W.W Greener Restoration??

hrcbob

A friend of mine called in this eve with an old damascus barreled sxs this eve for me to have a look at it.. It is marked as W.W Greener 66 A 67 Cornhill London.. Its an under lever model and is in great condition apart from pitting on the inside of the barrels.
He is very interersted in restoring it to a usable condition and as far as i can see the cation is in good working order..
Is it possible to get a new pair of barrels made to fit the original action??
I think the origin barrels are beyond repair due to pitting and some undesireable dents..
Any help or useful suggestions welcome..

moby30

I only posted recently about Pat O Brien in bray who has restored a greener sxs with Damascus barrels. Give him a ring and he'll give you all the info you need.
Best of luck with it.

hrcbob

Thanks for The replies lads.. I think it will def need new barrels as they are dinged and badly pitted inside.. Shame realy as its a gorgeous piece of kit.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

.......... like Mr Sludd.

I have recently been told that Pat does not deal with metal work or repairs at all.

hrcbob wrote: »

.....I think it will def need new barrels as they are dinged and badly pitted inside.. ...

Do not be so "quick" to write it off. I would suggest bringing it to a gunsmith or two, and having it professsionally assessed before spending any money. Even if it cost the same maybe the barrels can be restored. Surely original, restored barrels would be better than a brand new set.

Grizzly 45

Depends on how bad the pitting is.It might be possible to get them sleeved,not cheap either,but not as expensive as getting new barrells made up.

hrcbob

Its been to a gunsmiths before and the firing pins were removed and a note returned to say the barrels were too badly pitted to be fired. Is there anyone in ireland that undertakes a sleving or restoration job or is it going to mean a trip to the uk??

rowa

The barrels can be lead lapped to remove the pitting but this obviously makes the metal thinner and therefore weaker , it could be done but the barrels would have to be proved again for either modern cartridges or blackpowder ones, the gun could pass but just as equally fail and be scrap and that would be a shame. another problem with damascus barrels is corrosion, as they are made up of alternative strips of iron and steel if corrosion gets between these strips they could be dangerous.

Nigel teague of choke fame has devised a barrel liner that is fitted into the barrel after it is bored out , the liner is inserted and tig welded at each end , it is a good idea , but i would think expensive to do.

Peter dyson in england has damascus barrel blanks in stock and they aren't cheap , around £400 sterling each , so its £800 spent before a skilled man puts a hand on it. Also a sleeved gun is always worth less then an original one , so you could be on a hiding to nothing.

Double Barrel

hrcbob,

There are no inexpensive fixes, I am sorry to say. It very well can be a money pit.
How about a few photos of the gun in question to determine if the gun is worthy, Greener made all sorts of guns ranging from the lowly to the Monarch Imperial G70.

First off you require a gunsmith who is "well versed" in damascus metallurgy. Most are not.

Double Barrel

ROWA
From what I hear Nigel is no longer lining barrels.

Jon Corners is using a barrel lining process which I believe is similar to a process Nigel Teague developed.
When Teague was doing lining he also ensures the gun was on face, made any adjustments and submitted the piece for proof. Once passed, the flats are stamped "lined barrels" and that was that.
Having damascus barrels lined involves boring out the steel from the inside then inserting liners which are permanently fused with the barrels. The only pricing I have seen for that process was in the area of 2,000 Euros plus.

From Jon Corners Web site:
"The process involves machining out the bore of the original barrels and inserting a thin wall liner so retaining the originality of the exterior. The bore is renewed from breech to muzzle with barrel spec material and is machined to the original gauge with 2 ½ or 2 ¾ chambers and with fixed chokes. All lined guns are proofed to 850 bar and stamped 'LINED' by the proof house. Joints at the breach and muzzle are invisible to all but the closest scrutiny."

http://www.joncornerprecision.com/Barrel.html

Briley and others make tube sets. Usually the tubes are used for American Skeet so a shooter can compete in sub gauge events.

http://www.briley.com/2009/tubesetfaq.html

hrcbob

Thanks db,, Pics to follow.. Tried last nite but had no decent camera. Searched online to try find a similar model but found nothing close enough to call a matching model..
I had thought of the idea of fitting a set of tubes and reducing it to a 20 bore.. It would still be a very good gun in that gauge.
If tubes could be made completely of steel as opposed to aluminium ones Briley supply, and permanently fitted they could possibly supply enough strength to pass a proof test?? Definatly worth giving them a call anyway.

rowa

Jaysis tac, don't start the proofing debate again , it will end in tears. Greener were a very well thought of company , they were based in st.mary's row in the gun quarter in birmingham , they had a lovely building there which was bulldozed to make room for road widening. I have never heard of them making a bad gun , even their single barrel gp models were tough and well worth the money, they even made them as harpoon guns, line throwing guns and clinker guns ( for shooting clinker off the walls of blast furnaces in the steel making industry). They also converted thousands of ex-military martini rifles for target shooting use.

hrcbob

tac foley wrote: »

I should have pointed out that although the Republic has no proof houses any more, it is commonplace, I'm told, to send refurbished guns to London or Birmingham for re-proofing.

