LPG Cooker

eager tortoise

Hi,

Just wondering can anyone here advise me about LPG cookers?
I've never had or used one before.

Is it safe to keep the gas cylinders for these cookers in the kitchen? Anyone else I've spoken to keeps them outside. I would've thought it was perfectly fine to keep them indoors, as people keep them in supersers etc.?

Billy Bunting

Butane (yellow bottle) can be used inside as long as there is adequate ventilation; Propane (red bottle) cannot be used inside.

Personally i wouldn't have a gas bottle indoors.

coylemj

It's perfectly safe to keep a yellow tank indoors, people have been doing it for years and I've never heard of a fatality attributable to having a butane cylinder in the kitchen.

Given that the kitchen is downstairs, the gas cylinder sits on the ground and that heat rises, it would be very hard to imagine a situation where a cylinder in a domestic house is exposed to serious heat, even in a serious fire. If the temperature in the air space between the ground and two feet above it rose to the level that would cause the gas cylinder to blow out, at that stage there wouldn't be much left of the house or it's occupants.

In the 60s and 70s there was a big advertising battle between the ESB and the bottled gas suppliers, both competing for the turf that was the kitchen cooker. The ESB sold electricity as being clean, Calor & Kosangas sold based on speed i.e. you didn't have to wait for the hot plate or oven to warm up, I don't ever remember even a sniff of a scare story about safety being an issue with keeping a tank of gas in the home.

Billy Bunting

coylemj wrote: »

It's perfectly safe to keep a yellow tank indoors, people have been doing it for years and I've never heard of a fatality attributable to having a butane cylinder in the kitchen.

Given that the kitchen is downstairs, the gas cylinder sits on the ground and that heat rises, it would be very hard to imagine a situation where a cylinder in a domestic house is exposed to serious heat, even in a serious fire. If the temperature in the air space between the ground and two feet above it rose to the level that would cause the gas cylinder to blow out, at that stage there wouldn't be much left of the house or it's occupants.

In the 60s and 70s there was a big advertising battle between the ESB and the bottled gas suppliers, both competing for the turf that was the kitchen cooker. The ESB sold electricity as being clean, Calor & Kosangas sold based on speed i.e. you didn't have to wait for the hot plate or oven to warm up, I don't ever remember even a sniff of a scare story about safety being an issue with keeping a tank of gas in the home.

I beg to differ on your experiences, the safety issues and regs are more concerned with gas escapes rather than exess heat in a room, gas escapes from or around gas bottles happen all the time, that bottle being located within the confines of a building can result in an actual scare story.

coylemj

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I beg to differ on your experiences, the safety issues and regs are more concerned with gas escapes rather than exess heat in a room, gas escapes from or around gas bottles happen all the time, that bottle being located within the confines of a building can result in an actual scare story.

So tell us about an incident where a gas cylinder located indoors leaked and caused an fire or explosion or even an 'actual scare story'.

Billy Bunting

Aaah stop will ya!! I’m a RGI, I trace gas escapes for a living, Just because YOU haven’t heard of an incident doesn’t mean they don’t occur, its bloody gas for God sake. :rolleyes:

Scare story's are only used for people with no common sense or children, but if you want one I'll remind you of the pub that was blown up in Athlone a few months ago:eek:, that was caused by another fella who thought there was no inherent risk.

To give you a few facts on Butane it has the lowest explosive limit of the 3 gases used and is heavier than air, so even a small leak will find it's way to the lowest point of a house and sit there, butane or propane has to be respected and to do otherwise is just silly, it's not hard to have a safe instillation but it's very easy to get it wrong and it's not pretty, I was in the next street over from a Calor site that went up in flames in London, the cylinders were flying over my head and landing on houses, the incident was caused by a silly mistake allowing a small initial leak.

