Bus Eireann prices

Howlin

Do anyone of you know if Bus Eireann are increasing there prices from wexford to dublin in Jan 2012?

AlekSmart

Yes they are,by approx 5% it seems.....the entire mishmash is here...

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Cie-operators-fares-increases-Dec-2011.pdf

Cudda been worse.

Carawaystick

Would ya not check the private operator on the route for fares?


o/t
It's peculiar that Dublin to Drogheda is listed as a commuter route by BÉ but Dublin to Wicklow a similar distance isn't listed as a commuter route.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would ya not check the private operator on the route for fares?


o/t
It's peculiar that Dublin to Drogheda is listed as a commuter route by BÉ but Dublin to Wicklow a similar distance isn't listed as a commuter route.

It does say that they are examples directly above the table and therefore not exhaustive. Dublin/Wicklow is definitely a commuter service.

Niles

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would ya not check the private operator on the route for fares?

At the moment there isn't much difference between Bus Éireann and Wexford Bus day fares, a day return from Wexford town to Dublin (city) is €19.50 with BÉ, Wexford Bus offering an anytime return at €20. Likewise the day return fare from Gorey is the same (€18). However, when it comes to monthly returns the differences become apparent; BÉ charge €24 in this regard. Similarly Wexford Bus are already significantly cheaper when it comes to weekly tickets (€60 for an adult Wexford-Dublin versus BÉ charging €66.70 for a 10-journey ticket on the same route).

Wexford Bus already have edge (south of Arklow) in terms of journey times, with BÉ really only winning on frequency here. So taking all this into account one might question the wisdom of further fare increases on the 002, it'll only drive its County Wexford passengers to the competition. Granted it probably won't affect the Arklow business as badly simply because the Wexford Bus stop is less than conveniently placed outside the town itself.

It will be nearly three years since the fares went up but bear in mind they actually went up twice on the 002 in 2009. From memory in January 2009 the adult return fare from Gorey to Dublin rose from €15 to €16, going up to €18 around late February/March, presumably to do with the increased service, but if goes any further it will have been quite a significant price rise over the less than half a decade.

AlekSmart

Niles wrote: »

Wexford Bus already have edge (south of Arklow) in terms of journey times, with BÉ really only winning on frequency here. So taking all this into account one might question the wisdom of further fare increases on the 002, it'll only drive its County Wexford passengers to the competition. Granted it probably won't affect the Arklow business as badly simply because the Wexford Bus stop is less than conveniently placed outside the town itself.

.

Niles,not being a Sunny South-Easter myself,how do Wexford Bus manage to achieve the better journey times vs BÉ ?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Niles,not being a Sunny South-Easter myself,how do Wexford Bus manage to achieve the better journey times vs BÉ ?

Arklow is a request stop meaning that if you wish to be collected there heading south you must ring beforehand to arrange pickup, also their busses don't go into Arklow but pickup out on the old Dublin road which probably saves a lot of time. They also take a different route through the city centre and have less stops in Dublin.

parsi

Do Wexford Bus accept free travel passes ? Are they strict ?

PseudoFamous

If Wexford bus now have a higher potential to grab customers from Wexford, surely BE should be renumbering a few of the buses which serve as commuting runs in Gorey and Arklow to 384s, saving a few pennies by not travelling as far as Rosslare with an empty bus.

AlekSmart

parsi wrote: »

Do Wexford Bus accept free travel passes ? Are they strict ?

Strict...?

I'm curious Parsi......

Darkglasses

Wexford bus 10 journey flexi ticket is the way to go. 80 clams, lasts forever.

juan.kerr

AlekSmart wrote: »

Strict...?

I'm curious Parsi......

Do private operators generally accept free travel passes? Is there some scheme for them to claim back the cost of the journey or something? Would imagine it would be difficult to administer.

Pretty Polly

juan.kerr wrote: »

Do private operators generally accept free travel passes? Is there some scheme for them to claim back the cost of the journey or something? Would imagine it would be difficult to administer.