Also, that none of the three shotgun specialists I spoke to this morning would touch the job with a bargepole - unless the gun had extreme historic value, or was originally a very top-end model of Greener's product line, it it simply not an economical proposition. Again, between £50 and £200 will get you one that is fit to shoot.

Let us know how you get on.

tac

See i think that you miss the point of having old stuff.. I like old stuff.. Specially nice old stuff.. Even better if it works!!
We all have our everyday guns that get dragged thru ditches and fall in the muck from time to time, but wouldnt it be nice to have that one bit of special kit in the corner of the safe that your great grandfather used to drop his pheasant ??

Its going to be a long term project by the sounds of things but well worth doing in my opinion.. (as long as it can be done for under a grand.. We all have limits )

rowa

I think you are being really optimistic if you think you can get it sleeved or rebarreled for less then a thousand euros, have a look on guntrader uk and you can pick up nice quality british boxlocks for less than that needing no work.

tac foley

hrcbob wrote: »

See i think that you miss the point of having old stuff.. I like old stuff.. Specially nice old stuff.. Even better if it works!!
We all have our everyday guns that get dragged thru ditches and fall in the muck from time to time, but wouldnt it be nice to have that one bit of special kit in the corner of the safe that your great grandfather used to drop his pheasant ??

Its going to be a long term project by the sounds of things but well worth doing in my opinion.. (as long as it can be done for under a grand.. We all have limits )

Since I don't want to get into a p!ssing match [again], I've removed all my offensive posts.

As for old guns, I have one Mauser that was brought back from the Boer War, another that spent almost eighty years in Africa, my dad's gun bought in 1930 and another that was a boy's birthday present in 1910. My most recently-bought rifle was made in 1898. I have only one modern rifle, made in the third quarter of the last century, so I know what value 'old' has.

All I was doing was telling the OP that it is going to cost a fortune, but if he is good with that, that is up to him.

tac

rowa

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/110412170516001

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/110309143515001

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/110422105305001

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/100814094545001

hrcbob

rowa wrote: »

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/110412170516001

Different animal alltogether!! The one im talkin bout is a hammer action. underlever..
If it was just for the sake of an old gun den yes you have a point but not when its been in the family for donkeys years..
Models something similar to this are making around 1000 to 1200 quid..

Thats closer.. http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4559832

Double Barrel

Probably similar to this gun with a Jones Screw Grip (patented 1859) and operated by the rotary under- lever. A very strong closing system used extensively on large calibre double rifles.
Not a Greener:

hrcbob

Yes thats the setup.. Hammers seem to have a double cocking action and when fully cocked they are below the line of sight of the shooter.. Lots of very nice touches realy..

rowa

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/111006141936000

Double Barrel

hrcbob
Do the hammers look like this? and the gun?
Greener Circa 1871 +-

hrcbob

THAT IS SUPER CLOSE!!!!!!
Few tiny differences in the side plates. but nothing huge.. The bluing is more pronounced on the side plates on the one here and it shows where the join is in the plate.. Hammers are almost a dead cert..
Please tell me its something rare and super valuable?? :eek:

just had a second look and THAT IS THE EXACT MODEL.. Do you have any more information on the model?? We had thought around that age but werent too sure..

Double Barrel

Are the strikers (firing pins) the same?

hrcbob

hammers are identical but unfortunatly the strikers /pins were removed for safety reasons due to barrel condition.. :mad: that was over a year ago so its unlikely they are still in the gunsmiths.. I do know a real good engineer thou that could possibly remake a set..
We had assumed that the extra tips on the hammers and the half cock were for pulling back the pins from the cartridges after the gun was fired before the gun was broken..
Do you have an idea if it is a model of any interest.. ??

Double Barrel

hrcBob,

Ring the gunsmith and see if he has the strikers. You want them.
Do no work on the gun. It is rare, .... how rare I am not sure.
I would give give Graham Greener a ring. http://www.wwgreener.com/

I can tell you this, it is a gun of interest. It is W.W. Greener's first patent (#800 of July 3, 1868) after he parted with his father. He called it the Self-acting Striker. Fairly rare bird.

Double Barrel

hrcbob wrote: »

We had assumed that the extra tips on the hammers and the half cock were for pulling back the pins from the cartridges after the gun was fired before the gun was broken..
Do you have an idea if it is a model of any interest.. ??

You were on the right track, at the time it was common for strikers to be stuck in a primer and opening the gun would be difficult or impossible. With this design the striker is forced out by lifting the hammers to half cock. Actually works very well and the length of the strikers allows the hammers to lay exceptionally far back and below the line of sight.

hrcbob

Just sorting out pics there so give me a few mins and ill have em up.. I have the details of the gun smith so will be calling him first thing tomorrow,, How likely is it that they kept them??? Not very me thinks..