I wouldn't have a gas bottle in my house if I could help it and that's based on my own risk assessment, as for the 70s it was common place to use a lit taper to identify gas leaks and a old fitter I apprenticed for who sounding just like you about "what can happen, i'v been doing it for 40 years blah blah blah..." He stopped using a match to find his leaks when he got from under the stairs to the otherside of the sitting room without using any doors or his legs :pac:

Billy Bunting

a old fitter I apprenticed for who sounding just like you about "what can happen, i'v been doing it for 40 years blah blah blah

Ah yes! i worked along with him on North Thames Gas, never did find a bubble for his spirit level.

Billy Bunting

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Ah yes! i worked along with him on North Thames Gas, never did find a bubble for his spirit level.

This fella was out of South Harrow, and one day he was teaching me about these new fangled combis, long story short he pulled the auto air release on the top of the boiler with out draining it or isolating it, he and the lovely lady of the house got drenched in sludgy water and I was left untouched as I was slouching lazily the other side of the kitchen door:pac::pac:

coylemj

gary71 wrote: »

Scare story's are only used for people with no common sense or children, but if you want one I'll remind you of the pub that was blown up in Athlone a few months ago:eek:, that was caused by another fella who thought there was no inherent risk.

Was the incident caused by the fact that the cylinders were stored indoors or was it just a leak in a gas line so that the incident would have happened either way? Did the cylinders explode or just blow out?

A gas explosion is usually caused by the accumulation of gas because of a leak, the gas then explodes when someone trips a light switch or a thermostat or timer switch causes a spark i.e. the explosion is usually not a direct result of the fact that the gas is stored indoors, it would have happened with propane or piped gas.

In case we lose sight of it, the issue we're discusing is the increased risk (if any) of storing butane gas cylinders indoors instead of outside as happens with propane.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

In case we lose sight of it

I havn't lost sight of it, i'v given a answer, you don't except it, my experiences with the aftermath of explosions working as a emergency gas engineer have given me a healthy respect of gas and the ease at which things can go wrong, you have different experiences, good for you, also i'v been in enough gas filled atmospheres to fully understand the process of combustion thank you;)
So to recap, I wouldn't want a cylinder of gas in my house if I didn't have to have it due to the potential risk which is minimised by placing the cylinder outside.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

Was the incident caused by the fact that the cylinders were stored indoors

Yes, they shouldn't have been there and there was insufficient ventilation

coylemj

gary71 wrote: »

Yes, they shouldn't have been there and there was insufficient ventilation

You need adequate ventilation regardless of where the gas is stored, indoors or outside, the same applies to piped gas. Cylinders don't need ventilation, the appliance consuming the gas does.

What caused the explosion?

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

You need adequate ventilation regardless of where the gas is stored, indoors or outside, the same applies to piped gas. Cylinders don't need ventilation, the appliance consuming the gas does.

Thanks for the lecture, but I'm too old to suck eggs.
If you look below you'll find some info that will help you become a better gasman;) and i'v given my advise if you don't like it then jog on, safety, safety, safety the guiding principles of gas fitting if you feel different I can't help you.

» General cylinder use
Up to 15kg of Butane in not more than 2 cylinders (blue) may be used indoors in residential premises, (e.g mobile heaters), and a further maximum of up to 15kg in not more than 2 spare cylinder(s) may also be stored indoors.
Propane cylinders (red) may be used indoors in commercial and industrial premises only on a temporary basis, i.e blowtorch, blown air heater, but the cylinders must always be stored outdoors.
» Basis rules
Cylinders should be used and stored in the upright position
Cylinders should be stored in well ventilated places away from sources of heat, ignition sources and readily ignitable materials
Cylinders must not be stored or used below ground level or in high rise flats where gas is prohibited
Cylinders should preferably be stored outdoors, away from buildings entry/exit points and feature such as drain
Cylinder must not be kept near to any corrovise, toxic or oxidant material

Billy Bunting

coylemj wrote: »

You need adequate ventilation regardless of where the gas is stored, indoors or outside, the same applies to piped gas. Cylinders don't need ventilation, the appliance consuming the gas does.

