How to avoid the "why aren't you baptizing" nonsense?

lazygal

Expecting baby number one in the summer. We didn't have a church wedding, but did have a humanist service which both families were really pleasantly surprised and moved by (result!). But now my totally lapsed Catholic mother as well as my husband's parents have been starting the "Ah, would you not just have a christening, seems a shame not to have godparents". We do not and will not have one, even though we will have to send our child to a local (excellent) Catholic school if the Educate Together is oversubscribed. What's also annoying us is that my sister in law has had a new baby and the christening will be shortly before our baby is due and has already said how ours will feel felt out, how it won't have godparents to spoil it etc, which is beyond head wrecking even though its disguised as "banter".

Any ideas on fending off the mothers and families from sprinkling the magic water?

28064212

"I don't believe in God"

lazygal

Hasn't stopped the questions I'm afraid!

Beruthiel

Tell them you will be having a naming ceremony instead of baptizing them.
You can no longer opt out of the RC if you decide to become a Moonie later in life, so committing your child to something they had no say in is not right and you won't be making future decisions on what religion they 'might' be interested in.
Straight up honesty is always the best way to go.

28064212

lazygal wrote: »

Hasn't stopped the questions I'm afraid!

It's the answer to ALL the questions:
"Why aren't you baptizing?"
"I don't believe in God"
"Will they not feel left out?"
"I don't believe in God"
"Should you not have godparents?"
"I don't believe in God"
....repeat ad infinitum

Ellis Dee

As they used to say about drugs: "Just say no!":)

It's your child. No one has the right to pressure you into making it a member of a religious cult.:cool:

Penn

lazygal wrote: »

Expecting baby number one in the summer. We didn't have a church wedding, but did have a humanist service which both families were really pleasantly surprised and moved by (result!). But now my totally lapsed Catholic mother as well as my husband's parents have been starting the "Ah, would you not just have a christening, seems a shame not to have godparents". We do not and will not have one, even though we will have to send our child to a local (excellent) Catholic school if the Educate Together is oversubscribed. What's also annoying us is that my sister in law has had a new baby and the christening will be shortly before our baby is due and has already said how ours will feel felt out, how it won't have godparents to spoil it etc, which is beyond head wrecking even though its disguised as "banter".

Any ideas on fending off the mothers and families from sprinkling the magic water?

You can have a naming ceremony or even just a meal and small get-together for some family similar to a christening. As for the godparents, I can only speak for myself, but when the time comes, I would sort of have godparents. As in, I (we) would choose godparents, but (like the majority of godparents), this would just be a title akin to "Superuncle" or "MegaAunt". The godparents wouldn't be involved in raising the child in a faith, but would just be a title for an aunt and uncle. Think about it, have your own godparents ever been interested in your religion when you were growing up, or was your Christmas present from them just a little bigger than the present they gave your siblings?

These days, particularly with a la carte Catholics, Godparents are little more than an aunt or uncle who make sure to remember their godchild's birthday.

There's probably a different term you could use than godparent (when my sister was debating whether or not to make me godfather of her child, I said I'd be fine with it if I was called SuperUncle), but even if you choose not to have godparents or a christening, there's no reason your child should feel left out.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

Expecting baby number one in the summer.

Congratulations! Make sure you've the ET application form filled out and ready to drop in on the way back from the hospital

lazygal wrote: »

my sister in law [...] has already said how ours will feel left out, how it won't have godparents to spoil it etc, which is beyond head wrecking even though its disguised as "banter".

You could try explaining that she's making you feel left out by warning you that you'll be left out, or perhaps more politely, asking her whether you can rely on her support in not making you feel left out.

Either way, what she's said is rather unkind, regardless of how true it is, or might be, or how true or not she wants it to be.

robindch

Penn wrote: »

There's probably a different term you could use than godparent

I used "dogparent" for a while, before settling on "goodparent"

If you want to annoy them a bit choose close friends rather than family members

player101

Im with you on the whole effort of believing in God stuff, but you might want to consider getting your kid baptised for the simple fact that if you are sending them to a catholic school when communion comes around theyre whole class will be off for weeks/ months on end learning and talking about theyre communion and your wont, might make them feel left out? i dont have kids yet so this is purely just me sticking my ore in

Dades

Just say "Because we're not catholic".

If someone asks "But weren't you baptised..?"

