Ireland-Openside Flankers

rugbyman2015

I see George Hook has reignited this debate over opensides after defeat to Wales.

Not sure if I see much wisdom in it but should Peter O'Mahony be given a shot in Paris next week?

Even though Warburton went off at half time, Wales maintained the balance of their back row by bringing on Tipuric, another natural 7 from Ospreys.

Any opinions on our back row people??

danthefan

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

I see George Hook has reignited this debate over opensides after defeat to Wales.

Not sure if I see much wisdom in it but should Peter O'Mahony be given a shot in Paris next week?

Even though Warburton went off at half time, Wales maintained the balance of their back row by bringing on Tipuric, another natural 7 from Ospreys.

Any opinions on our back row people??

Since when is POM a natural 7?

durkadurka

On twitter he changed his mind on heaslip and said drop ferris instead based on the sinbinning . That wasn't even a pen .

He wouldn't stfu about the back row.

marco_polo

danthefan wrote: »

Since when is POM a natural 7?

Were you watching BBC or something, George annointed him around 6PM.

rugbyman2015

I'm not the one saying he is natural 7. Just going by the 'knowledge' of hook and what journalists think.

I don't think he'd survive against the French in Paris. He's barely played for Munster at 7 at all.

marco_polo

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

I'm not the one saying he is natural 7. Just going by the 'knowledge' of hook and what journalists think.

I don't think he'd survive against the French in Paris. He's barely played for Munster at 7 at all.

I think he would be just fine against the French, although it would be a pretty daunting place to earn your first cap. I'd consider starting him to freshen things up a bit and keep the other 3 on their toes, but he is not going to change the balance of the back row signifigently.

As for a world class ground hog, well as the saying goes if my auntie had ball she'd be my uncle :pac:, we don't have one so there is not much point obsessing on the matter too much. The backrow really is the up there amongst the least of our worries at the moment.

allprops

Could dk not stick ferris into the second row, PoM, Sob, heaslip all in the back row?

boynesider

Personally I think that the obsession with the "genuine openside" is completely over the top and is distracting from the real issues in the Irish team.

For some reason when one of these "loosies" come along a lot of rugby people wet themselves in excitement and go overboard in their praise (Sam Warburton being the most obvious example. Completely overrated and quite limited compared to the likes of O'Brien and Faletau).

The truth is that it is not a particularly crucial position in a rugby team. Leinster and Munster have dominated European rugby and swept aside all before them largely without an out-and-out seven (and Leinster whilst playing the most expansive game in the Northern Hemishpere). Ulster have been at their best this year with a backrow of Ferris, Henry and Wannenburg while their textbook openside Willie Faloon has been a bit part figure. If all the forwards do their jobs and get around the pitch the way they should, having someone as a designated fetcher shouldn't matter too much.

I believe that POM could do the job however, and Aaron Conneely and Conor Gilsenan of the u20's are both good prospects in this position. But in reality the Irish backrow is the least of my worries about the team. People are listening to George Hook far too much

Cpt_Blackbeard

allprops wrote: »

Could dk not stick ferris into the second row, PoM, Sob, heaslip all in the back row?

I'm sure he could.

Tim Robbins

There's a brilliant number 7 playing for Lansdowne J2; Rathdrum also have a decent fella at 7 and Arklow had a brilliant lad at 7 last season.

They were at every single breakdown early and had huge tackles counts. The Lansdowne fella was also pretty smart rolling the wrong the way after a tackle to make it harder - seeing how far he could push law.

All were classic 7's. Not the biggest player in the pack but easily the best tacklers and breakdown specialists in their teams.

Tim Robbins

The truth is that it is not a particularly crucial position in a rugby team. Leinster and Munster have dominated European rugby and swept aside all before them largely without an out-and-out seven (and Leinster whilst playing the most expansive game in the Northern Hemishpere).

Jennings, Gleeson, Ronan are all classic 7's.

Standard lower in Heineken Cup. None of the Welsh sides are a patch on the Welsh national team. You do very well in the H Cup, just playing ten man rugby or getting a few home draws.

budhabob

The person who has impressed me most with their work on the ground over the last season or two has been Varley. He seems to have great technique. Obviously you couldnt justify his inclusion over Best though.

corny

marco_polo wrote: »

The backrow really is the up there amongst the least of our worries at the moment.

True.

The Welsh went through phases of possession because they threw 4 or 5 into each ruck regardless of the number on their back. Even a natural 7 can't have a huge bearing when he's smashed back by numbers. By comparison our forwards either stood in midfield too often (can't count how many times i saw Conor Murray bridging in the ruck) or weren't mobile enough to get around. Bradley Davies probably hit twice as many rucks as DOC for example.