You are obviously so very very confused, buy yourself a copy of IS 813.

coylemj wrote: »

What caused the explosion?

In case we lose sight of it, the issue we're discusing is the increased risk (if any) of storing butane gas cylinders indoors instead of outside as happens with propane :rolleyes:

eager tortoise

Thank you for your input guys!

I appreciate that you have differing viewpoints on this. As a total newbie on the subject of gas cylinders I have tried to follow them as best I can

One final question: bottom line, will a gas installer fit a cooker for me in a small galley style kitchen and place the bottle of gas (yellow) in the kitchen also? How else would we bring the gas in from a cylinder stored outside? Hole in the wall? (Really am a newbie )

Billy Bunting

I personally wouldn't fit it inside for you, other RGI's may do.

Fitting the bottle outside is the prefered safer option and the only option i would be happy with.

Hole through the wall.

coylemj

That's ok, I'll ask my contacts in Athlone to tell me what caused the explosion.

coylemj

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I personally wouldn't fit it inside for you, other RGI's may do.

While we're into copying & pasting regulations....

You don't need to be an RGI to fit LPG appliances....

What categories of work do the Regulations not deem Gas Works?

For the purposes of section 9G(3) of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999, works which are gas works’ does not include–

(a) the installation, removal, repair, servicing, maintenance or replacement of Natural Gas Fittings designed to be used by Commercial Gas Customers;

(b) the installation, removal, repair, servicing, maintenance or replacement of Natural Gas Fittings designed to be used by Industrial Gas Customers;

(c) the installation, removal, repair, servicing, maintenance or replacement of Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Fittings;

(d) the design of gas works;

(e) work on the Point of Delivery;

(f) work upstream of the Point of Delivery;

(g) work on Natural Gas Fittings for the supply of gas for automotive use;

(h) work that is specifically designed to be effected by a person without the use of a tool; or

(i) the manufacture of Appliances or Natural Gas Fittings.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

That's ok, I'll ask my contacts in Athlone to tell me what caused the explosion.

Good man, you'll be able to discuss you're new found understanding of gas safety:D

The case against the fruit loop is still on going and just waiting for RGII to do there thing:pac:, as it's on going I'm not getting in to it in to much detail I live near Athlone and like a fly to poo I was down the road when it went up:eek: I'm like a talisman for big bangs.

Billy Bunting

God loves a tryer, and he really is a tryer :rolleyes:

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

While we're into copying & pasting regulations....

You don't need to be an RGI to fit LPG appliances....

What categories of work do the Regulations not deem Gas Works?

For the purposes of section 9G(3) of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999, works which are gas works’ does not include–

(a) the installation, removal, repair, servicing, maintenance or replacement of Natural Gas Fittings designed to be used by Commercial Gas Customers;

(b) the installation, removal, repair, servicing, maintenance or replacement of Natural Gas Fittings designed to be used by Industrial Gas Customers;

(c) the installation, removal, repair, servicing, maintenance or replacement of Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Fittings;

(d) the design of gas works;

(e) work on the Point of Delivery;

(f) work upstream of the Point of Delivery;

(g) work on Natural Gas Fittings for the supply of gas for automotive use;

(h) work that is specifically designed to be effected by a person without the use of a tool; or

(i) the manufacture of Appliances or Natural Gas Fittings.

Just when I was starting to like you, you go and ruin it, LPG is now covered under Gas Regs, it has been since the middle of last year and only a RGI can work on any gas works involved in LPG installations, have a look at the RGII web site, it's there to help people who are a little confused, and how sad are you looking that up, it doesn't impact on the safety of a lpg installation just because regs are now enforce.

eager tortoise

Appreciate there are gas safety issues, but don't people keep cylinders indoors all the time for use in supersers and the like? What's the regulation on that?