My granny and her sister were going to Wexford and they got the Ardcavan bus. They had their travel passes so it didn't cost them anything. They usually get the Bus Eireann bus when they are going down to Wexford but they said the Ardcavan bus was much faster as it doesn't stop in Wicklow.

http://www.ardcavan.com/dublin_september_2011.pdf

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

Do Wexford Bus accept free travel passes ? Are they strict ?

http://wexfordbus.com/fares/wexford-dublin-city/

According to their website they accept the free travel pass on all routes.

And I doubt they would be strict unless you arrived after departure when they probably would not let you travel!

but if you mean do they check passes and look for photo id i would think they might have a system like JJ Kavanagh's where those with Free passes must fill out a ticket with their name address and pps number as well as date of travel and start and end points, AFAIK JJ Kavanagh's also reserve the right to ask for passport driving licence or other photo id if you are not known to the driver/staff

Niles

AlekSmart wrote: »

Niles,not being a Sunny South-Easter myself,how do Wexford Bus manage to achieve the better journey times vs BÉ ?

The buses bypass Arklow town using the motorway, the stop is located some way outside of the town itself (on the old Dublin road, towards the Rubgy club). At peak times avoiding the Arklow traffic would make a difference (the fact that BÉ have five stops in Arklow doesn't help). I suspect this gives them something of an edge in terms of journey times.

PseudoFamous

Niles wrote: »

The buses bypass Arklow town using the motorway, the stop is located some way outside of the town itself (on the old Dublin road, towards the Rubgy club). At peak times avoiding the Arklow traffic would make a difference (the fact that BÉ have five stops in Arklow doesn't help). I suspect this gives them something of an edge in terms of journey times.

They also refuse to go through Ashford or stop anywhere along the N11 until you get to Dublin, which gives them another edge.

parsi

AlekSmart wrote: »

parsi wrote: »

Do Wexford Bus accept free travel passes ? Are they strict ?

Strict...?

I'm curious Parsi......

Foggy answered it for me. I was wondering how strict they were with free passes and it appears that they may require additional photo ID.

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

Foggy answered it for me. I was wondering how strict they were with free passes and it appears that they may require additional photo ID.

I have seen similar ticket type forms on city link busses to Galway and on Matthews coaches for those with free travel/pensioners so the use of them may be widespread but I do not know about asking for additional photo ID for private operators, but I would think as private operators they would reserve the right to refuse to carry any person for any reason including not proving they were the person listed on their free pass, where bus Eireann can only refuse on certain very limited grounds.

XxMCRxBabyxX

PseudoFamous wrote: »

They also refuse to go through Ashford or stop anywhere along the N11 until you get to Dublin, which gives them another edge.

Doesn't the 002 only stop in Ashford/Wicklow on the late night and early morning buses?

PseudoFamous

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Doesn't the 002 only stop in Ashford/Wicklow on the late night and early morning buses?

Seems to stop in Ashford if you ask the driver, too. I know as someone seems to always gets on at Jack White's and asks to go to Ashford, when I only have afternoon lectures and I'll be late if we go through Ashford.

L1011

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Seems to stop in Ashford if you ask the driver, too. I know as someone seems to always gets on at Jack White's and asks to go to Ashford, when I only have afternoon lectures and I'll be late if we go through Ashford.

The 05:30/09:30 ex Rosslare stops in Ashford, the rest in the morning should not even on request. Moan to BE if its not those buses to get the driver to tell said person to get off and wait for whatever the proper bus is.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have seen similar ticket type forms on city link busses to Galway and on Matthews coaches for those with free travel/pensioners so the use of them may be widespread but I do not know about asking for additional photo ID for private operators, but I would think as private operators they would reserve the right to refuse to carry any person for any reason including not proving they were the person listed on their free pass, where bus Eireann can only refuse on certain very limited grounds.

Thanks for that info Foggy. I don't see why the public operators should be made less able to control false use of passes. Ultimately the tax-payer has to pay.

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

Thanks for that info Foggy. I don't see why the public operators should be made less able to control false use of passes. Ultimately the tax-payer has to pay.

Maybe you should take the matter up with some individual group or organisation that can do something about the current situation?

TechnoFreek

Does anyone know what date the BE prices are due to increase?
Rail went up today but I don't see any mention of bus.