Well then your work is done.

frag420

Penn wrote: »

As in, I (we) would choose godparents, but (like the majority of godparents), this would just be a title akin to "Superuncle" or "MegaAunt".

Now this is a cool idea.

Can you imagine the schoolyard in a few years.

"Who is your godfather"??

"I dont have one I have a super-uncle"!!

DO IT DO IT DO IT!!

Galvasean

lazygal wrote: »

What's also annoying us is that my sister in law has had a new baby and the christening will be shortly before our baby is due and has already said how ours will feel felt out,

When having its head dunked into baptismal water the baby wont be thinking, "Oh yay, I'm not being left out!", it will be thinking, "Why the hell am I being put in water? Why are my parents handing me over to a wizard? WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

player101 wrote: »

but you might want to consider getting your kid baptised for the simple fact that if you are sending them to a catholic school when communion comes around theyre whole class will be off for weeks/ months on end learning and talking about theyre communion and your wont, might make them feel left out? i dont have kids yet so this is purely just me sticking my ore in

That's how the RCC has been winning for generations

Sarky

Galvasean wrote: »

When having its head dunked into baptismal water the baby wont be thinking, "Oh yay, I'm not being left out!", it will be thinking, "Why the hell am I being put in water? Why are my parents handing me over to a wizard? WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My parents tell me I shouted something very similar in the church when I saw my little brother getting baptised. I couldn't have been more than 3.

wylo

Ill be honest, its a sad fact that you are giving the child more of an option by letting it be baptized than not letting it be baptized.

If you don't believe in God then a bit of water on a childs head shouldnt mean anything. However it does allow the child to choose later on whether its nonsense or not.

Now, the fair counter argument is that this isnt about God , its about the Church, and thats fair enough, for every child not being baptized there is a loss of power in the church. I guess thats the dilemma.

The way I see it is, Im glad my parents baptized me, because I got to enjoy communion and confirmation. It was nothing to do with religion. It was just a great excuse to get money from relations.

The worst Id to do was endure alot of BS mass sessions as a kid. But you wouldnt have even to do that.

wylo

wylo wrote: »

If you don't believe in God then a bit of water on a childs head shouldnt mean anything. However it does allow the child to choose later on whether its nonsense or not.

Eh no, it doesn't actually. You can't revoke a baptism. You can't ever officially leave the church.
You can get baptised at any stage in your life.


If it doesn't mean anything, then not baptising shouldn't be an issue, and insisting someone get it done despite not believing it is absolutely ridiculous.

wylo

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh no, it doesn't actually. You can't revoke a baptism. You can't ever officially leave the church.
You can get baptised at any stage in your life.


If it doesn't mean anything, then not baptising shouldn't be an issue, and insisting someone get it done despite not believing it is absolutely ridiculous.

why? It doesnt mean anything if you dont believe it. You are closing off options because a child is hardly going to turn around at 7 years old and say "Mammy I want to be baptized so I can get my confirmation."

For me baptism is water on a head, thats all, nothing else, zilch.

I dont even have an interest in revoking my baptism because it only serves the catholics belief.


edit: by the way , I wasnt insisting by any means, I was just saying that baptism is irrelivent but a child has a few more options by going through the bull**** process than it does by not going through it.

Galvasean

wylo wrote: »

For me baptism is water on a head, thats all, nothing else, zilch.

It's also bringing business (and money) to a church you actively dislike and pretending to be something you aren't.

Tonyandthewhale

player101 wrote: »

Im with you on the whole effort of believing in God stuff, but you might want to consider getting your kid baptised for the simple fact that if you are sending them to a catholic school when communion comes around theyre whole class will be off for weeks/ months on end learning and talking about theyre communion and your wont, might make them feel left out? i dont have kids yet so this is purely just me sticking my ore in

I was baptised and had my communion back when I was a nipper. Despite being made a part of the (hugely dull) procedings I still felt a bit left out because I didn't have a huge party after-wards with all my aunts and uncles doling out fifties because my parents (despite not being especially religious) didn't like the idea of commercialising what was supposed to be a religious sacrement.

Meanwhile, my hare krishna classmate got to miss lots of school because there was no point him going in just to learn how to do a communion that he wasn't going to do. He also got a present or money or something from their parents to make up for not getting to have a communion like his classmates. Mr. hare Krishna was the envy of the classwhile the rest of us were nodding off listening to some old priest spout on about god and jesus and all the boys.

