IE to close lines.

roundymac

IE are considering closing lightly used lines according to todays Irish Examiner.
They have already briefed Minister Varadkar, who agree's that IE have to maximse their potential even if that means closing routes. Among the first to go is believed to be Limerick-Ballybrophy. This line has carried 14000 passangers from Jan 1st to Sept, averaging out at 55 passangers a day. Competition from the newly opened M7 has meant that journey times by road are faster.

corktina

not unexpected.:( Which is next on list?

corktina

should be in c&t really i guess

Judgement Day

Full article below. There is the added irony that the rail line passes through Ireland's only Ecovillage at Cloughjordan http://www.thevillage.ie/. :rolleyes:

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

Full article below. There is the added irony that the rail line passes through Ireland's only Ecovillage at Cloughjordan

Only 55 out of 130 units either complete or being worked on. Sounds like it's Ireland's only ghost ecovillage.

Sorry, but I'm well skeptical of property developments down the country miles away from any centres of employment, and I don't think this one would provide any meaning amount of patronage to the nearby railway.

murphaph

What's the average daily usage between Athenry and Ennis? (just for comparison)

Is the timetable between Ballybrophy and Limerick any use for potential commuters or is it another example of a timetable drawn up for IE staff convenience rather than one designed to attract and retain an actual customer base (like the trains leaving Rosslare 5 mins before the ferry docked, at their own port)?

mikemac1

There was some potential there

The line was badly run for years with Irish rail and the station masters working their nine to five shift to suit themselves.

Leave Nenagh at eleven for Limerick and return at three in the afternoon
Handy for some shopping or lunch in the city centre but useless for anything else.

Volunteers set up a lobby group, surveys and questionnaires were done and success, the schedule was changed to a commuter service. Would get you to Limerick Colbert which is quite central before nine am.
The local TD's jumped in at the end to claim credit of course :rolleyes:

But it hasn't worked at all. Tens of thousands leave North Tipp for Limerick every morning, a large proportion of them students in UL or LIT.
But Bus Éireann and JJ Kavanaghs have that market wrapped up and Castleconnell station has no shuttle bus to UL

It's still a useful service to have there. From Nenagh to Dublin it's still the fastest way to Dublin even with the Ballybrophy change. Beats the bus easily

But locals don't use it, Cloughjordan/little Belfast is a ghost town with hardly any employment and Roscrea and Nenagh have sprawled outwards and away from the train stations

When I'm around, I use JJ Kavanaghs

And the service is doomed to be shut down if the locals won't use it but Irish Rail deserve their share of the blame for failing to adapt for years and years.

foggy_lad

roundymac wrote: »

IE are considering closing lightly used lines according to todays Irish Examiner.
They have already briefed Minister Varadkar, who agree's that IE have to maximse their potential even if that means closing routes. Among the first to go is believed to be Limerick-Ballybrophy. This line has carried 14000 passangers from Jan 1st to Sept, averaging out at 55 passangers a day. Competition from the newly opened M7 has meant that journey times by road are faster.

That figure of 14000 means Nothing!

How many passengers got on or off at any of the stations on the route not served by a normal Dublin-Limerick train? I would imagine just as many as the failed western rail corridor! close both lines before they destroy what railways we have left!

Judgement Day

foggy - you don't seriously believe that closing two more little used lines is going to make any substantial difference to IE's financial position or the future of the Irish railway system? What will be next - the WRC, Ballina and the Tralee line?

dowlingm

Didn't Alan Kelly just get money to paint the stations? Shades of West Cork indeed!

newmug

I can never understand how it costs so much to run these lines that they cant knock a profit out of it. 55 people on average per day is about a coach-load. I dont know how much it costs for a one-way ticket from Limerick to Ballybrophy, but say it was a tenner.

Thats E550 per day, thats E3850 per week! If it was a coach, you could buy a brand new one every year!

HOW can that not be profitable?

roundymac

newmug wrote: »

I can never understand how it costs so much to run these lines that they cant knock a profit out of it. 55 people on average per day is about a coach-load. I dont know how much it costs for a one-way ticket from Limerick to Ballybrophy, but say it was a tenner.

Thats E550 per day, thats E3850 per week! If it was a coach, you could buy a brand new one every year!

HOW can that not be profitable?

Add in fuel, wages, insurence, esb/watercharges, servicing equiptment. Profit, what profit?

goingnowhere

newmug wrote: »

I can never understand how it costs so much to run these lines that they cant knock a profit out of it. 55 people on average per day is about a coach-load. I dont know how much it costs for a one-way ticket from Limerick to Ballybrophy, but say it was a tenner.

