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Ireland-Openside Flankers

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    #92
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,720 ✭✭✭✭phog


    the juice wrote: »
    My thoughts exactly; hes a good player but what has he got that the backrow already playing hasnt??

    No one seems to give a logical definitive answer to what exactly he will bring to the team thats not already there in abundance.

    Freshness?
    A kick in the ar*e to whoever get's dropped?
    A sign to the rest of the team?


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    #93
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    phog wrote: »
    A kick in the ar*e to whoever get's dropped?

    lol; thats settled it so; he wont be playing


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    #94
    profitius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    yimrsg wrote: »
    What in your opinion does POM do differently that SOB/Ferris/Heaslip can't?

    He's cut from the same cloth as Ferris and SOB and the only advantage I can see he has over them, is he'd be a better lineout option than them and has more experience in mauls. You've said yourself that he's not as good individually as the current incumbents but yet you want him in. Based on your reasoning, you could make similar arguments for inferior players that offer balance such as a specialist 7 to play instead of one of them.

    Ronan plays 7 for Munster, so POM isn't rated as a 7 provincially but you're advocating POM to usurp him and play 7 in the national side. The same thing already happened when SOB overtook his Leinster comrade, Jennings in international selection at 7. All that will happen is the same mistakes continue, DK and the coaches will spin a yarn saying he came and performed admirably yadda yadda yadda, a little more of me will die inside, and we're still left without a cohesive backrow and some posters will call for the next in the line of young talent or 7's to fill the gap; Ruddock/Henry/Jennings/Ronan/Ryan/Faloon/etc. ad infinitum.

    It's not the players fault the backrow/defence/attack/etc. isn't performing, it's a systemic failure of tactics brought about by deficiencies in coaching and the visible result of those failures is the performances (or lack thereof) we're seeing on the pitch.

    POM could turn into a fantastic 7. He has a big workrate and is technically good at the breakdown although he does tend to be wreckless sometimes.

    I wouldn't take no notice of where he plays for Munster. He is playing as a 6 because he can. Munsters victory over Northampton was by far their best performance of the season. Northampton struggled to match Munster at the breakdown and POM was playing 7.

    That said I wouldn't go overboard about the lack of a natural 7. All the pack has to be good in that area these days.


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    #95
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    d-gal wrote: »
    I would prefer to give a guy with huge potential rather than a player like JOC, Ronan or Jennings who are over the hill pretty much.
    Every other nation does it and its about development. The Welsh and Aussies do it time and time again so why not us.
    Plus since POM's style of play and leadership I think he would not be fazed too much. Give players with potential a shot, not average players who won't make the next WC

    sorry, you still dont seem to get my point. Ireland were beaten at ruck time last weekend, we dont have a natural 7 in our team, to rectify this problem we can bring in a natural 7 (POM is NOT a groundhog) or we could alternatively commit greater numbers to rucks.

    POC is not a groundhog and never will be. If we want to pick a ground hog at 7 we should pick a ground hog and not another converted 6/8.

    rest assured Kidney will not pick a ground hog at 7 as he never does, which means we'll be heading to Paris with a big back row, as such to ensure quality of ruck ball we will need to commit greater numbers of players at ruck time.


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    #96
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    the juice wrote: »
    Jeez those really long replies just take so long don't they :D nuff said

    Thanks for the insight and forecast. You will of course have graded the offence and compared with punishment already dished out, I hope.

    Many humble apologies for delay in replying to you. Away from desk, y'see.


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    #97
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Thanks for the insight and forecast. You will of course have graded the offence and compared with punishment already dished out, I hope.

    Many humble apologies for delay in replying to you. Away from desk, y'see.

    Away from the desk? Really? Interesting.


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    #98
    yimrsg
    Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭yimrsg


    profitius wrote: »
    POM could turn into a fantastic 7. He has a big workrate and is technically good at the breakdown although he does tend to be wreckless sometimes.

    I wouldn't take no notice of where he plays for Munster. He is playing as a 6 because he can. Munsters victory over Northampton was by far their best performance of the season. Northampton struggled to match Munster at the breakdown and POM was playing 7.