Thanks

Niles

TechnoFreek wrote: »

Does anyone know what date the BE prices are due to increase?
Rail went up today but I don't see any mention of bus.

Thanks

Bus Éireann's provincial city service fares were meant to go up today (4th January), according to their website. Doesn't say anything about other fares though.

Not sure what the story is with Expressway and Commuter fares in general, but 10-journey and Taxsaver tickets are going up according to the NTA's official statement:

NTA wrote:

In relation to Bus Éireann, increases of 5.4% on city and stage coach services have been approved.
An increase of 5.1% has been approved for weekly 10 journey rates on Provincial City, Commuter
and Local Service. A 3% increase for the annual tax saver tickets on Provincial City, Commuter and
Local Services has been approved. In general the increases sought by Bus Éireann have been
approved given that their fares had not been increased since 2009. The Leap Card will be extended
to include Greater Dublin Area Bus Éireann services and some private operator services in 2012

IIRC the NTA rejected BÉ's application for an increase when IÉ and DB fares rose earlier this year also.

Niles

Apparently the rest of the fares are going up from Wednesday 18th January:
http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=1057&month=Jan

Bus &#201 wrote: »

Customer Information re: Fares

Bus Éireann wishes to advise customers that increased fares will apply on Expressway, Commuter and Stage Carriage services from Wednesday, 18 January 2012.
An average increase of approximately 5% will apply to all Single and Return fares. An average increase of approximately 5% will apply to all 10 Journey and City Weekly/Monthly Commuter fares. An average increase of 3% will apply to annual Taxsaver fares.
Discounted and promotional fares will also be increased.
For details of revised fares, please contact your local Bus Éireann office or Travel Centre.

Dublin (01) 836 6111 Limerick (061) 313333
Cork (021) 450 8188 Galway (091) 562000
Waterford (051) 879000 Dundalk (042) 933 4075
Tralee (066) 716 4700 Sligo (071) 916 0066
Athlone (090) 648 4406

Wednesday, 11th January, 2012

---

With regard to Wexford Bus, their fares are going up from January 23rd:
http://wexfordbus.com/page/fare-adjustments-from-23rd-january-2012/

Wexford Bus wrote:

Fare Adjustments from 23rd January 2012

11:39 am, January 9, 2012
Wexford Bus is introducing a range of new fares from January 23rd 2012.

In order to maintain the level of service and standards provided, a reluctant decision has been taken to increase a selection of the fares. This price increase is due to a 25% rise in fuel costs in the last 12 months coupled with the 2% VAT increase (which cannot be reclaimed) and a 30% hike in insurance costs since the last fare adjustment.

Wexford Bus will continue to offer excellent value to its customers. For example:

• Annual tax saver tickets are available at €24 net per week (after tax and USC relief) an increase of only €1.38 per week.
• Weekly student tickets start at €6 per journey between Enniscorthy and Dublin, an increase of €1 per trip.

This is not a decision that we have taken lightly, but all Wexford Bus services must be self financing as no grants or subsidies are received to support the services. Thus, with the steep rise in operational costs these increases are unavoidable.

For full details see www.wexfordbus.com/fares

Niles

Got the bus yesterday for the first time after the change, my day-return fare had risen from €18 to €19.50, a steep enough increase, quite above the average 5% increase.

PseudoFamous

Niles wrote: »

Got the bus yesterday for the first time after the change, my day-return fare had risen from €18 to €19.50, a steep enough increase, quite above the average 5% increase.

only 8% to be fair.

Niles

I suppose, it's 50c per year (reasonable enough) if you consider that there were no increases in the last three years (though most 002 fares went up twice in 2009). All the same, the same fare was €15.00 this time four years ago, quite a big leap.

markpb

PseudoFamous wrote: »

only 8% to be fair.

CPI for 2011 was 2.5%.

PseudoFamous

markpb wrote: »

CPI for 2011 was 2.5%.

and what was the percentage increase for diesel over the last three years? bit more than 8%, I suspect.

markpb

PseudoFamous wrote: »

and what was the percentage increase for diesel over the last three years? bit more than 8%, I suspect.

Do they reduce their prices when the price of diesel falls? If the price of diesel is rising so much, should we expect price hikes from Aircoach and JJ Kavanagh?