Thats E550 per day, thats E3850 per week! If it was a coach, you could buy a brand new one every year!

HOW can that not be profitable?

Drivers starting salary 38k after 2 years training, add 3 signalmen on similar money and then a guard on 30k, say 200k allowing for employers PRSI, pension etc, thats 3850 per week (coincidence eh?) before you pay for the gatekeepers, fuel, the train and track.

Income side, child/student/free travel pass result in a low yield

newmug

roundymac wrote: »

Add in fuel, wages, insurence, esb/watercharges, servicing equiptment. Profit, what profit?

To keep with the coach comparason, even if 99% of what you take in goes on overheads, you'd still have a profit! Aswell as that you'd have the service available to the people, and you'd be providing jobs to keep the show on the road.

How far is it from Lim to BB? How much is a one-way ticket? And would anyone have a breakdown of what IE pays on average to run a service per mile of track?

Judgement Day

CIE/IE have wished to close the entire railway down since the 1st McKinsey report back in the 1970s. These latest proposed closures are all part of the 'close the railways by stealth' option. Facts, figures, fares and costs play no part in the operation of either Ballybrophy/Limerick or Limerick/Waterford. Ballybrophy should have been provided with a direct curve facing the Dublin direction when the place was remodelled some years back but look what they did instead. There's no hope for Irish railways with the CIE in charge, and now with the No Trains Authority and a Minister who knows about as much about railways as my big toe, the end is nigh.

roundymac

newmug wrote: »

To keep with the coach comparason, even if 99% of what you take in goes on overheads, you'd still have a profit! Aswell as that you'd have the service available to the people, and you'd be providing jobs to keep the show on the road.

How far is it from Lim to BB? How much is a one-way ticket? And would anyone have a breakdown of what IE pays on average to run a service per mile of track?

1% is not a profit.

LXFlyer

The gatekeepers are one of the principal problems on both the Limerick/Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction/Waterford lines - there are just so many of them!

Judgement Day

lxflyer wrote: »

The gatekeepers are one of the principal problems on both the Limerick/Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction/Waterford lines - there are just so many of them!

Arguably but I maintain that the main problem is the CIE mindset that sees cutbacks and closures as the answer to losses rather than innovation.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Arguably but I maintain that the main problem is the CIE mindset that sees cutbacks and closures as the answer to losses rather than innovation.

In which case how do you rearrange and innovate this line?

More services?
Different times of service?
Cheaper fares?
Faster services?
Close or automate level crossings?
Better connections to other services?

Or something else unlisted here?

Let's hear some decent suggestions of what you reckon an operator would need to do in order to turn the line around

foggy_lad

newmug wrote: »

I can never understand how it costs so much to run these lines that they cant knock a profit out of it. 55 people on average per day is about a coach-load. I dont know how much it costs for a one-way ticket from Limerick to Ballybrophy, but say it was a tenner.

Thats E550 per day, thats E3850 per week! If it was a coach, you could buy a brand new one every year!

HOW can that not be profitable?

The cost of doing a weekend special is astonishing when the gatekeepers overtime is counted up! Whatever about the politics of closing the whole railway by steath the turn of the century operating procedures are the biggest problem which will never be overcome without weeding out these obsolete lines where nobody needs or uses the railway and building new commuter lines which people will use.

There is no place in a modern railway for all the sentimental throwbacks to the good/bad old days of steam, or trying to keep pointless historic lines open. Limerick-Waterford is only open still because it was used for beet and cement for so many years. build a proper railway or shut the lot down!

corktina

on the Mallow killarney line they appear to be building an overpass to eliminate an occupation crossing.How much more cost effective that would be if it was a manned crossing!

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

on the Mallow killarney line they appear to be building an overpass to eliminate an occupation crossing.How much more cost effective that would be if it was a manned crossing!

Where possible, they will get rid of accommodation crossings for safety reasons and in some places to increase line speeds.

newmug

roundymac wrote: »

1% is not a profit.

Eh, I think you'll find that it is! 0% is breaking even, and its what the vast majority of business's in Ireland are doing at the moment, so 1% is nothing to be sneezed at.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Drivers starting salary 38k after 2 years training, add 3 signalmen on similar money and then a guard on 30k, say 200k allowing for employers PRSI, pension etc, thats 3850 per week (coincidence eh?) before you pay for the gatekeepers, fuel, the train and track.