    That said I wouldn't go overboard about the lack of a natural 7. All the pack has to be good in that area these days.

    Completely agree that he'll develop into a class backrower. At the moment he's a near carbon copy of what we've got already in the backrow. It's great to have that depth. Hopefully given time he'll mix that abrasiveness and become more streetwise like Quinlan and be a right pain for the opposition.


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    #99
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,720 ✭✭✭✭phog


    the juice wrote: »
    lol; thats settled it so; he wont be playing

    to save me typing a reply :D
    the juice wrote: »
    Jeez those really long replies just take so long don't they :D nuff said


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    #100
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    phog wrote: »
    to save me typing a reply :D

    brilliant lol; you took the words right from my hand!!


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    #101
    d-gal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭d-gal


    yimrsg wrote: »
    d-gal wrote: »

    POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob) :)
    d-gal wrote: »
    POM has the potential to be a top class international. He is a different kind of player to any of our backrows and he won't stand there looking for the ball.
    We have to change it as you have said they haven't played well together yet. It looks well on paper but useless on the pitch. If it doesn't work then you have to change and out of the other backrowers its either POM or someone like muldoon. A person who focuses on the basics, tackles and rucks everything.
    d-gal wrote: »
    As I have said POM is not as good individually as either 3 but he does play a different style of game, his workload is huge and he is offering something different which will help imo. People have to get there heads around it that the current backrow doesn't work together and things need to be tried out so give at least one player a chance. POM imo is the best player to be given a chance along with Henry, Muldoon and Ruddock.

    What in your opinion does POM do differently that SOB/Ferris/Heaslip can't?

    He's cut from the same cloth as Ferris and SOB and the only advantage I can see he has over them, is he'd be a better lineout option than them and has more experience in mauls. You've said yourself that he's not as good individually as the current incumbents but yet you want him in. Based on your reasoning, you could make similar arguments for inferior players that offer balance such as a specialist 7 to play instead of one of them.

    Ronan plays 7 for Munster, so POM isn't rated as a 7 provincially but you're advocating POM to usurp him and play 7 in the national side. The same thing already happened when SOB overtook his Leinster comrade, Jennings in international selection at 7. All that will happen is the same mistakes continue, DK and the coaches will spin a yarn saying he came and performed admirably yadda yadda yadda, a little more of me will die inside, and we're still left without a cohesive backrow and some posters will call for the next in the line of young talent or 7's to fill the gap; Ruddock/Henry/Jennings/Ronan/Ryan/Faloon/etc. ad infinitum.

    It's not the players fault the backrow/defence/attack/etc. isn't performing, it's a systemic failure of tactics brought about by deficiencies in coaching and the visible result of those failures is the performances (or lack thereof) we're seeing on the pitch.

    As I said he is a different style of player, better in the rucks and better in the tight. Much more dogged as well I think he has the potential to be a great 7 and I think most will agree that SOB is never going to be as good a 7 as a 6 or even 8.
    We can blame the system all we want but I don't think kidney will change it anytime soon so POM might work better for it, don't know til we try and I'm just looking at the best potential player at this current moment


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    #102
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    d-gal wrote: »
    As I said he is a different style of player, better in the rucks and better in the tight.

    Better than who??


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    #103
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    yimrsg wrote: »
    Ronan plays 7 for Munster, so POM isn't rated as a 7 provincially but you're advocating POM to usurp him and play 7 in the national side. The same thing already happened when SOB overtook his Leinster comrade, Jennings in international selection at 7. All that will happen is the same mistakes continue, DK and the coaches will spin a yarn saying he came and performed admirably yadda yadda yadda, a little more of me will die inside, and we're still left without a cohesive backrow and some posters will call for the next in the line of young talent or 7's to fill the gap; Ruddock/Henry/Jennings/Ronan/Ryan/Faloon/etc. ad infinitum.

    Just to add, Ronan is out injured for 6 months, he just had his knee operation last week I think. If POM plays next week he wont be getting a spot ahead of Ronan because he isn't available.


