by the high winds. It all had a fatal inevitability about it, especially with a nut job like Koresh and the private army he had amassed.

Da Shins Kelly

Bambi wrote: »

The paraphrase bill hicks, there was allegations of sexual abuse against the catholic church but nobody sent bradley tanks into St Patricks Cathedral.

Well, they should have done something about it. Just because they didn't on that occasion, doesn't mean they shouldn't have. If there's sexual abuse going on anywhere it should be investigated. Of course what happened at Waco was a tragedy and probably could have been avoided, but I do not believe that David Koresh was a good person. Marrying a 14 year old (even if it's an isolated incident) is not something that should be excused. Like I said, the police are probably guilty of engaging in misconduct, but so is David Koresh. He's not a f*cking martyr.

Jesus Wept

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Jim Jones was a true sociopath - a hardline communist and atheist

Communism and atheism, the calling cards of the sociopath.

Manic Moran

I thought they used CEVs and M88s, not Bradleys. (Just got off my Brad about an hour ago, actually.)

As a frequent user of flash bangs I am reluctant to think they are likely to start a fire. Smoke grenades could, though, if they were used. I don't think tear gas grenades would.