You can't predict what's going to make your child feel left out 7 or 8 years down the line or whenever it they do communion these days. Maybe not being a Catholic will make them stand out a bit for a few weeks (not likely to be a big deal although it depends on their classmates and their teacher and all that) or maybe being Catholic will make them hugely envious of non-Catholics.

Thing is, if you get them baptised it's a mark for life while not getting them baptised just means you have to keep them distracted while their classmates are getting their communion and again in sixth class when they're getting confirmed. That's not a big deal, if it's a little girl you have she might not like missing out on the fancy dress but there's no reason why you can't just buy her a fancy dress to play legoes in. If it's a little boy he's probably not even going to notice if you don't make a big deal about it.

wylo

Galvasean wrote: »

It's also bringing business (and money) to a church you actively dislike and pretending to be something you aren't.

well yea you're right there, as I said in my post, if its not about God , and its specifically about the church then thats a fair counter argument.

But if its just about God then really NOT being baptized is no different to BEING baptized only a kids head doesnt get wet.

Standman

So you'd be comfortable with going into a church and having a ceremony for a child who couldnt possibly comprehend what the hell is going on, and then lying through your teeth when you have to make the baptismal promises?

V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.

V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
R. I do.
V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
R. Amen.

wylo

wylo wrote: »

why? It doesnt mean anything if you dont believe it. You are closing off options because a child is hardly going to turn around at 7 years old and say "Mammy I want to be baptized so I can get my confirmation."

At 7, they may be asking can they make their communion and that will mean a baptism. So yes, it is possible. It's happened before.

For me baptism is water on a head, thats all, nothing else, zilch.

It's adding to the numbers in the catholic church so they can claim they're doing better than they are.
It's adding to problem of "why should we have non catholic schools when the kids are all baptised anyway".
it's getting up and lying in front of a church and priest about their religion, insulting them and being a hypocrite.
if you're so interested in options, why don't you suggest they get baptised/equivalent in every other religion as well?

edit: by the way , I wasnt insisting by any means, I was just saying that baptism is irrelivent but a child has a few more options by going through the bull**** process than it does by not going through it.

No it is NOT irrelevant - which is why this thread and even this forum exists - and it gives them fewer options because they cannot leave. You go ask the people who want to convert to religions like judaism when they can't get an official "i've left the catholic church" thing.

Galvasean

I forgot to mention it is also disrespectful to the Church to be a non-believer and lie to them about belief so you can use them as an excuse to have a big after party.

Beruthiel

wylo wrote: »

Im glad my parents baptized me, because I got to enjoy communion and confirmation. It was nothing to do with religion. It was just a great excuse to get money from relations.

So you should sign your child up to a cult that will never allow them to leave for some money?

Tonyandthewhale

wylo wrote: »

For me baptism is water on a head, thats all, nothing else, zilch.

And maybe 18 years down the line the op's child, having got baptised will have the same view and not give a damn. However, maybe s/he will view it as a hateful symbol of indoctrination into a cult with a long history of abuse and oppression. It's impossible to say at this juncture, maybe the op's child will even grow up to be a good catholic glad to have been baptised. The thing is, until the op knows how their child feels about baptism, at least that's how I see it.

Penn

wylo wrote: »

well yea you're right there, as I said in my post, if its not about God , and its specifically about the church then thats a fair counter argument.

But if its just about God then really NOT being baptized is no different to BEING baptized only a kids head doesnt get wet.

But it is different, even if it's just about God. It's about making promises to something you don't believe in, about things you don't agree with, in a ceremony you don't think has any effect whatsoever. You say yourself, it's just a kid's head getting wet. But that's not what it's supposed to be. If you don't believe anything happens other than the kids head getting wet, then there is absolutely no point going through any of it, regardless of your objections to the church numbers etc.

And the fact that the child may be left out when it comes to communion etc is exactly why people who don't believe in God shouldn't have their kids baptised anyway. The fewer kids getting baptised, the fewer occasions that kids will feel left out, and the less influence and control the Church has in schools. Baptising your child because "Ah sure it's the done thing and it's a nice day out" or "Have to get them into a Catholic school because there's no ET ones" just continues the trend of it being the done thing or having to get them baptised to get into the local school.

