Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

IE to close lines.

Options
2

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    newmug wrote: »
    :eek::eek::eek: I am astonished by that post! Why is ANYBODY working in CIE on a cent over the minimum wage? Min wgae is E8.65 per hour, we'll say a 40 hour week, thats E346 per week! Anybody should be happy with that in this day and age, its almost DOUBLE the dole! And if min wage was back at 2000 levels, well....:rolleyes:

    Having worked with people on minimum wage for several years, I wouldn't trust them with my life in a safety-critical role like driving a train or signalling. Especially here where we don't have a consistent system for stopping a train passing a signal at danger(just warnings that can be ignored), you want the person driving your train to know what he's doing and to be responsible. I also don't think people will be lining up for the unsocial and long hours, tedium, possibility of striking a person on the line and responsibility(and attendant legal risks in case of an accident in terms of civil and criminal suits) at minimum wage. Don't give me the old line of people being happy to just have a job- Irish people have shown time and again that they don't take up low paying jobs. They're dominated by immigrants. Take a look around your local supermarket, or your office's cleaning staff.

    Train driving is a somewhat skilled job. It's not as skilled anymore as it was and wages haven't reflected that due to union influence, but it is still a responsible job that takes training(which you so lightly ignore) and requires more responsibility than stacking shelves does. Similarly with (some) other railway jobs. Minimum wage works for some jobs, but not all.

    Seeing as you seem to know more about buses than trains, what would you call a fair salary for a bus driver?
    newmug wrote: »
    1 signalman should do and he should be controlling them from a computer somewhere

    So, trains should only run from 9-5 and none at all for an hour while the one signalman takes his lunch? You need a couple of relief staff to keep the railway open for longer than a single shift. And signalling is already done by a computer, the entire Cork line is controlled from one guy sitting in Connolly station, nowhere near the trains he's controlling. Cough up some more funding and the plan is to centralise the entire country's network there.

    I'm all for cutting costs, and driver's salaries are a hot issue worldwide with increasing automation in the job, but you're really living in a fantasy land here.


  • Options
    #33
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Are those staff whose job it is to signal trains off with a signal flag not signalmen?

    No, I am not sure what their actual grade is but they are not signalmen. This duty is often preformed by a station inspector.


  • Options
    #34
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    flyingsnail wrote: »
    No, I am not sure what their actual grade is but they are not signalmen. This duty is often preformed by a station inspector.
    OK, I had thought that anyone giving a signal to a train driver using a semifore flag would have to be a signalman or at least be paid at that grade whether they be located at the station or in a signal box pulling levers for trackside signals.


  • Options
    #35
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    OK, I had thought that anyone giving a signal to a train driver using a semifore flag would have to be a signalman or at least be paid at that grade whether they be located at the station or in a signal box pulling levers for trackside signals.

    Flag is just saying the doors are closed and there's no one stuck between the train and the platform or whatever. It's not really a job that needs to be done TBH(doors are all interlocked these days so the train won't move unless they're closed), and can be/is easily replaced with CCTV.


  • Options
    #36
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    Flag is just saying the doors are closed and there's no one stuck between the train and the platform or whatever. It's not really a job that needs to be done TBH(doors are all interlocked these days so the train won't move unless they're closed), and can be/is easily replaced with CCTV.
    In some stations trains wont depart unless they have received a signal from the station flagman yet these flagmen are not present in all stations. why I wonder are they only required in some stations but not others? and why are they doing this job if it is not necessary?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Niles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Niles


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There are still signalmen on platforms in many stations including Carlow Newbridge Kildare etc etc, they may be legacy positions regulated and preserved by the unions? or may be just some antiquated regulations insisting on them? either way they could easily be given statutory redundancy and those salaries saved.

    They wouldn't be acting as signalmen though (not sure what they're known as exactly), they'd probably still be needed for booking office duties etc. From memory many stations often had the signalperson perform ticket selling/general station duties in addition to their signalling duties. Incidentally not all stations retained a staff member after their cabin closed, for instance Rathdrum has been unstaffed since the re-signalling project 2008 (on one occasion passengers where left standing there after an empty train derailed and there was nobody there to tell them of the problem).

    Personally I think there should be some form of staffing at most mainline stations, simply so there someone to answer enquiries and the like. Also reduces the likelihood of vandalism, etc.