Income side, child/student/free travel pass result in a low yield

:eek::eek::eek: I am astonished by that post! Why is ANYBODY working in CIE on a cent over the minimum wage? Min wgae is E8.65 per hour, we'll say a 40 hour week, thats E346 per week! Anybody should be happy with that in this day and age, its almost DOUBLE the dole! And if min wage was back at 2000 levels, well....:rolleyes:

So lets say E350 per week (18,200 per year) for a driver (irrelevant how long it takes to train, although 2 years is ridiculous), 1 signalman should do and he should be controlling them from a computer somewhere, maybe a guard who should double as the return driver, thats E54,600 in wages per year. Double that for employers PRSI, pension should be up to the individual, child/student/free pass and gatekeepers should be eliminated etc., you're looking at about E110,000. That still leaves you with E90,000 to play with for fuel, expendibles etc. Train and track are capital expenses and should be paid for from the surplus 90,000, and you still should have some left! Thats how a proper business would be ran.

Park Royal

I dont think there's too many signalmen left ?....aint it all computerised?..

signalcabins closed everywhere .....signalling centralised?

foggy_lad

Park Royal wrote: »

I dont think there's too many signalmen left ?....aint it all computerised?..

signalcabins closed everywhere .....signalling centralised?

There are still signalmen on platforms in many stations including Carlow Newbridge Kildare etc etc, they may be legacy positions regulated and preserved by the unions? or may be just some antiquated regulations insisting on them? either way they could easily be given statutory redundancy and those salaries saved.

flyingsnail

Park Royal wrote: »

I dont think there's too many signalmen left ?....aint it all computerised?..

signalcabins closed everywhere .....signalling centralised?

On that line there is a signal cabin at Killonan Junction, Birdhill and Roscrea

newmug

newmug wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek: I am astonished by that post! Why is ANYBODY working in CIE on a cent over the minimum wage? Min wgae is E8.65 per hour, we'll say a 40 hour week, thats E346 per week! Anybody should be happy with that in this day and age, its almost DOUBLE the dole! And if min wage was back at 2000 levels, well....:rolleyes:

So lets say E350 per week (18,200 per year) for a driver (irrelevant how long it takes to train, although 2 years is ridiculous), 1 signalman should do and he should be controlling them from a computer somewhere, maybe a guard who should double as the return driver, thats E54,600 in wages per year. Double that for employers PRSI, pension should be up to the individual, child/student/free pass and gatekeepers should be eliminated etc., you're looking at about E110,000. That still leaves you with E90,000 to play with for fuel, expendibles etc. Train and track are capital expenses and should be paid for from the surplus 90,000, and you still should have some left! Thats how a proper business would be ran.

Just to add to that, perfectly servicable and usable locos and carraiges should not be scrapped one second before there usefullness is fully expended.

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

In which case how do you rearrange and innovate this line?

More services?
Different times of service?
Cheaper fares?
Faster services?
Close or automate level crossings?
Better connections to other services?

Or something else unlisted here?

Let's hear some decent suggestions of what you reckon an operator would need to do in order to turn the line around

Any serious attempt to renovate the line would have to involve building a direct curve at Ballybrophy and closing or moving Ballybrophy station. The line needs to be upgraded to allow decent speeds. Once this is done through trains between Dublin and Limerick could be inaugurated. Serious marketing/special offers and a new timetable to attract traffic from Nenagh (pop.7,000) and Roscrea (pop. 5,000) and Birr!
Automate crossings where possible and reduce the number of accommodation crossings.

Lease excess railway property or better still encourage courier companies to set-up depots at the existing stations – rent free – providing they use the railway service. All the same, tried and failed solutions have never worked before and if Irish railways are to be saved the problems need to be approached in a radical way.

Don't ask me about costings but if part of CIE/IE's subsidy was diverted into projects like this instead of just being used to shore up their annual losses it would be a better use of the funds. Anyway, it's not going to happen.

roundymac

Why not use NEWMUGS 1% profit.That will go a long way.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are still signalmen on platforms in many stations including Carlow Newbridge Kildare etc etc,

100% unlikely given that three signal boxes closed years ago :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

100% unlikely given that three signal boxes closed years ago :rolleyes:

Are those staff whose job it is to signal trains off with a signal flag not signalmen?