OP, I'm not saying you shouldn't baptise your child. I'm saying you shouldn't baptise your child if you don't want to

wylo

Beruthiel wrote: »

So you should sign your child up to a cult that will never allow them to leave for some money?

Are you baptized and if so, do you feel you are still being held by the cult that you cant leave?

Galvasean

wylo wrote: »

Are you baptized and if so, do you feel you are still being held by the cult that you cant leave?

Yes. every time David Quinn pulls a statistic based on baptismal records out of his ass. every time someone tells me, "You were baptised so you're still Catholic ha!"

number10a

wylo wrote: »

If you don't believe in God then a bit of water on a childs head shouldnt mean anything. However it does allow the child to choose later on whether its nonsense or not.

The way I see it is, Im glad my parents baptized me, because I got to enjoy communion and confirmation. It was nothing to do with religion. It was just a great excuse to get money from relations.

Going through Communion and Confirmation means going through the faith formation classes in school. You can't show up for the ceremony and not have the classes. Thus, you are creating another little Catholic. No money in the world could get me to do that to my child. The mental torment, anguish, and pain that I went through as a 15/16 year old coming to terms with his sexuality because of the Catholic faith guilt that was bred into me was unbelievable. There were nights when I cried myself to sleep because I thought I was broken, faulty, sinful, evil etc. No child should ever have to go through that be they straight/gay/bi/trans whatever.

My parents had no influence on my Catholic upbringing bar taking me to Mass. They left everything to the school basically. So yes, keeping your child out of Catholic faith formation classes in our State schools is one of the greatest gifts you can give as a parent in Ireland.

wylo

Penn wrote: »

But it is different, even if it's just about God. It's about making promises to something you don't believe in, about things you don't agree with, in a ceremony you don't think has any effect whatsoever. You say yourself, it's just a kid's head getting wet. But that's not what it's supposed to be. If you don't believe anything happens other than the kids head getting wet, then there is absolutely no point going through any of it, regardless of your objections to the church numbers etc.

Fair point, but my argument is that they are equally as pointless, but its just a little easier for the child regarding options if you go through the process.

And the fact that the child may be left out when it comes to communion etc is exactly why people who don't believe in God shouldn't have their kids baptised anyway. The fewer kids getting baptised, the fewer occasions that kids will feel left out, and the less influence and control the Church has in schools. Baptising your child because "Ah sure it's the done thing and it's a nice day out" or "Have to get them into a Catholic school because there's no ET ones" just continues the trend of it being the done thing or having to get them baptised to get into the local school.

I remember I was going to sign up to that "count me out" site and get myself taken of the official Catholic Church list. I got in touch with that crowd with a lot of questions.
After picking their brains for a bit on the effectiveness of it regarding our schooling and Church power, I learned that the census is equally as effective in terms of how the figures are used.

I have to hand it to them, they could have spoofed me, but they were really up front about the implications of doing it, not to mention the effectiveness of it.

Look, Im not denying that there is certain principles being broken by going ahead with it, Im not denying that Im lying to the church (I really dont care about that tbh), and Im not denying that it cant hurt the church either despite how I think the use of those figures has been hyped up.

All Im saying is, I would care more about my childs happiness than my own principles (so long as its moral and common sense obviously).

OP, I'm not saying you shouldn't baptise your child. I'm saying you shouldn't baptise your child if you don't want to

Likewise OP, Im just throwing out the counter argument.

wylo

number10a wrote: »

Going through Communion and Confirmation means going through the faith formation classes in school. You can't show up for the ceremony and not have the classes. Thus, you are creating another little Catholic. No money in the world could get me to do that to my child. The mental torment, anguish, and pain that I went through as a 15/16 year old coming to terms with his sexuality because of the Catholic faith guilt that was bred into me was unbelievable. There were nights when I cried myself to sleep because I thought I was broken, faulty, sinful, evil etc. No child should ever have to go through that be they straight/gay/bi/trans whatever.

My parents had no influence on my Catholic upbringing bar taking me to Mass. They left everything to the school basically. So yes, keeping your child out of Catholic faith formation classes in our State schools is one of the greatest gifts you can give as a parent in Ireland.

Well then, I consider myself lucky and possibly ignorant of the potential of mental torment in terms of imposing beliefs like that.

I guess for me, it just seemed so nonsensical so early that really all that crap meant nothing to me. ESPECIALLY when I was beginning to hit my teens.