  • Options
    #38
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    In some stations trains wont depart unless they have received a signal from the station flagman yet these flagmen are not present in all stations. why I wonder are they only required in some stations but not others? and why are they doing this job if it is not necessary?
    In Berlin it's the same. Some staions have poor visibility due to platform curvature etc. and require an extra pair of eyes to make sure nobody is caught in the doors before the train moves off.


  • Options
    #39
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,973 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Niles wrote: »
    They wouldn't be acting as signalmen though (not sure what they're known as exactly), they'd probably still be needed for booking office duties etc. From memory many stations often had the signalperson perform ticket selling/general station duties in addition to their signalling duties. Incidentally not all stations retained a staff member after their cabin closed, for instance Rathdrum has been unstaffed since the re-signalling project 2008 (on one occasion passengers where left standing there after an empty train derailed and there was nobody there to tell them of the problem).

    Personally I think there should be some form of staffing at most mainline stations, simply so there someone to answer enquiries and the like. Also reduces the likelihood of vandalism, etc.

    Drivers nowadays have to take on many of the safety critical roles of both train guards and stationmasters. A guard was 100% responsible for the management of a train, including loading and unloading passengers at stations while a stationmaster ensured that a train is allowed to proceed; this puts a lot of responsibities onto a driver which are obviously impossible to do from the cab of a train. Part of the duties of the man on the platform is to undertake some of the duties of a guard and stationmaster. When this is done, they visually alert the driver when all the doors are clear and that is safe to move away which was a role undertaken by a stationmaster/haltmaster. The legacy of automatic doors, CCTV and straight platforms make this a lot easier to monitor nowadays but there are still passengers who need help with luggage, kids, wheelchairs etc as well as the odd mishap.


  • Options
    #40
    ClovenHoof
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    Having worked with people on minimum wage for several years, I wouldn't trust them with my life

    Anyone else get a wiff of Partnership...:rolleyes:


  • Options
    #41
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    Anyone else get a wiff of Partnership...:rolleyes:

    I don't know what you mean. I worked in a supermarket for years and now work as a software developer for a private company. Never been in a union and no involvement in CIE through myself or family, just a Maynooth line commuter every day.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    no one in supermarkets is on minimum wage...


  • Options
    #43
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    no one in supermarkets is on minimum wage...

    True actually, it was something pitiful like 30c an hour over minimum as I recall.


  • Options
    #44
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    True actually, it was something pitiful like 30c an hour over minimum as I recall.

    yeah 30-40c and then a rise every year too. you'd be on around 15 an hour after 5 years. good money for the work if you stick with it.


  • Options
    #45
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    yeah 30-40c and then a rise every year too. you'd be on around 15 an hour after 5 years. good money for the work if you stick with it.

    in a supermarket? Oh no you wouldnt...unless you were management.


  • Options
    #46
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    corktina wrote: »
    in a supermarket? Oh no you wouldnt...unless you were management.

    Heavily unionised Tesco has increments of some description. It adds up to quite a bit for long servers.


  • Options
    #47
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    corktina wrote: »
    in a supermarket? Oh no you wouldnt...unless you were management.

    well I was on 11.90 after 4 years. longer term colleagues (general assistants) were on over 16...

    anyway this is OT, train drivers do not deserve to be only on min wage, it's a job that requires a lot of training, responsibility and knowledge (route learning, loco / unit reactions, braking dists etc) and definitely commands a reasonable premium.


  • Options
    #48
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    yeah 30-40c and then a rise every year too. you'd be on around 15 an hour after 5 years. good money for the work if you stick with it.

    This was in Dunnes, I think I got one raise in three years of working, though I have a feeling they forgot to move me to a new contract at some stage thanks to woeful administration. Maybe I should have pushed them, especially when I got extra responsibilities like ordering from suppliers because the managers were too lazy/incompetent to do it properly, but I didn't really care. You're right, a dedicated person can make a bit of dosh, but it's soul destroying work for some people, especially if you never progress.

    And yeah, supermarket longtermers are often in unions with some bargaining power, I never joined because I just needed the money for college and had zero intention of staying there, but we don't have Wal-Mart style retail employment in this country.