Jehuty42

newmug wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek: I am astonished by that post! Why is ANYBODY working in CIE on a cent over the minimum wage? Min wgae is E8.65 per hour, we'll say a 40 hour week, thats E346 per week! Anybody should be happy with that in this day and age, its almost DOUBLE the dole! And if min wage was back at 2000 levels, well....:rolleyes:

Having worked with people on minimum wage for several years, I wouldn't trust them with my life in a safety-critical role like driving a train or signalling. Especially here where we don't have a consistent system for stopping a train passing a signal at danger(just warnings that can be ignored), you want the person driving your train to know what he's doing and to be responsible. I also don't think people will be lining up for the unsocial and long hours, tedium, possibility of striking a person on the line and responsibility(and attendant legal risks in case of an accident in terms of civil and criminal suits) at minimum wage. Don't give me the old line of people being happy to just have a job- Irish people have shown time and again that they don't take up low paying jobs. They're dominated by immigrants. Take a look around your local supermarket, or your office's cleaning staff.

Train driving is a somewhat skilled job. It's not as skilled anymore as it was and wages haven't reflected that due to union influence, but it is still a responsible job that takes training(which you so lightly ignore) and requires more responsibility than stacking shelves does. Similarly with (some) other railway jobs. Minimum wage works for some jobs, but not all.

Seeing as you seem to know more about buses than trains, what would you call a fair salary for a bus driver?

newmug wrote: »

1 signalman should do and he should be controlling them from a computer somewhere

So, trains should only run from 9-5 and none at all for an hour while the one signalman takes his lunch? You need a couple of relief staff to keep the railway open for longer than a single shift. And signalling is already done by a computer, the entire Cork line is controlled from one guy sitting in Connolly station, nowhere near the trains he's controlling. Cough up some more funding and the plan is to centralise the entire country's network there.

I'm all for cutting costs, and driver's salaries are a hot issue worldwide with increasing automation in the job, but you're really living in a fantasy land here.

flyingsnail

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are those staff whose job it is to signal trains off with a signal flag not signalmen?

No, I am not sure what their actual grade is but they are not signalmen. This duty is often preformed by a station inspector.

foggy_lad

flyingsnail wrote: »

No, I am not sure what their actual grade is but they are not signalmen. This duty is often preformed by a station inspector.

OK, I had thought that anyone giving a signal to a train driver using a semifore flag would have to be a signalman or at least be paid at that grade whether they be located at the station or in a signal box pulling levers for trackside signals.

Jehuty42

foggy_lad wrote: »

OK, I had thought that anyone giving a signal to a train driver using a semifore flag would have to be a signalman or at least be paid at that grade whether they be located at the station or in a signal box pulling levers for trackside signals.

Flag is just saying the doors are closed and there's no one stuck between the train and the platform or whatever. It's not really a job that needs to be done TBH(doors are all interlocked these days so the train won't move unless they're closed), and can be/is easily replaced with CCTV.

foggy_lad

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Flag is just saying the doors are closed and there's no one stuck between the train and the platform or whatever. It's not really a job that needs to be done TBH(doors are all interlocked these days so the train won't move unless they're closed), and can be/is easily replaced with CCTV.

In some stations trains wont depart unless they have received a signal from the station flagman yet these flagmen are not present in all stations. why I wonder are they only required in some stations but not others? and why are they doing this job if it is not necessary?

Niles

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are still signalmen on platforms in many stations including Carlow Newbridge Kildare etc etc, they may be legacy positions regulated and preserved by the unions? or may be just some antiquated regulations insisting on them? either way they could easily be given statutory redundancy and those salaries saved.

They wouldn't be acting as signalmen though (not sure what they're known as exactly), they'd probably still be needed for booking office duties etc. From memory many stations often had the signalperson perform ticket selling/general station duties in addition to their signalling duties. Incidentally not all stations retained a staff member after their cabin closed, for instance Rathdrum has been unstaffed since the re-signalling project 2008 (on one occasion passengers where left standing there after an empty train derailed and there was nobody there to tell them of the problem).

Personally I think there should be some form of staffing at most mainline stations, simply so there someone to answer enquiries and the like. Also reduces the likelihood of vandalism, etc.

murphaph

foggy_lad wrote: »

In some stations trains wont depart unless they have received a signal from the station flagman yet these flagmen are not present in all stations. why I wonder are they only required in some stations but not others? and why are they doing this job if it is not necessary?

In Berlin it's the same. Some staions have poor visibility due to platform curvature etc. and require an extra pair of eyes to make sure nobody is caught in the doors before the train moves off.