Niles

My main concern is that in the same period people's wages have generally decreased or remained the same... this trend is unlikely to change any time soon so it's worrying what the case may be in a few years time. So far Wexford Bus have stated that they'll raising commuter/multi-day fares, not singles/returns, so that may give them an edge when it comes to places from Gorey southwards. Unless of course they too choose to increase their remaining fares at some point.

That said, I understand the reasons behind the increases. But it's not going to make public transport particularly attractive.

PseudoFamous

markpb wrote: »

Do they reduce their prices when the price of diesel falls?

The price of diesel has net increased over the last years, so despite the answer probably being "no", I'm not able to commit to that answer.

markpb wrote: »

If the price of diesel is rising so much, should we expect price hikes from Aircoach and JJ Kavanagh?

Yes. The price of operation is increasing, so it is fair to assume that the price of a ticket will increase. A private service aims to make profit, and if the cost of operation increases, so does the ticket price.

markpb

PseudoFamous wrote: »

A private service aims to make profit, and if the cost of operation increases, so does the ticket price.

Not necessarily. A private company that does not enjoy an effective monopoly won't push up their prices if it means they'll lose customers or cause their customers to buy their product less often.

foggy_lad

THe website is still showing the old fares but Dublin to Carlow is now €14 return a jump of €2 which seems excessive?

Service 4
11.00 : Adult Single
12.00 : Adult Rtn
11.00 : Adult Day Rtn
7.50 : Child Single
9.00 : Child Return
8.00 : Child Day Rtn
9.00 : Student Single
10.50 : Student Rtn
9.00 : Adult MW Rtn
7.00 : Child MW Rtn
31.00 : Family Rtn
37.50 : Adult 10 Jny
33.00 : Student 10 Jny

Boscoirl

Single fare from Clonmel to Limerick is now €13, up from €11 (but at least now a return fare is cheaper than 2 singles!) When I first started getting this bus it was €8(~2008)

Used to get this bus regularly, but now will go back to using my car, petrol and toll for the tunnel work out cheaper, and its twice as quick

bk

PseudoFamous wrote: »

and what was the percentage increase for diesel over the last three years? bit more than 8%, I suspect.

And what percentage of Bus Eireanns operating costs is diesel?

Answer: less then 9%

Well over 50% of the operating cost is salary.

Increases in diesel prices should have very little impact on ticket prices. Not if they didn't have a subsidised monopoly.

Niles

foggy_lad wrote: »

THe website is still showing the old fares but Dublin to Carlow is now €14 return a jump of €2 which seems excessive?

Did the 004 increase in service frequency and/or get faster journey times (avoiding villages) in the last year? The reason I ask is that when the 002 route increased its service in 2009 the fares went up twice within a month or so, the second increase was by €2 in my case and supposedly due to the better service (even though places like Inch/Clough got a reduced service but that's another issue).

Not trying to justify it mind, but that might be why.

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

Not necessarily. A private company that does not enjoy an effective monopoly won't push up their prices if it means they'll lose customers or cause their customers to buy their product less often.

You say BE have a monopoly in the same breath as you compare prices with direct competitors. Typical C&T BS, twisting the facts to suit your arguement.

Vic_08

Niles wrote: »

Did the 004 increase in service frequency and/or get faster journey times (avoiding villages) in the last year?

Yes. Altered timetable with wider range of departures and non-stop Carlow-Dublin.

It is also worth noting that Carlow-Dublin in particular has much lower fares in comparison with many other journeys of similar distance on other routes.

Niles wrote: »

The reason I ask is that when the 002 route increased its service in 2009 the fares went up twice within a month or so, the second increase was by €2 in my case and supposedly due to the better service (even though places like Inch/Clough got a reduced service but that's another issue).

Inch and Clough are barely villages, there must be thousands of places across the country with larger populations than these that have no public transport whatsoever.

It is interesting that you make that comment after yourself and others have also complained about the longer journey times due to the extra stops. I think you will find that catering for both of those concerns at the same time is quite impossible.

foggy_lad

Niles wrote: »

Did the 004 increase in service frequency and/or get faster journey times (avoiding villages) in the last year? The reason I ask is that when the 002 route increased its service in 2009 the fares went up twice within a month or so, the second increase was by €2 in my case and supposedly due to the better service (even though places like Inch/Clough got a reduced service but that's another issue).