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    #104
    wicklowdub
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭wicklowdub


    When is the team expected to be announced ?


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    #105
    d-gal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭d-gal


    the juice wrote: »
    d-gal wrote: »
    As I said he is a different style of player, better in the rucks and better in the tight.

    Better than who??

    Heaslip in the tight and SOB/ferris at ruck time. The 3 of them are better in the loose than him and heaslip is great at ruck time but he seems not to be involved as much as he was previously (either orders or just him not doing the dirty work). The 3 are better overall obviously but I just see something different in POM, he is like a mix of Quinlan and a young jonny o connor

    We are going around in circles anyways and a lot of us will agree to disagree.
    Main point is our current backrow doesn't work together at the moment (due to them/system/whatever) and we should change it. POM has the best potential out of our current crop so let's try him out. Maybe not against France (tho he might have to with Ferris ban) but maybe against the Scots and Italians.

    The system could be changed but its not gonna happen under Kidney and he is going to be there for a while I feel (fear!)


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    #106
    smurphy29
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭smurphy29


    Bamboozle's point is correct. There is no need to change the make-up of the backrow, but the tctics have to change, and means commiting greater numbers to the breakdown. Look at the tape of any of the following games: Leinster v Bath, Ulster v Leicester and Saints v Munster. None have a McCaw or a Warburton, but the Irish provinces in each case attacked the breakdown with a feral intensity (and accuracy) and as a result Reddan / Pienaar / Murray got the ball on a silver service.

    Ireland may not have a natural openside but they have a number of outstanding ruck-smashers - Ferris, Heaslip, O'Connell, Healy, Ryan and Best all instantly spring to mind. They need to use these players to smash opponents off the ball. It didn't happen on sunday.


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    #107
    d-gal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭d-gal


    smurphy29 wrote: »
    Bamboozle's point is correct. There is no need to change the make-up of the backrow, but the tctics have to change, and means commiting greater numbers to the breakdown. Look at the tape of any of the following games: Leinster v Bath, Ulster v Leicester and Saints v Munster. None have a McCaw or a Warburton, but the Irish provinces in each case attacked the breakdown with a feral intensity (and accuracy) and as a result Reddan / Pienaar / Murray got the ball on a silver service.

    Ireland may not have a natural openside but they have a number of outstanding ruck-smashers - Ferris, Heaslip, O'Connell, Healy, Ryan and Best all instantly spring to mind. They need to use these players to smash opponents off the ball. It didn't happen on sunday.

    But it won't change anytime soon coz of Kidney and co.
    I fear as well if we beat England that kidneys job will be safe


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    #108
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    smurphy29 wrote: »
    Bamboozle's point is correct. There is no need to change the make-up of the backrow, but the tctics have to change, and means commiting greater numbers to the breakdown. Look at the tape of any of the following games: Leinster v Bath, Ulster v Leicester and Saints v Munster. None have a McCaw or a Warburton, but the Irish provinces in each case attacked the breakdown with a feral intensity (and accuracy) and as a result Reddan / Pienaar / Murray got the ball on a silver service

    Leinster and Ulster especially, commit as few to the defensive breakdown as possible. If the ball is already being won, no need. A defender won't commit unless they have to.


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    #109
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    You dont need to commit loads to the breakdown; those going have to time it well and get over the ball so they are relatively immovable and the scrum half has to get to the ball quickly


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    #110
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    d-gal wrote: »
    But it won't change anytime soon coz of Kidney and co.
    I fear as well if we beat England that kidneys job will be safe

    so bringing in someone new, and arguably a less experienced player, into the back row would have zero impact as the decision of management not to have players hitting rucks.

    POM is a decent player, he looks like he'll be a great player, he's miles off SOB, Heaslip & Ferris physically, experience-wise, discipline wise (ironic saying that given Ferris' yellow but POM discipline needs addressing)

    Finally, Paris is not the stage to give someone their debut...Derek McAllesse & Pat O'Hara will attest to that.