Also, in relation to installing an LPG cooker, can you tell me how the installation process is different to just changing the cylinder (which, I assume, can be done by anyone)?

coylemj

gary71 wrote: »

... have a look at the RGII web site, it's there to help people who are a little confused, and how sad are you looking that up, it doesn't impact on the safety of a lpg installation just because regs are now enforce.

I'm confused?

I got that quote from the RGII website which specifically says 'Natural Gas' only when referring to 'gas works', here is the link.....

http://www.rgii.ie/about-us/the-rgii-register.2713.html

The regulation defining 'gas works' I copied and pasted from this link....

http://www.rgii.ie/_fileupload/RGI%20Documents/CER/Cer_09_083-B.pdf

Billy Bunting

http://www.rgii.ie/news/lpg-gas-work-regulation.6612.html

Supersers meet current regs.

Fitting the bottle inside or out will alter the installation very little, it's just a hole through the wall, done to regs obviously.

eager tortoise

eager tortoise wrote: »

Appreciate there are gas safety issues, but don't people keep cylinders indoors all the time for use in supersers and the like? What's the regulation on that?

you are limited with the rooms you can use one in and the ventilation requirements a minimum of 6500 mm2 are large.

eager tortoise wrote: »

Also, in relation to installing an LPG cooker, can you tell me how the installation process is different to just changing the cylinder (which, I assume, can be done by anyone)?

For me it's not about the ease in changing out a cylinder but the position of the cylinder and it's components, the regulator on a butane cylinder tends to be cheap and nasty, i'v had more than one over the years that has leaked and luckily they were all outside, it's because of the fear of it leaking I wouldn't have one in my house or fit one, that's a fear based on experience with gas so the question I feel you should be asking is "what is the safest gas installation for me"

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

I'm confused?

Yep, you have been from the start, you've tried to put a unqualified opinion across on a subject you have no knowledge or experience in other than your own at home and what you've heard down the pub, the thing you don't seem to understand is with most gas engineers safety, safety, safety is the paramount thought on any advise or work done, it's built on a understanding and knowledge of gas and gas safety, I served a 4 year apprenticeship to be a gas engineer and i'm always surprised how quickly people like you make a judgement based on very little practical experience.

coylemj

gary71 wrote: »

Scare story's are only used for people with no common sense or children, but if you want one I'll remind you of the pub that was blown up in Athlone a few months ago:eek:, that was caused by another fella who thought there was no inherent risk.

The gas explosion in the pub in Athlone was caused by some idiot trying to unfreeze outdoor gas pipes with an oxyacetylene torch, remember that this was in the week before Christmas 2010 during the extremely cold weather.

So I repeat my original question: give me an instance where there was an accident or fatality caused by someone keeping a butane gas cylinder indoors?

deandean

Can you have a problem with outdoor yellow (Butane) cylinders when it's very cold; can it get too cold for the liquid to turn to gas in the cylinder?

I had this problem when trying to get the gas BBQ going last Christmas 12 months, it was about -5 or -10 DegC and the only way I could get gas was to put the cylinder into a big basin of warm water!

aujopimur

coylemj wrote: »

So tell us about an incident where a gas cylinder located indoors leaked and caused an fire or explosion or even an 'actual scare story'.

I witnessed one of those 25lb yellow butane explode in site canteen about 30yrs. years ago, part of blew thru' an insulated cold storage building and lodged in a frozen beef carcas.

heinbloed

That gary71 and Billy Bunting have not much more than ferrie tales to talk about when it comes to building regulations etc. as we have seen in the plumbing and heating forum before....

Well asked, coylemj, the right question and they start to stammer.

Now aujopimur tells us another one.

Evidence please. The accident report. Which abbatoire was that? Which fire brigade was involved? The insurance report? A court house protocol number where the case was dealt with?
Accident reports have to be kept for decades, we can follow **** telling when it's about explosions.

Nothing like that - I'm sure....