Losty Dublin

Niles wrote: »

They wouldn't be acting as signalmen though (not sure what they're known as exactly), they'd probably still be needed for booking office duties etc. From memory many stations often had the signalperson perform ticket selling/general station duties in addition to their signalling duties. Incidentally not all stations retained a staff member after their cabin closed, for instance Rathdrum has been unstaffed since the re-signalling project 2008 (on one occasion passengers where left standing there after an empty train derailed and there was nobody there to tell them of the problem).

Personally I think there should be some form of staffing at most mainline stations, simply so there someone to answer enquiries and the like. Also reduces the likelihood of vandalism, etc.

Drivers nowadays have to take on many of the safety critical roles of both train guards and stationmasters. A guard was 100% responsible for the management of a train, including loading and unloading passengers at stations while a stationmaster ensured that a train is allowed to proceed; this puts a lot of responsibities onto a driver which are obviously impossible to do from the cab of a train. Part of the duties of the man on the platform is to undertake some of the duties of a guard and stationmaster. When this is done, they visually alert the driver when all the doors are clear and that is safe to move away which was a role undertaken by a stationmaster/haltmaster. The legacy of automatic doors, CCTV and straight platforms make this a lot easier to monitor nowadays but there are still passengers who need help with luggage, kids, wheelchairs etc as well as the odd mishap.

ClovenHoof

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Having worked with people on minimum wage for several years, I wouldn't trust them with my life

Anyone else get a wiff of Partnership...:rolleyes:

Jehuty42

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Anyone else get a wiff of Partnership...:rolleyes:

I don't know what you mean. I worked in a supermarket for years and now work as a software developer for a private company. Never been in a union and no involvement in CIE through myself or family, just a Maynooth line commuter every day.

Cookie_Monster

no one in supermarkets is on minimum wage...

Jehuty42

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no one in supermarkets is on minimum wage...

True actually, it was something pitiful like 30c an hour over minimum as I recall.

Cookie_Monster

Jehuty42 wrote: »

True actually, it was something pitiful like 30c an hour over minimum as I recall.

yeah 30-40c and then a rise every year too. you'd be on around 15 an hour after 5 years. good money for the work if you stick with it.

corktina

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yeah 30-40c and then a rise every year too. you'd be on around 15 an hour after 5 years. good money for the work if you stick with it.

in a supermarket? Oh no you wouldnt...unless you were management.

L1011

corktina wrote: »

in a supermarket? Oh no you wouldnt...unless you were management.

Heavily unionised Tesco has increments of some description. It adds up to quite a bit for long servers.

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

in a supermarket? Oh no you wouldnt...unless you were management.

well I was on 11.90 after 4 years. longer term colleagues (general assistants) were on over 16...

anyway this is OT, train drivers do not deserve to be only on min wage, it's a job that requires a lot of training, responsibility and knowledge (route learning, loco / unit reactions, braking dists etc) and definitely commands a reasonable premium.

Jehuty42

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yeah 30-40c and then a rise every year too. you'd be on around 15 an hour after 5 years. good money for the work if you stick with it.

This was in Dunnes, I think I got one raise in three years of working, though I have a feeling they forgot to move me to a new contract at some stage thanks to woeful administration. Maybe I should have pushed them, especially when I got extra responsibilities like ordering from suppliers because the managers were too lazy/incompetent to do it properly, but I didn't really care. You're right, a dedicated person can make a bit of dosh, but it's soul destroying work for some people, especially if you never progress.

And yeah, supermarket longtermers are often in unions with some bargaining power, I never joined because I just needed the money for college and had zero intention of staying there, but we don't have Wal-Mart style retail employment in this country.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well I was on 11.90 after 4 years. longer term colleagues (general assistants) were on over 16...

anyway this is OT, train drivers do not deserve to be only on min wage, it's a job that requires a lot of training, responsibility and knowledge (route learning, loco / unit reactions, braking dists etc) and definitely commands a reasonable premium.

Just like bus drivers!

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just like bus drivers!

More like airline pilots or passenger ship captains considering the numbers of people carried, and particularly on fast InterCity services, which let's not forget do reach 100mph on Dublin - Cork.

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

More like airline pilots or passenger ship captains considering the numbers of people carried, and particularly on fast InterCity services, which let's not forget do reach 100mph on Dublin - Cork.

Considering the number of people at risk in the case of driver error I would think the bus driver should be paid more, trains are on rails and boats on the water both places the general public won't be pottering about but the bus driver has to drive on motorways as well as through busy city and town streets!