But sorry if it had that much an effect on you.


Although it seems my entire point being related to just God is being ignored, cause Ive acknowledged about 4 or 5 times now that if its about the Church then thats a fair counter argument.

wylo

Galvasean wrote: »

Yes. every time David Quinn pulls a statistic based on baptismal records out of his ass. every time someone tells me, "You were baptised so you're still Catholic ha!"

That wouldnt be enough for me to feel like I didnt leave the cult, they can do and say what they want.

28064212

wylo wrote: »

Although it seems my entire point being related to just God is being ignored, cause Ive acknowledged about 4 or 5 times now that if its about the Church then thats a fair counter argument.

Unless a priest is blindfolded, brought to a warehouse where nobody can see, and the ceremony is performed in total secrecy, no baptism is about "just God"

Bannasidhe

True conversation with my unbaptised son when 'communion' time rolled around

Son: 'Why arn't I making my communion?'
Me: 'Because you're not a Catholic.'
Son: 'But they get loads of money. It's not fair!! I want to get loads of money!!'
Me: 'You'd get more money if you had a Bar Mitzvah...'
Son: 'What's a Bar Mitzvah?'
Me: 'It's a Jewish ritual for when a boy becomes a man'
Son: 'Will Nathan and Reuben have Bar Mitzvahs and get loads of money?'
Me: 'Yes.'
Son: 'Why can't I have a Bar Mitzvah?'
Me: 'Because you're not Jewish.'
Son: 'Can I be Jewish?'
Me: 'Maybe...but remember Reuben's Bris ?'
Son: 'When the Rabbi cut off the top of Reuben's willy?'
Me: 'It wasn't the top of his willy - it was his foreskin - but yes...That's called circumcision. Jewish men are circumcised...'
Son: '........... do Anglican's get money?'
Me: 'Not really.'
Son: 'So What do I get?'
Me: 'To decide for yourself what you believe in.'
Son: 'Yeah? Cool!!!!! Will I get any money?'
Me: 'Sure.'
Son: 'EXCELLENT! How?
Me: 'Get a job.'

Newaglish

wylo wrote: »

a child is hardly going to turn around at 7 years old and say "Mammy I want to be baptized so I can get my confirmation."

And that, my friends, is why they baptise them as babies and brainwash them from the age of 3.

Penn

wylo wrote: »

Although it seems my entire point being related to just God is being ignored, cause Ive acknowledged about 4 or 5 times now that if its about the Church then thats a fair counter argument.

Penn wrote:

But it is different, even if it's just about God. It's about making promises to something you don't believe in, about things you don't agree with, in a ceremony you don't think has any effect whatsoever. You say yourself, it's just a kid's head getting wet. But that's not what it's supposed to be. If you don't believe anything happens other than the kids head getting wet, then there is absolutely no point going through any of it, regardless of your objections to the church numbers etc.

Again, if you don't believe in God, regardless of the issues with the Church, there is no point getting your child baptised. Things like the child being left out when it comes to Communion or whatever can easily be worked around by explaining to the child and maybe doing something else with them instead. A special day out with them. Presents for finishing that year in school etc. Fair enough, the child might still feel left out in a way, but if you don't believe in God, there's no point going through the charade. Kids are pretty adaptable and resilient.

Would you celebrate Hunnukah with your children? After all, wouldn't want them to feel left out when they see Jewish children getting Hunnukah presents. Same thing here. If you're not a Catholic and don't wish to raise your child as a Catholic, there is no point in pretending just so the child doesn't feel left out.

Powerhouse

lazygal wrote: »

Expecting baby number one in the summer. We didn't have a church wedding, but did have a humanist service which both families were really pleasantly surprised and moved by (result!). But now my totally lapsed Catholic mother as well as my husband's parents have been starting the "Ah, would you not just have a christening, seems a shame not to have godparents". We do not and will not have one, even though we will have to send our child to a local (excellent) Catholic school if the Educate Together is oversubscribed. What's also annoying us is that my sister in law has had a new baby and the christening will be shortly before our baby is due and has already said how ours will feel felt out, how it won't have godparents to spoil it etc, which is beyond head wrecking even though its disguised as "banter".

Any ideas on fending off the mothers and families from sprinkling the magic water?