Just recieved this..

Dear Mr Doyle,



Thank you for your e-mail. Your gun was made before our accurate records begin in 1880. The serial number would indicate it was made circa 1870/71. If you can send some photos of the gun we should be able to determine the model, type and grade and perhaps advise you on whether it may be worth restoring. Details of the photos required to be able to identify a gun correctly are as per the attachment. Where do you live? Is it possible for you to visit our workshops in Hagley with the gun? If so we would be better able to advise you on what to do.



Kind regards





Graham N. Greener



Graham N. Greener

Director



W W Greener (Sporting Guns) Limited

The Mews, Hagley Hall, Hagley, DY9 9LG, England

Tel : +44-1666-510351

Double Barrel

Bob
I do not want to get your hopes up but smiths (good ones) are hoarders.
They tend to keep stuff that is unusual. :rolleyes:

hrcbob

Fingers crossed eh?? Ill have to get some pics sent off to greeners to see what they say too..

Double Barrel

Is the engraving signed? It will be a very small sig, might be on the triggers if not in the field.

hrcbob

We have spotted an illegible lettering on the gun but we cant make it out.. possibly initials..

Double Barrel

Found this, a Greener 12 bore rifle that will sell at the Bonham auction:

http://www.bonhams.com/eur/auction/18995/lot/98/

hrcbob

pics.. sorry they are so big

o

Double Barrel

Do you think the stock is original to the gun? What length are the barrels?
Try taking photos outdoors as natural light is more forgiving.
Any marks on the action flats and barrel's ?

hrcbob

Id say its original as the day is long. checkering is well worn from handling and it has an old style straight grip english stock..
Action flats have proof marks for each barrel and a mark saying W.W. Greener pattented Stamped around the locking mechanisim hole.

Barrels have the capital b primary proof marks, And what appear to be birmingham nitro proof markings Twice on each barrel.
And the birmingham gun makers view mark on each barrel..

Double Barrel

Bob
Excellent. When you send photos to Greener's pic's of the marks would be helpful.
Check that all SN# match, barrels, receiver, forend etc.
The photos are not to big BTW.
You may not have a shooter but you surely have a keeper, and definitely an heirloom.
Good luck with the strikers.

hrcbob

All the numbers match.. the fore end ones are engraved into the wood twice on each side of the latching mechanism. kinda unusual.. There is a slight split in the wood but i think it would be worth leaving as is just not to loose the numbers.. Maybe get it repaired by a specialist like Mr Sludds..

Double Barrel

I would wait and see what Graham Greener has to say, he may be the way to go, depending on rarity.
Pat is a stock man.
I think Moby mentioned he had a good experience with Pat O Brien in Bray.
Peter McGee in Newport is well qualified and has an excellent reputation.

hrcbob

Yea its probably a good idea goin through Greeners.. They asked for a comprehensive picture album to be sent by cd to them so the plan is to get cracking on that tomorrow.. Call goin in to the gun smiths first thing too, Thanks for the help DB.. Ill keep you posted on progress..

Double Barrel

hrcbob,

It is difficult to tell for sure but I think your barrels pattern look, or would look, like this set that have being redone.

hrcbob

the spirals arent that visible due to a bit of light rust and i didnt want to clean it with anything more abrasive than an oily rag incase it would take off the markings.. They are only visible for about 3 inches after the chambers one one side.,. Pretty similar but i always thought each barrel was almost unique due to how they are forged???

Double Barrel

The pattern can be repeated because a billet is formed consisting of sheets of iron and steel arranged to form a pattern which is welded, twisted and wrapped around a mandrel to form a barrel. Several barrels can be made from a billet.

hrcbob

Little update.. Firing pins are gone.. Not to be recovered gone.. :mad: Its looking like its going to be a trip across the water for it to see what the verdict is from either greeners or another damascus specialist..

4200fps

hrcbob wrote: »

Thanks for The replies lads.. I think it will def need new barrels as they are dinged and badly pitted inside.. Shame realy as its a gorgeous piece of kit.

Pitting can be taken out by honing the barrels leaving them highly polished. They can get rid of dints by placing some sort of an insert inside the barrel while its tapped with a brass hammer. Here's videos i found worth a look so things may be looking positive for you

http://youtu.be/wXQb2QoMJPo
http://youtu.be/b_x3hQHtdtI

4200fps

Double Barrel wrote: »

The pattern can be repeated because a billet is formed consisting of sheets of iron and steel arranged to form a pattern which is welded, twisted and wrapped around a mandrel to form a barrel. Several barrels can be made from a billet.

You love your side by sides like myself Double Barrel lol. If that's your s/s in the pictures on this thread i love it