Bus Eireann prices

markpb

PseudoFamous wrote: »

and what was the percentage increase for diesel over the last three years? bit more than 8%, I suspect.

Do they reduce their prices when the price of diesel falls? If the price of diesel is rising so much, should we expect price hikes from Aircoach and JJ Kavanagh?

Niles

My main concern is that in the same period people's wages have generally decreased or remained the same... this trend is unlikely to change any time soon so it's worrying what the case may be in a few years time. So far Wexford Bus have stated that they'll raising commuter/multi-day fares, not singles/returns, so that may give them an edge when it comes to places from Gorey southwards. Unless of course they too choose to increase their remaining fares at some point.

That said, I understand the reasons behind the increases. But it's not going to make public transport particularly attractive.

PseudoFamous

markpb wrote: »

Do they reduce their prices when the price of diesel falls?

The price of diesel has net increased over the last years, so despite the answer probably being "no", I'm not able to commit to that answer.

markpb wrote: »

If the price of diesel is rising so much, should we expect price hikes from Aircoach and JJ Kavanagh?

Yes. The price of operation is increasing, so it is fair to assume that the price of a ticket will increase. A private service aims to make profit, and if the cost of operation increases, so does the ticket price.

markpb

PseudoFamous wrote: »

A private service aims to make profit, and if the cost of operation increases, so does the ticket price.

Not necessarily. A private company that does not enjoy an effective monopoly won't push up their prices if it means they'll lose customers or cause their customers to buy their product less often.

foggy_lad

THe website is still showing the old fares but Dublin to Carlow is now €14 return a jump of €2 which seems excessive?

Service 4
11.00 : Adult Single
12.00 : Adult Rtn
11.00 : Adult Day Rtn
7.50 : Child Single
9.00 : Child Return
8.00 : Child Day Rtn
9.00 : Student Single
10.50 : Student Rtn
9.00 : Adult MW Rtn
7.00 : Child MW Rtn
31.00 : Family Rtn
37.50 : Adult 10 Jny
33.00 : Student 10 Jny

Boscoirl

Single fare from Clonmel to Limerick is now €13, up from €11 (but at least now a return fare is cheaper than 2 singles!) When I first started getting this bus it was €8(~2008)

Used to get this bus regularly, but now will go back to using my car, petrol and toll for the tunnel work out cheaper, and its twice as quick

bk

PseudoFamous wrote: »

and what was the percentage increase for diesel over the last three years? bit more than 8%, I suspect.

And what percentage of Bus Eireanns operating costs is diesel?

Answer: less then 9%

Well over 50% of the operating cost is salary.

Increases in diesel prices should have very little impact on ticket prices. Not if they didn't have a subsidised monopoly.

Niles

foggy_lad wrote: »

THe website is still showing the old fares but Dublin to Carlow is now €14 return a jump of €2 which seems excessive?

Did the 004 increase in service frequency and/or get faster journey times (avoiding villages) in the last year? The reason I ask is that when the 002 route increased its service in 2009 the fares went up twice within a month or so, the second increase was by €2 in my case and supposedly due to the better service (even though places like Inch/Clough got a reduced service but that's another issue).

Not trying to justify it mind, but that might be why.

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

Not necessarily. A private company that does not enjoy an effective monopoly won't push up their prices if it means they'll lose customers or cause their customers to buy their product less often.

You say BE have a monopoly in the same breath as you compare prices with direct competitors. Typical C&T BS, twisting the facts to suit your arguement.

Vic_08

Niles wrote: »

Did the 004 increase in service frequency and/or get faster journey times (avoiding villages) in the last year?

Yes. Altered timetable with wider range of departures and non-stop Carlow-Dublin.

It is also worth noting that Carlow-Dublin in particular has much lower fares in comparison with many other journeys of similar distance on other routes.

Niles wrote: »

The reason I ask is that when the 002 route increased its service in 2009 the fares went up twice within a month or so, the second increase was by €2 in my case and supposedly due to the better service (even though places like Inch/Clough got a reduced service but that's another issue).

Inch and Clough are barely villages, there must be thousands of places across the country with larger populations than these that have no public transport whatsoever.

It is interesting that you make that comment after yourself and others have also complained about the longer journey times due to the extra stops. I think you will find that catering for both of those concerns at the same time is quite impossible.

foggy_lad

Niles wrote: »

Did the 004 increase in service frequency and/or get faster journey times (avoiding villages) in the last year? The reason I ask is that when the 002 route increased its service in 2009 the fares went up twice within a month or so, the second increase was by €2 in my case and supposedly due to the better service (even though places like Inch/Clough got a reduced service but that's another issue).

Not trying to justify it mind, but that might be why.

AFAIK there are less daily services after the route was changed and they are spread out more evenly meaning that at peak times there used to be more frequent buses but now there is less capacity and empty coaches travelling through the night competing with the operator who was already providing services to and from the airport.