I'd say develop a slightly thicker skin. In the general run of things nobody in your family will care less about this even in the short-run. Far too much of a fuss being made of this by other posters - you family will genuinely be far too busy getting on with their own lives to give a fiddler's about this once the attraction of a day out wearing a hat and matching handbag wears off. One of my sisters has never even seen two of my children never mind fussing about whether they have godparents or not and it makes no difference whatsoever.

wylo

Newaglish wrote: »

And that, my friends, is why they baptise them as babies and brainwash them from the age of 3.

You see, I guess the way I see it is, that didnt happen me, it clearly happened others here though, for me, it just "wore off", a bit like Santa Clause (not comparing to the two beliefs before I get accused of that).

But despite being brainwashed, despite being told there was a God, by my school, the church, and to a much lesser extent , my parents, I just stopped believing it.

I guess it didnt leave me the kind of bitterness that it seems to have left others. Im sure I would be far far far more anti-catholic had I been crying myself to sleep in my teens over guilt of not being a good catholic.

I just questioned it early, I probably have my parents to thank because they stopped caring whether I even went to mass or not by around the age of 8.


So i can see why people are passionate about it, after all , it is an atheist forum, so people here would have alot stronger belief against the Church.

Its worth noting that there are others who would be much further the other end of the spectrum. There are people who run charities where most of their funding would come from the Church and would have different viewpoints.

Its just about your own personal experience.

Im just pointing out to the OP, that if its about God, and your complete lack of belief in God, and not to do with the Church, well then it shouldnt really make a difference.

Mark Hamill

lazygal wrote: »

What's also annoying us is that my sister in law has had a new baby and the christening will be shortly before our baby is due and has already said how ours will feel felt out, how it won't have godparents to spoil it etc, which is beyond head wrecking even though its disguised as "banter".

Any ideas on fending off the mothers and families from sprinkling the magic water?

You could always ask them why they feel they need permission from the catholic church to spoil your kid.

Mark Hamill

wylo wrote: »

If you don't believe in God then a bit of water on a childs head shouldnt mean anything. However it does allow the child to choose later on whether its nonsense or not.

How exactly would not baptising your kid prevent it from choosing later on when whether it thinks catholicism is nonsense or not?

wylo wrote: »

The way I see it is, Im glad my parents baptized me, because I got to enjoy communion and confirmation. It was nothing to do with religion. It was just a great excuse to get money from relations.

Why exactly did your family need permission from the catholic church to give you money?

Beruthiel

wylo wrote: »

Are you baptized and if so, do you feel you are still being held by the cult that you cant leave?

Yes.
I utterly resent the fact I cannot opt out.
It annoys the hell out of me to know that I am considered in the numbers of the RCC.
That annoyance might in part have to do with the sh!te I had to put up with in school (nuns) and very religious parents at home.
Either way, forcing your religion on a helpless child is just plain nasty.

Mark Hamill

wylo wrote: »

Fair point, but my argument is that they are equally as pointless, but its just a little easier for the child regarding options if you go through the process.

What options? Options to make money from later religious ceremonies?

wylo

Mark, Other than the church, why does the argument matter to you? Keeping in mind, Im saying other than the church.

I ask this for a reason. Its because Ive said countless times if its completely about the Church and nothing to do with God, then we agree.

Ive also talked about how all of our experiences with the Church are different, and I can completely see how some people have been effected badly by the Church and others not, actually others are completely the opposite and can see where the Church has seriously helped their lives.

I guess the whole thing had and has such little hold on me that I hold fairly open views on whether the child gets baptized or not.
Ive my parents to thank for that, and Ill certainly do the same, and thats IF I even baptize my kids.

Im grateful that I give the Church so little respect that I really couldnt give a crap about their principles and what they believe for the benefit of my child having a better schooling option or something to celebrate during their occasions for the sake of a bit of money from relations etc.

I guess thats the difference between a practicing vehement atheist and a passive atheist who just doesnt care about the church.

wylo

Beruthiel wrote: »

Yes.
I utterly resent the fact I cannot opt out.
It annoys the hell out of me to know that I am considered in the numbers of the RCC.
That annoyance might in part have to do with the sh!te I had to put up with in school (nuns) and very religious parents at home.
Either way, forcing your religion on a helpless child is just plain nasty.

Admittedly it wasnt forced on me the same way so thats why I just simply dont give a crap.