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    #111
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    bamboozle wrote: »
    discipline wise (ironic saying that given Ferris' yellow but POM discipline needs addressing)

    Does anyone have the stats for POM? I keep hearing he has discipline issues but I can't remember him getting many/any YC or giving away penalties in the HCup.


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    #112
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Otacon wrote: »
    Does anyone have the stats for POM? I keep hearing he has discipline issues but I can't remember him getting many/any YC or giving away penalties in the HCup.

    I do know he got a yellow v the Dragons in the Pro12 earlier in the season. Think he got one last year as well. I think it's more he just gets wound up easily, happened v Leinster earlier this season. Easy to get under his skin.


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    #113
    the juice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭the juice


    Tox56 wrote: »
    I do know he got a yellow v the Dragons in the Pro12 earlier in the season. Think he got one last year as well. I think it's more he just gets wound up easily, happened v Leinster earlier this season. Easy to get under his skin.


    (off everyone goes to find a video or reference to it online) = momentary silence on this topic


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    #114
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    He seems to get wound up a lot, or is always willing to get involved in a bit of handbags, but I think so far he hasn't let it go further and cost the team anything. The only thing I'd be concerned is when he is captain he shouldn't be sizing up to people like that, it'll affect how the ref treats him. When O'Connell is on, it's not too bad.

    Like I don't think a team has been able to provoke him into more penalties or getting carded, so if he can keep that it'll be grand. If i remember correctly the yellow he got against Dragons was for not rolling away, and he was caught under bodies in the ruck, so it was soft enough.


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    #115
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Nothing wrong with a backrow player with a bit of an edge. Wouldn't hold it against him.

    I wonder if Ferris does get a ban [somehow] would Henry be called back into the squad?


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    #116
    smurphy29
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭smurphy29


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Leinster and Ulster especially, commit as few to the defensive breakdown as possible. If the ball is already being won, no need. A defender won't commit unless they have to.
    Yeah, it's not so much a numbers thing as the ferocity and accuracy with which they hit the breakdown.


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    #117
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    I see that Ferris has been cited for his yellow card on Sunday. If he's forced to sit out a game or two we might see what our options are at 7


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    #118
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    smurphy29 wrote: »
    Yeah, it's not so much a numbers thing as the ferocity and accuracy with which they hit the breakdown.

    And speed. The quicker you get to the brakdown the fewer players you're going to need to present clean ball. Ireland were noticeably slower at this then Wales.


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    #119
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    I see that Ferris has been cited for his yellow card on Sunday. If he's forced to sit out a game or two we might see what our options are at 7

    Rather depressingly I would imagine a ban for Ferris would leave SOB selected at 7, DOC at 4 and Donnacha Ryan at 6.


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    #120
    bk123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭bk123


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Forgive my ignorance for not really following his developement, but what type of player would be best to describe Dom Ryan? Is he good on the ground but better at carrying/something else, or is best in the breakdown but brings other attributes?
    Reloc8 wrote: »
    Rather depressingly I would imagine a ban for Ferris would leave SOB selected at 7, DOC at 4 and Donnacha Ryan at 6.


    Sadly this is true, Ryan plays best at 4 which he should start at, i doubt ferris will be banned, but if he does id love to see O'brien at 6 or 8 where he plays his best rugby, hes effective at 7 but needs to get to the breakdown quicker and take the ball on at pace like he did with leinster last year no point a player with his power spending must of the time on the ground, ruddock is also an option at 6 as O'mahony at 7, Not a chance will kidney take such a risk though!


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    #121
    trackguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭trackguy


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    Rather depressingly I would imagine a ban for Ferris would leave SOB selected at 7, DOC at 4 and Donnacha Ryan at 6.

    That's depressing, but probably true.

    If Ferris is banned and the backrow ended up as 6. SOB 7. POM 8. Heaslip, at least we would see a very promising backrow with arguably more balance than the usual one.

    Of course, this is Kidney and this is Paris, so that won't happen.

    Stop-gap measures instead of forward-thinking and building for the future.


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