Also the journey times have increased despite losing stops at Castledermot, Kilcullen and Naas because the buses travel painfully slow at 80kph on the motorway and Naas rd when they are allowed do 100kph. this is due to the sheer stupidity of the company in outsourcing the timetable production to some company that may not even be in Ireland and who may never have seen or travelled the route! Instead of cutting the time allowed for the section to Carlow by 10 minutes they added 5 minutes! Most coaches can get to Carlow now with 10-20minutes to spare if they drive at the speed limit on the motorway also Bus Eireann delay passengers even more by the stupid stop at Red Cow Park & Ride which is used a few times a week.

It looks like they are trying to make the Train more attractive!

markpb

Vic_08 wrote: »

You say BE have a monopoly in the same breath as you compare prices with direct competitors. Typical C&T BS, twisting the facts to suit your arguement.

You need to read before you criticise - I was extremely specific when I said effective monopoly. If they have 90% or greater of the market share, they have an effective monopoly. 90% was enough to see Microsoft and other large companies sued for abuse of monopoly.

Bus Eireann are big enough that they're able to push up prices to cover an increase in costs. Smaller companies don't (generally) have that luxury which is why most private operators haven't put up their prices.

btw I'm not criticising BE for putting up their prices, I'm just saying that the excuse that diesel has gone up is not enough of a reason.

LXFlyer

foggy_lad wrote: »

this is due to the sheer stupidity of the company in outsourcing the timetable production to some company that may not even be in Ireland and who may never have seen or travelled the route!

On what basis are you making this assertion?

Or is it an assumption?

pelluci

foggy_lad wrote: »

THe website is still showing the old fares but Dublin to Carlow is now €14 return a jump of €2 which seems excessive?

Not as excessive as the Adult Midweek Return, which is also €14, a €5 increase

Adult Single €11.40
Student Single €9.50
Child Single €5.70
Adult Midweek Return €13.30
Child Midweek Return €7.60
Adult Day Return €13.30
Child Day Return €7.60
Adult Return €13.30
Student Return €11.40
Child Return €8.55
Family Return €30.88
Adult 10 Journey €39.90
Student 10 Journey €33.25

Niles

Vic_08 wrote: »

Inch and Clough are barely villages, there must be thousands of places across the country with larger populations than these that have no public transport whatsoever.

It is interesting that you make that comment after yourself and others have also complained about the longer journey times due to the extra stops. I think you will find that catering for both of those concerns at the same time is quite impossible.

I don't believe I complained about longer journey times to cater for extra stops (others may have), I merely pointed out that as being the reason why Wexford Bus has the edge over Bus Éireann in terms of journey times. It was more a statement of fact than an actual complaint.

I understand Inch/Clough are barely villages, I just meant that in the case of these locations the increase in fare may not be reflective of the actual service level. Although in fairness local fares (to/from Gorey) remained the same.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

On what basis are you making this assertion?

Or is it an assumption?

Information from a Bus Eireann driver after the timetable was changed, he stated drivers were not consulted in any way about the changes and that an outside company was creating the timetables purely from information on the routes and passenger numbers taken over the last year.

pelluci wrote: »

Not as excessive as the Adult Midweek Return, which is also €14, a €5 increase

Adult Single €11.40
Student Single €9.50
Child Single €5.70
Adult Midweek Return €13.30
Child Midweek Return €7.60
Adult Day Return €13.30
Child Day Return €7.60
Adult Return €13.30
Student Return €11.40
Child Return €8.55
Family Return €30.88
Adult 10 Journey €39.90
Student 10 Journey €33.25

What route are these fares for?

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

You need to read before you criticise - I was extremely specific when I said effective monopoly. If they have 90% or greater of the market share, they have an effective monopoly. 90% was enough to see Microsoft and other large companies sued for abuse of monopoly.

90% of what? It is all very well pointing out that BE are the largest single scheduled operator but that in itself does not make a monopoly.

Take a look at the list of services for which licences have been granted by the DOT/NTA http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/List-of-Current-Licences-311211.xls This is not a small list of a few peripheral services, there are considerably more entries on that than BE routes.

Of course there are any number of ways you could measure the figures: Number of routes; Number of buses in use; Number of services provided; Annual route miles; Annual passenger miles, etc. As there is currently very little publicly available information on the entirety of the non-CIE services the best anyone can do is make vague estimates but the existence of over 600 licences alone is a good indicator that there is not a monopoly in any real sense.

Like it or not no matter what methods are used to organise public transport, from the most controlled to a completely deregulated free-for-all on a local level there are always going to be more instances of single operator routes than multiple choice ones. Many flows simply are not lucrative enough to sustain competing services and even on ones that are there is a natural tendency for a dominant operator to emerge.

The question then is how much of the busiest routes/flows that could reasonably be expected to sustain more than one operator do BE have all to themselves. The answer to that I would give a rough guess at approx 25-35%.

Add that to the significant number of routes and areas where most if not all services are operated by independents (Swilly in North Donegal, Suirway in South East Waterford, JJ Kavanagh in Carlow, Bernard Kavanagh in Kilkenny/Tipp/Laoise, etc) the idea that BE are a monopoly in any sense is ridiculous.

markpb wrote: »

Bus Eireann are big enough that they're able to push up prices to cover an increase in costs. Smaller companies don't (generally) have that luxury which is why most private operators haven't put up their prices.