Penn

wylo wrote: »

Mark, Other than the church, why does the argument matter to you? Keeping in mind, Im saying other than the church.

I ask this for a reason. Its because Ive said countless times if its completely about the Church and nothing to do with God, then we agree.

Ive also talked about how all of our experiences with the Church are different, and I can completely see how some people have been effected badly by the Church and others not, actually others are completely the opposite and can see where the Church has seriously helped their lives.

I guess the whole thing had and has such little hold on me that I hold fairly open views on whether the child gets baptized or not.
Ive my parents to thank for that, and Ill certainly do the same, and thats IF I even baptize my kids.

Im grateful that I give the Church so little respect that I really couldnt give a crap about their principles and what they believe for the benefit of my child having a better schooling option or something to celebrate during their occasions for the sake of a bit of money from relations etc.

I guess thats the difference between a practicing vehement atheist and a passive atheist who just doesnt care about the church.

But again, the only reasons you say to baptise is to have a better schooling option (which won't change unless people stop baptising their kids) and to get money from relations or not feel left out. That's not a good enough reason.

Religion wasn't forced on me as a kid like others here, and bar a few comments here and there, nobody in my family really cares I'm an atheist now. Religion isn't that important in my family, and never really has been, even though two of my granduncles were priests. But it's just wrong to baptise your kids if it's not what you believe or not what you want them to believe.

You keep saying to forget about the Church, and if it's only about God, then you should baptise. But you can't just leave out the church, because they are valid reasons against baptism.

Mark Hamill

wylo wrote: »

Mark, Other than the church, why does the argument matter to you? Keeping in mind, Im saying other than the church.

I ask this for a reason. Its because Ive said countless times if its completely about the Church and nothing to do with God, then we agree.

Ive also talked about how all of our experiences with the Church are different, and I can completely see how some people have been effected badly by the Church and others not, actually others are completely the opposite and can see where the Church has seriously helped their lives.

I guess the whole thing had and has such little hold on me that I hold fairly open views on whether the child gets baptized or not.
Ive my parents to thank for that, and Ill certainly do the same, and thats IF I even baptize my kids.

Im grateful that I give the Church so little respect that I really couldnt give a crap about their principles and what they believe for the benefit of my child having a better schooling option or something to celebrate during their occasions for the sake of a bit of money from relations etc.

I guess thats the difference between a practicing vehement atheist and a passive atheist who just doesnt care about the church.

Yeah, thats all super, now go back and answer my questions.

krudler

Beruthiel wrote: »

Yes.
I utterly resent the fact I cannot opt out.
It annoys the hell out of me to know that I am considered in the numbers of the RCC.
That annoyance might in part have to do with the sh!te I had to put up with in school (nuns) and very religious parents at home.
Either way, forcing your religion on a helpless child is just plain nasty.

ah but shure if you dont really believe you're not really one blahhhhh blah blah.

**** the RCC , that is all, bunch of slimy cnuts changing man made law to stop people leaving their corrupt organisation.

wylo

Penn wrote: »

You keep saying to forget about the Church, and if it's only about God, then you should baptise. But you can't just leave out the church, because they are valid reasons against baptism.

Of you're right, and I do keep saying that, but I guess personally for me , my Church opinions are far far weaker than others, and believe me Im really happy that's the case.

The Church is dying, for lots of reasons, no mass attendance, scandal, the rise in popularity of questioning a God, and Im happy to see this, even though I do hope other avenues of funding for charities come from somewhere else, because the Church isnt all "evil" despite its horrendous history.

Im aware it may seem contradictory that Im saying this and then willing to go off and baptize my child (its worth noting that Im not even sure will I or not, this is just a counter argument that's all), but I guess the point Im making is, for the sake of even one simple thing like a better schooling option Im willing to let some random priest do his little ritual.

wylo

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Yeah, thats all super, now go back and answer my questions.

No, because you dont see my argument, it renders your questions pointless and off topic. Read back on that post again properly.

ShooterSF

@Wylo

Fair enough put aside the church issue as big as it is. Sooner or later your child will find out you don't believe in God (and the later that is, the longer you have lied to them). What lessons can they take from your actions? Fitting in is more important than being true to your beliefs? Lying to people to make a few quid is ok?
Conformist and Conmanperson are not two traits I'd like to promote as a role model.
These are very possible non church related effects of baptising a child when it's for disingenuous reasons.