Not trying to justify it mind, but that might be why.

AFAIK there are less daily services after the route was changed and they are spread out more evenly meaning that at peak times there used to be more frequent buses but now there is less capacity and empty coaches travelling through the night competing with the operator who was already providing services to and from the airport.

Also the journey times have increased despite losing stops at Castledermot, Kilcullen and Naas because the buses travel painfully slow at 80kph on the motorway and Naas rd when they are allowed do 100kph. this is due to the sheer stupidity of the company in outsourcing the timetable production to some company that may not even be in Ireland and who may never have seen or travelled the route! Instead of cutting the time allowed for the section to Carlow by 10 minutes they added 5 minutes! Most coaches can get to Carlow now with 10-20minutes to spare if they drive at the speed limit on the motorway also Bus Eireann delay passengers even more by the stupid stop at Red Cow Park & Ride which is used a few times a week.

It looks like they are trying to make the Train more attractive!

markpb

Vic_08 wrote: »

You say BE have a monopoly in the same breath as you compare prices with direct competitors. Typical C&T BS, twisting the facts to suit your arguement.

You need to read before you criticise - I was extremely specific when I said effective monopoly. If they have 90% or greater of the market share, they have an effective monopoly. 90% was enough to see Microsoft and other large companies sued for abuse of monopoly.

Bus Eireann are big enough that they're able to push up prices to cover an increase in costs. Smaller companies don't (generally) have that luxury which is why most private operators haven't put up their prices.

btw I'm not criticising BE for putting up their prices, I'm just saying that the excuse that diesel has gone up is not enough of a reason.

LXFlyer

foggy_lad wrote: »

this is due to the sheer stupidity of the company in outsourcing the timetable production to some company that may not even be in Ireland and who may never have seen or travelled the route!

On what basis are you making this assertion?

Or is it an assumption?

pelluci

foggy_lad wrote: »

THe website is still showing the old fares but Dublin to Carlow is now €14 return a jump of €2 which seems excessive?

Not as excessive as the Adult Midweek Return, which is also €14, a €5 increase

Adult Single €11.40
Student Single €9.50
Child Single €5.70
Adult Midweek Return €13.30
Child Midweek Return €7.60
Adult Day Return €13.30
Child Day Return €7.60
Adult Return €13.30
Student Return €11.40
Child Return €8.55
Family Return €30.88
Adult 10 Journey €39.90
Student 10 Journey €33.25

Niles

Vic_08 wrote: »

Inch and Clough are barely villages, there must be thousands of places across the country with larger populations than these that have no public transport whatsoever.

It is interesting that you make that comment after yourself and others have also complained about the longer journey times due to the extra stops. I think you will find that catering for both of those concerns at the same time is quite impossible.

I don't believe I complained about longer journey times to cater for extra stops (others may have), I merely pointed out that as being the reason why Wexford Bus has the edge over Bus Éireann in terms of journey times. It was more a statement of fact than an actual complaint.

I understand Inch/Clough are barely villages, I just meant that in the case of these locations the increase in fare may not be reflective of the actual service level. Although in fairness local fares (to/from Gorey) remained the same.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

On what basis are you making this assertion?

Or is it an assumption?

Information from a Bus Eireann driver after the timetable was changed, he stated drivers were not consulted in any way about the changes and that an outside company was creating the timetables purely from information on the routes and passenger numbers taken over the last year.

pelluci wrote: »

Not as excessive as the Adult Midweek Return, which is also €14, a €5 increase

Adult Single €11.40
Student Single €9.50
Child Single €5.70
Adult Midweek Return €13.30
Child Midweek Return €7.60
Adult Day Return €13.30
Child Day Return €7.60
Adult Return €13.30
Student Return €11.40
Child Return €8.55
Family Return €30.88
Adult 10 Journey €39.90
Student 10 Journey €33.25

What route are these fares for?