I really don't get that logic at all. I do not see how the relative size of a company is relevant at all.

markpb wrote: »

btw I'm not criticising BE for putting up their prices, I'm just saying that the excuse that diesel has gone up is not enough of a reason.

The increase in costs (fuel is not the only cost that has risen) is one part of the reason but it would be fair to say that the drop in fare revenue is the major issue. Less fare-paying passengers are travelling meaning less fare revenue. Services that once comfortably covered their costs are now dropping into loss making territory and without something to improve the revenue they are unsustainable.

My gut says that in the coming months there will be a lot of fare increases in the private sector as well, maybe I am wrong and it is only BE who are struggling but in general I haven't seen a huge gulf in the relative loadings of services run by other operators.

Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

On what basis are you making this assertion?

Or is it an assumption?

Who knows? Who cares. Like most of the facts he posts it is unmitigated rubbish. Timetables are done in house and then go through the process of submission to the DOT (now NTA) as I understand it the changes made to the route 4 timetable were drawn up and submitted to the DOT some time ago and part of the reason journey times are not accurate is that when they were submitted the M9 was not yet open.

It is also fair to say that even taking into account that issue the running times on that timetable are hoplessly inaccurate. Something it has in common with many recently altered timetables.

foggy_lad

Vic_08 wrote: »

the changes made to the route 4 timetable were drawn up and submitted to the DOT some time ago and part of the reason journey times are not accurate is that when they were submitted the M9 was not yet open.

It is also fair to say that even taking into account that issue the running times on that timetable are hoplessly inaccurate. Something it has in common with many recently altered timetables.

The M9 was open for over a year before the timetable actually changed! How far ahead do these clowns submit changes to timetables?

The fact that the new timetable does not have stops in Castledermot, Kilcullen or Naas just shows the motorway was open and was even being used on a regular basis as well as being used for at least 2express buses a day each direction from after Castledermot.

The most likely reason the timings are way off is that the timetables were drawn up using historic passenger and traffic information along with the old timings but not taking into account less stops and the time saved by not going through Naas and Kilcullen at peak times by someone with no knowledge of the route or of passenger coach services.

There are also a few glaringly obvious timing mistakes on the new timetable which remain unchanged despite Bus Eireann being aware of them!

Niles

I don't think it's unheard of for timetables to be submitted way before they're actually approved; IIRC BÉ submitted its revised 002 timetable a long time before they actually got the go-ahead to implement it.

foggy_lad

Niles wrote: »

I don't think it's unheard of for timetables to be submitted way before they're actually approved; IIRC BÉ submitted its revised 002 timetable a long time before they actually got the go-ahead to implement it.

Nothing wrong with that at all, in fact it would show them as being somewhat prepared and progressive but to forget/neglect something as basic and essential as updating the revisions when the route between Carlow-Dublin changed almost in its entirety is a massive oversight and shows a level of incompetence deserving of instant dismissal!

pelluci

foggy_lad wrote: »

What route are these fares for?

There for Carlow - Dublin this Wednesday. Seeing as the train's only €15.40 return (plus Luas) it's hard to justify getting the bus.

foggy_lad

pelluci wrote: »

There for Carlow - Dublin this Wednesday. Seeing as the train's only €15.40 return (plus Luas) it's hard to justify getting the bus.

Oh they are the new on-line fares! I was a bit confused over the midweek return now being the same price as the day and monthly return!

As for your special offer fare to Dublin on the train it suits your needs but those tickets are only valid after 9.30am Monday-Friday, The normal fare to Heuston is in the region of €18.50 single/return

pelluci

foggy_lad wrote: »

Oh they are the new on-line fares! I was a bit confused over the midweek return now being the same price as the day and monthly return!

As for your special offer fare to Dublin on the train it suits your needs but those tickets are only valid after 9.30am Monday-Friday, The normal fare to Heuston is in the region of €18.50 single/return

€15.40 is what I'm quoted on-line, but then there's €2 per on-line booking and €1 for Visa or Mastercard, so that discount's gone. The machine in the station has 2 fares for one day return: €15.40 and €12, so I've no idea what it's going to cost me.

foggy_lad

pelluci wrote: »

€15.40 is what I'm quoted on-line, but then there's €2 per on-line booking and €1 for Visa or Mastercard, so that discount's gone. The machine in the station has 2 fares for one day return: €15.40 and €12, so I've no idea what it's going to cost me.

On Monday to Thursday and Saturday the booking office or telesales does a midweek fare of €15.40 PLUS extra for the Luas or bus, This increases to the normal fare of €18.50 on Fridays and Sundays.

If you thought that was a bit confusing there is currently an offer for fares from Carlow of €12 available for journeys after 9.30 Monday to Friday and €15 Saturday and Sunday but only for journeys single or day return starting in Carlow, also these are only available in the booking office AFAIK and again the Luas or bus add-on costs extra on top of these fares.