Tigerandahalf

Brian O Driscoll is probably the finest openside flanker we never had!
We tried to play an open game last 6 nations but got penalised out of the games as we werent able to control the rucks. I also remember that we knocked the ball on a huge amount. Im not sure if our players have the skills and without a world class 7 who can get from ruck to ruck it is v hard to play that game.
I read someone else commenting on how few mistakes wales made. Id love to know how many knockons they had. The had such control for a first game and some of them hadnt played in a while.

yimrsg

The perceived problem with Ireland's backrow based on securing quick ball at rucks is worsened by having POC taking too much ball. The problem is he's a willing ball carrier, infact too willing, taking ball which either should go to a back or a better ball carrier as he doesn't break tackles or make hard yards. When he goes into contact, he isn't as potent at making yards as Ferris, Healy, SOB or Heaslip are so usually one or more of the above have to go in to help retain possession, blunting our own offensive potency.

All our backrow can carry ball, but they're stifled somewhat when POC and other forwards become receivers, half of Ireland's starting forwards yesterday would be average at best ball carriers internationally and the other half are exceptional on their day, Best, Ross and the second row pairing should concentrate on clearing out ball with help from one or more of the 4 most potent carriers. I know that's not always possible in a match scenario but like the way Murray and Sexton kicked far too often it seems to be a fixed tactic for Ireland at interational level and it's simply inept letting it continue unabated.

When defending and hunting for turnovers our backrow isn't as potent as other international sides, Heaslip is the closest to a natural 7 currently in forcing turnovers. POM is no more a 7 at this level than SOB is, he's abrasive, physical and in the oppostion's face in the HC but I wouldn't consider him to be the solution to addressing the problem of backrow balacnce. SOB very often gets into position at rucks to force turnovers but he concedes too many penalties, he's still learning to play 7 at this level but hopefully he'll improve given time. With his strength he could be a phenomenal 7 if he gets his body position and arrival right, it's a mentality and technique adjustment that's required. It's inevitable that as he improves as a groundhog 7, we'll lose some of his ball carrying ability as he progressively looks not to carry but secure fast ball.

Ideally we'd like all 3 of our backrowers as pure ball carrying machines but no side can have that as they'd inevitably lose out to a side with a groundhog. France haven't got a pure groundhog like Pocock, Warburton etc but they still have balance, with most combinations of Dusauitor, Bonnaire, Harinordoquy and Picamoles the French still manage to tick all the boxes required for the backrow. Picamoles is a brilliant ball carrier, and the other 3 can do it all, rather than being specialists in a certain position (bar Picamoles) they're generalists, between them capable of doing a fine job collectively. Ireland should mimic the French model, rather than try copy Australia or Wales as we don't have an out-and-out 7 to use so we have to adjust accordingly. The French 2nd rowers aren't constantly used in to carry ball instead to clean out rucks. Put POC's willingness to work not at carrying ball, instead at clearing rucks and then see the difference.

Otacon

Not every player can be a SOB-like ball carrier though. POC is a big guy and was useful in taking in defenders yesterday. That is how he should and often is used. But when we do not commit enough players to the ruck to secure it, we give the Wales backrow licence to slow us down.

yimrsg

Otacon wrote: »

Not every player can be a SOB-like ball carrier though. POC is a big guy and was useful in taking in defenders yesterday. That is how he should and often is used. But when we do not commit enough players to the ruck to secure it, we give the Wales backrow licence to slow us down.

He takes in defenders because he doesn't break the gain line and the opposition can sniff a turnover when he carrys ball. Committing extra players to a poor carrier (no offence to POC) only exacerbates the problem. He shouldn't be receiving ball in the first place. He's probably the 6th best ball carrier in the starting pack yesterday.

d-gal

The thing with POC is his sheer workload. He goes thru so many carries and rucks, you never see him standing about, he is everywhere. He just gives the option of carrying everytime, always looking for work.

POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob)

tolosenc

Our back row is fine, and didn't cost us either game against Wales. Ideally, we'd have someone like Dom Ryan in the team, who can slow the ball down and do an above average amount of work on the ground, but is still a huge ball carrier.

I think our main problem is at 12, to be honest. It's an era of 6 foot 4, 17 stone crash ball merchants, and we're finding it tough to compete.

yimrsg

d-gal wrote: »

The thing with POC is his sheer workload. He goes thru so many carries and rucks, you never see him standing about, he is everywhere. He just gives the option of carrying everytime, always looking for work.

POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob)

Do you honestly think that POM is an international class 7 in the making? He's a 6 for Munster and bringing him in to the present backrow whilst failing to stop poor ball carryers receiving ball isn't going to change a thing.

The backrow is looking poor as a result of the failure to clear out rucks and there being too many ball carriers and not enough players willing to dirty their jumpers.

There hasn't been a single match in the last 2 seasons where all 3 of the backrowers played well and were prominent through out. All 3 of the starters for yesterday know how to do the basics, the problem is they're required to do much basics.

tolosenc

Breaking up the current trio in order to accomodate POM is lunacy. He is nowhere near them in terms of ability, and offers nothing that we are lacking in.

Sean Bateman

We should be playing O'Brien at 6, Heaslip at 8, Jennings at 7 and Ferris in the row.

d-gal

yimrsg wrote: »

d-gal wrote: »

The thing with POC is his sheer workload. He goes thru so many carries and rucks, you never see him standing about, he is everywhere. He just gives the option of carrying everytime, always looking for work.

POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob)

Do you honestly think that POM is an international class 7 in the making? He's a 6 for Munster and bringing him in to the present backrow whilst failing to stop poor ball carryers receiving ball isn't going to change a thing.

The backrow is looking poor as a result of the failure to clear out rucks and there being too many ball carriers and not enough players willing to dirty their jumpers.

There hasn't been a single match in the last 2 seasons where all 3 of the backrowers played well and were prominent through out. All 3 of the starters for yesterday know how to do the basics, the problem is they're required to do much basics.

POM has the potential to be a top class international. He is a different kind of player to any of our backrows and he won't stand there looking for the ball.
We have to change it as you have said they haven't played well together yet. It looks well on paper but useless on the pitch. If it doesn't work then you have to change and out of the other backrowers its either POM or someone like muldoon. A person who focuses on the basics, tackles and rucks everything.
More I think about the more I think we miss Wallace, he got thru a lot of ground work but still carried plenty.

I'm hoping someone like Dom Ryan develops soon and we can just nurture a player like him. Leinster will have to give him plenty of time otherwise I can see munster seeking in and trying to sign him,like what they're trying to do with Ruddock. Tho next year I feel Ryan should be starting 7 for leinster, miles better than Jennings

tolosenc

To be honest, Henry would offer the current set up far more than POM.

And if Munster try their sneeky nonsense with ANOTHER Leinster player, I swear to god...

molloyjh

d-gal wrote: »

I'm hoping someone like Dom Ryan develops soon and we can just nurture a player like him. Leinster will have to give him plenty of time otherwise I can see munster seeking in and trying to sign him,like what they're trying to do with Ruddock. Tho next year I feel Ryan should be starting 7 for leinster, miles better than Jennings

He will be I reckon. A bit of rotation between himself and SOB like with a lot of positions this season, but Ryan was getting HEC game time last season so is obviously highly regarded in there. I'd sooner lose Ruddock than him (obviously I'd rather lose neither!).

yimrsg

d-gal wrote: »

POM has the potential to be a top class international. He is a different kind of player to any of our backrows and he won't stand there looking for the ball.
We have to change it as you have said they haven't played well together yet. It looks well on paper but useless on the pitch. If it doesn't work then you have to change and out of the other backrowers its either POM or someone like muldoon. A person who focuses on the basics, tackles and rucks everything.
More I think about the more I think we miss Wallace, he got thru a lot of ground work but still carried plenty.

I don't doubt POM has the potential to top class international, but bringing him in as it stands is pointless. POM is a 6. We already have 2 6's in Ferris and SOB playing and it's not working. He's a destructive ball carrier for Munster and he'll be the same for Ireland. A definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different to happen. Trying Henry, Ronan or Jennings makes more sense as it's trying something new. Muldoon is another 6 and to me inferior than the other 6s. Wallace isn't a long or medium term option for backrow balance and all he'd be is a stopgap. He's athletic, fast and powerful but there are a lot of younger players who do that now and don't have to regain fitness and are 35.

I'm hoping someone like Dom Ryan develops soon and we can just nurture a player like him. Leinster will have to give him plenty of time otherwise I can see munster seeking in and trying to sign him,like what they're trying to do with Ruddock. Tho next year I feel Ryan should be starting 7 for leinster, miles better than Jennings

I really doubt Ryan is going to be a groundhog 7/messiah that people are praying for; in a game for Leinster against Ospreys with Tipuric (who is a true 7) in the side at the start of the season and Ryan was made to look largely anonymous. Tipuric was brilliant on Sunday, turning over ball on a couple of occasions, Ryan is a good bit away from that level of performance on an international level. He's closer to Heaslip or Harinordoquy, he's not a pure 7 but a very good backrower who will hopefully develop a near complete skill set.

It's up to the coaches to realise this and not continue to shoehorn players into failing tactics.

the juice

Jennings released back to his Province for the weekend - so he wont be going to Paris; Kidney really doesn't rate him at all.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2012/0206/earlsk.html

bamboozle

d-gal wrote: »

The thing with POC is his sheer workload. He goes thru so many carries and rucks, you never see him standing about, he is everywhere. He just gives the option of carrying everytime, always looking for work.

POM will give a balance coz he won't look for the ball everytime. He does his primary job and rucks and tackles everything. If heaslip/SOB/ferris drop to the bench then it will give a balance. Or backrow just cannot click together yet and we need a guy who is doing the basics well so we can 'let loose' the tanks (ferris/sob)

completely disagree, we're talking about a young lad who has played at 7 twice in the HC being the solution to our problems, give him a chance, he no where near SOB, Heaslip or Ferris, what Ireland need is the coach to select a groundhog such as Henry, Ronan, Jennings, Dom Ryan or Faloon or commit greater numbers to rucks.
Peter O'Mahoney is not the answer at 7.

the juice

bamboozle wrote: »

we're talking about a young lad who has played at 7 twice in the HC being the solution to our problems
Peter O'Mahoney is not the answer at 7.

Yes he is; George Hook said so

leonard7

at the end of the day ireland have been judged as having one of the best back rows in the world the talent is there and i think heaslip would do a better job at 7 than o brien

wouldnt get rid of any of them though