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

You need to read before you criticise - I was extremely specific when I said effective monopoly. If they have 90% or greater of the market share, they have an effective monopoly. 90% was enough to see Microsoft and other large companies sued for abuse of monopoly.

90% of what? It is all very well pointing out that BE are the largest single scheduled operator but that in itself does not make a monopoly.

Take a look at the list of services for which licences have been granted by the DOT/NTA http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/List-of-Current-Licences-311211.xls This is not a small list of a few peripheral services, there are considerably more entries on that than BE routes.

Of course there are any number of ways you could measure the figures: Number of routes; Number of buses in use; Number of services provided; Annual route miles; Annual passenger miles, etc. As there is currently very little publicly available information on the entirety of the non-CIE services the best anyone can do is make vague estimates but the existence of over 600 licences alone is a good indicator that there is not a monopoly in any real sense.

Like it or not no matter what methods are used to organise public transport, from the most controlled to a completely deregulated free-for-all on a local level there are always going to be more instances of single operator routes than multiple choice ones. Many flows simply are not lucrative enough to sustain competing services and even on ones that are there is a natural tendency for a dominant operator to emerge.

The question then is how much of the busiest routes/flows that could reasonably be expected to sustain more than one operator do BE have all to themselves. The answer to that I would give a rough guess at approx 25-35%.

Add that to the significant number of routes and areas where most if not all services are operated by independents (Swilly in North Donegal, Suirway in South East Waterford, JJ Kavanagh in Carlow, Bernard Kavanagh in Kilkenny/Tipp/Laoise, etc) the idea that BE are a monopoly in any sense is ridiculous.

markpb wrote: »

Bus Eireann are big enough that they're able to push up prices to cover an increase in costs. Smaller companies don't (generally) have that luxury which is why most private operators haven't put up their prices.

I really don't get that logic at all. I do not see how the relative size of a company is relevant at all.

markpb wrote: »

btw I'm not criticising BE for putting up their prices, I'm just saying that the excuse that diesel has gone up is not enough of a reason.

The increase in costs (fuel is not the only cost that has risen) is one part of the reason but it would be fair to say that the drop in fare revenue is the major issue. Less fare-paying passengers are travelling meaning less fare revenue. Services that once comfortably covered their costs are now dropping into loss making territory and without something to improve the revenue they are unsustainable.

My gut says that in the coming months there will be a lot of fare increases in the private sector as well, maybe I am wrong and it is only BE who are struggling but in general I haven't seen a huge gulf in the relative loadings of services run by other operators.

Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

On what basis are you making this assertion?

Or is it an assumption?

Who knows? Who cares. Like most of the facts he posts it is unmitigated rubbish. Timetables are done in house and then go through the process of submission to the DOT (now NTA) as I understand it the changes made to the route 4 timetable were drawn up and submitted to the DOT some time ago and part of the reason journey times are not accurate is that when they were submitted the M9 was not yet open.

It is also fair to say that even taking into account that issue the running times on that timetable are hoplessly inaccurate. Something it has in common with many recently altered timetables.

foggy_lad

Vic_08 wrote: »

the changes made to the route 4 timetable were drawn up and submitted to the DOT some time ago and part of the reason journey times are not accurate is that when they were submitted the M9 was not yet open.

It is also fair to say that even taking into account that issue the running times on that timetable are hoplessly inaccurate. Something it has in common with many recently altered timetables.

The M9 was open for over a year before the timetable actually changed! How far ahead do these clowns submit changes to timetables?

The fact that the new timetable does not have stops in Castledermot, Kilcullen or Naas just shows the motorway was open and was even being used on a regular basis as well as being used for at least 2express buses a day each direction from after Castledermot.

The most likely reason the timings are way off is that the timetables were drawn up using historic passenger and traffic information along with the old timings but not taking into account less stops and the time saved by not going through Naas and Kilcullen at peak times by someone with no knowledge of the route or of passenger coach services.

There are also a few glaringly obvious timing mistakes on the new timetable which remain unchanged despite Bus Eireann being aware of them!

Niles

I don't think it's unheard of for timetables to be submitted way before they're actually approved; IIRC BÉ submitted its revised 002 timetable a long time before they actually got the go-ahead to implement it.