  • Options
    #49
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    well I was on 11.90 after 4 years. longer term colleagues (general assistants) were on over 16...

    anyway this is OT, train drivers do not deserve to be only on min wage, it's a job that requires a lot of training, responsibility and knowledge (route learning, loco / unit reactions, braking dists etc) and definitely commands a reasonable premium.

    Just like bus drivers!


  • Options
    #50
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Just like bus drivers!

    More like airline pilots or passenger ship captains considering the numbers of people carried, and particularly on fast InterCity services, which let's not forget do reach 100mph on Dublin - Cork.


  • Options
    #51
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    steamengine wrote: »
    More like airline pilots or passenger ship captains considering the numbers of people carried, and particularly on fast InterCity services, which let's not forget do reach 100mph on Dublin - Cork.
    Considering the number of people at risk in the case of driver error I would think the bus driver should be paid more, trains are on rails and boats on the water both places the general public won't be pottering about but the bus driver has to drive on motorways as well as through busy city and town streets!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Considering the number of people at risk in the case of driver error I would think the bus driver should be paid more, trains are on rails and boats on the water both places the general public won't be pottering about but the bus driver has to drive on motorways as well as through busy city and town streets!

    An interesting theory - pay rates linked to the risk of injury, or worse, to third parties, in the event of an accident due to driver error. For some reason I can't get my head around that one !!!


  • Options
    #53
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i had a pal who would never fly to england as it was unsafe compared to the ferry


    he's dead now...




    died on the ferry...









    plane crashed into it....


  • Options
    #54
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    :D


  • Options
    #55
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    steamengine wrote: »
    An interesting theory - pay rates linked to the risk of injury, or worse, to third parties, in the event of an accident due to driver error. For some reason I can't get my head around that one !!!
    That is what you were claiming for train drivers, stress etc and the number of lives they are responsible for


  • Options
    #56
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    That is what you were claiming for train drivers, stress etc and the number of lives they are responsible for

    Correct! Paid according to their competence and professionalism, for transporting potentially hundreds of people at a time, safely and quickly, from A to B. Therefore I think the role of an InterCity train driver is closer to that of an airline pilot or passenger ship captain, than that of a coach driver. Coach/bus maximum passenger numbers are considerably less, speeds slower and there is not nearly the same amount of kinetic energy at play.


  • Options
    #57
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Didn't DART drivers demand extra money when they added extra carraiges a few years ago

    I don't think they got it though

    Bit of a cheeky claim, would they volunteer to get paid less if they were running with just two carriages lol


  • Options
    #58
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    steamengine wrote: »
    Correct! Paid according to their competence and professionalism, for transporting potentially hundreds of people at a time, safely and quickly, from A to B. Therefore I think the role of an InterCity train driver is closer to that of an airline pilot or passenger ship captain, than that of a coach driver. Coach/bus maximum passenger numbers are considerably less, speeds slower and there is not nearly the same amount of kinetic energy at play.
    Oh I see now! It has nothing to do with skill but all about the amount of power you have to control, so horsepower = €

    You are also saying that bus and coach drivers are not competent or professional.....:D


  • Options
    #59
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Oh I see now! It has nothing to do with skill but all about the amount of power you have to control, so horsepower = €

    For the third time - the amount of passengers carried ! So I'd appreciate it if you didn't second guess what I'm stating.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You are also saying that bus and coach drivers are not competent or professional.....:D

    Please quote me where I stated that !


  • Options
    #60
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    steamengine wrote: »
    Correct! Paid according to their competence and professionalism, for transporting potentially hundreds of people at a time, safely and quickly, from A to B. Therefore I think the role of an InterCity train driver is closer to that of an airline pilot or passenger ship captain, than that of a coach driver. Coach/bus maximum passenger numbers are considerably less, speeds slower and there is not nearly the same amount of kinetic energy at play.
    So bus drivers do not earn anywhere as much as train drivers because they are not nearly as competent or professional?

    anyways all this talk of drivers leads back to the topic in hand as the salaries of train drivers adds to the prohibitive costs of keeping lesser used lines like the Nensgh branch line and the WRC open


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You are also saying that bus and coach drivers are not competent or professional.....:D

    Still waiting for the quote - where I stated that !!!


Advertisement